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11 hours ago, The Johnster said:

'The Fire People' features several real life characters, including the ironmasters of course, but Dic Penderyn, the worker's leader hanged for stabbing a soldier, Private Donald Black, was also a real person, as was Black.  The trial was pretty much a foregone conclusion, Penderyn was a dead man before he entered the dock, despite the soldier making a signed statement that the man who stabbed him was not Dic Penderyn; this statement was ignored by Cardiff Assize Court at the trial.  Evidence against Penderyn was taken from a Merthyr barber who had a score to settle with the accused; he apparently confessed to lying on his death-bed many years later in America.  Huge crowds turned out from all over South Wales for the hanging, in support of Penderyn, who is regarded as a working class hero in the area to this day.

 

For matters concerning Cosher Bailey, 'Rape of the Fair Country', set in Blaenafon and Nantyglo and also by Alexander Cordell, is more the thing.  The 'Rape' series charts the story of several generations of the ficticious working-class Mortimer family, and the later books are tbh not as good or as well-researched as the earlier ones.  'The Fire People' is a standalone story set against the backdrop of the Merthyr uprising, during which the red flag of Socialism was first raised (on Hirwaun Common, a sheet soaked in the blood of a slaughtered sheep).

 

Bara neu Waed!

The other one I read was the first of the Rape series. I just couldn't remember the title (50 - odd years ago)

On 09/02/2024 at 02:47, The Johnster said:

I suspect the grave mentioned is that of the Cyfarthfa Ironmaster Richard Crawshay.  He was not quite cut from the same cloth as Cosher, who gave himself droit de seignneur on his workers' wives and daughters in exchange for employment and was more than happy to have anyone causing him problems quietly done away with and disposed of in the waste tip.  Richard Crawshay's house was Cyfarthfa Castle, more a luxury mansion than an actually defendable building, which is actually in Glamorgan by a few yards, the border being Cefn Coed bridge over the Taf Fawr on the Brecon Road just to the north of Cyfarthfa Castle's main entrance.  The workers' institute has a clock tower visible from the Castle, but has no clock on that side because they refused to give him the time of day...

 

There was a slum area owned by him and rented to the workers called 'China', roughly where the bus station is now.  It was situated between a churchyard and the river, and because there was no drainage, which as landowner he was responsible for providing, in heavy rain the churchyard would flood and the residents of China lived quite literally in the slurry of their own dead.  It was, as were other areas of the town, a breeding ground for Cholera and consumption was ever-present.  He threw a party at Cyfarthfa in 1829 which was reported as costing him £2,000, more than a million now, which would easily have provided proper drainage and sewerage systems for the entire town. 

 

Merthyr was by a considerable margin the largest town in Wales at that time, and growing rapidly, but had no mayor, council, constitution, by-laws, ordinances, or representation (the MP was either one of the Masters or in the Masters' pockets, and working men did not own property so could not vote anyway).  The ironmasters ran it in their own interests, not just the Crawshays but Lord Plymouth at Penydarren, Josiah Guest at Dowlais, and others.  Guest was a Quaker and something of a modifying influence on Crawshay's worst excesses, but by and large Crawshay, having the biggest ironworks and owning the most land, got his way.  There was no hospital, law and order were kept by the Masters' bully-boys, the Masters printed their own money to pay their workers, and of course it was only redeemable in their own shops.  These were always ready to hand out credit, resulting in half the workforce being in debt to the Masters; every aspect of their lives was controlled by these people.

 

Not surprising there were riots.

Years ago, I read a book called The Fire People by Alexander Cordell, about those working for Crawshay and Guest, and ending, IIRC with the hanging of the leader of an uprising; and another by him which ended with the Newport Rising.

On 08/02/2024 at 14:52, Ron Ron Ron said:

With Labour’s £28b flagship Green plans now thrown in the bin, what chance they can rustle up the money for restoring HS2 Phase 2a &b ?

 

 

.

I think the ambition is still there for a green plan; I think Labour have balked at putting a figure on the amount to be spent, so as not to give ammunition to the other side. I wish they'd stop worrying what commentators will say and be a bit bolder in their aspirations.

18 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Why not read the sources, the 31m is from the governments own website, though i grant you i’d not trust that either.

 

Putting it on vat? I’m not sure how that would work.

putting it on road tax however, would be interesting, that might level things up a little.

The point I was making was this; your 31 million people are those that pay income tax, but as I have pointed out above, that isn't the only tax that people pay, also there are quite a few adults that don't pay any tax at all; the discrepancy between the numbers on the voting register and those paying income tax shows that. VAT, on most goods to which it applies forms 16.6666.....% of the cost of purchase; 60 - 70% of the cost of motor fuel is tax.

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/statistics/finance/rail-industry-finance/
 

Rail industry income. £22bn.

 

However theres some paper money here… The govt gives Network Rail £7bn, but counts £3.4bn as “other income” recieved from Network Rail.

so perhaps its really a £18.6bn railway ?

The UK has 31million tax payers.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/income-tax-liabilities-statistics-tax-year-2020-to-2021-to-tax-year-2023-to-2024/bulletin-commentary#:~:text=5.1 Number of Income Tax,UK in 2020 to 2021.

(section 2.2)

 

So if the £18bn was divided by the 31mn, it works out £50 per month, and we could have a free to use railway network for everyone.. young and old.

 

That would decimate the car/road industry somewhat and push the green credentials up a notch.

£50 p/m (£600 per year) is a bargain, and a considerable saving to those currently using it.

 

 

Same old mistake of just taking income tax as "tax"; there are about 40, million people who able to vote (650 seats x average electorate of  62,000). Presumably they all buy VAT - registered goods, or some like alcoholic drinks, or smoke, or fill their vehicles with fuel, on which large amounts of other taxes are paid. Your cost may not be even that high! 

17 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

We won the war, it cost an empire and we lost the economic war.

 

The UK has been on a slide ever since.

 

The country has been feeding off empirical reputation and gradual global retreat since WW2 but that fat has largely burnt off.

Ask Argentina why they cancelled their HS rail project, the answer isnt that distant from ours.

 

 

 

 

 

You have to go back at least 30 years before the end of WW2 to find the start of the decline of the UK. 

1 minute ago, St Enodoc said:

 

Given the context of this topic I was referring to the UK. Of course there are many toll roads in the rest of the world and as my compatriot says above Sydney seems to have (more than?) its fair share (you can add to the list M2 and NorthConnex, now the M11, which is my local example).

 

Nevertheless, despite the fact that the tolls make a lot of money for the operators and the State Government, when compared with the construction costs I still wonder how many of them are "profitable" - and are they intended to be? We don't expect other public infrastructure to be "profitable" - schools, hospitals, libraries, police/ambulance/fire stations, etc, - so why should railways (and roads) be different?

Yet!

5 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

What if you were a "Waitrose" person and only had access to a "Lidl" or vice versa?

Are there no "Express" - type shops near you?  I have a small Coop, several other shops, a post office, a pharmacy, several fast food outlets, a vet, all four remaining local pubs, the railway station and several beauty salons within about 15 minutes walk, although I don't use the latter😁. The local town centre is only just outside these limits. I have walked to football matches, about 30 minutes on largely traffic - free routes, several times; I would say that not driving there is the norm.

For context, I am 71 years old in May, slightly overweight, and with slightly raised blood pressure

9 minutes ago, jollysmart said:

 

The proposed population density for the new build 5 minute cities is 260,000 people per Sq Km the present population density for London is 5, 596 per Sq KM I personally don't really fancy that.

Do you have a (non tinfoil hat conspiraloon) source for that?

22 minutes ago, DenysW said:

I'd hold judgement on that until they are the norm, the battery technology has stabilised, and the electricity network has reconfigured to renewable. Economies of scale and all that on the cars.

 

We might turn to electrically powered scooters - a change that appears already to have started.

Cars only became really "affordable" in the UK in the early 1950s, about 50 years after the first reliable types took  to the roads. Even then, without adequate fast roads, motor travel could be a toil; I can well remember it taking all day to travel from March to Dundee by road in 1963.

14 minutes ago, DenysW said:

The problem here is that even railwaymen cannot predict the future. The 1940s view was that steam was OK, and was going to be replaced by electricity. The 1960s view was that there was no long-term passenger use for railways, it was just  a case of managed shrinkage. Then road congestion kicked in and passenger numbers reversed. Now work-from-home is shaking down to a reliable proportion, and passengers numbers (I believe) are returning - but not  reliably on every weekday. Railwaymen would have been re-fighting the previous war every time.

 

I'd hold judgement on that until they are the norm, the battery technology has stabilised, and the electricity network has reconfigured to renewable. Economies of scale and all that on the cars.

 

We might turn to electrically powered scooters - a change that appears already to have started.

Or electric - powered or pedal assist bicycles and tricycles, for short journeys at least. I'm already seeing cargo bikes in major cities.

On 15 - minute cities; can anyone tell me the problem with having all the main requirements for civilised life with 15 minutes, either walking or other active travel means? There are too many cars on the road; too much space in towns and cities is given over to car parks. And so on.

17 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

1. The 1990s proposal to reopen the GC as a freight line was scuppered by almost as many Chiltern MPs as have protested against HS2, and it was a private project so they couldn't even complain about the cost to the taxpayer.

2. Removing a few intermodals per hour will not create anywhere near the extra WCML capacity that removing a dozen or more 125mph express services will do.

3. The difference in cost between building a completely new railway to modern standards and resurrecting an old railway formation - which has been lying derelict for over half a century - to the same modern standards, is surprisingly small.  Look at what it cost (compared to the original budget) to re-open the Waverley Route to Tweedbank and consider that a significant length of that line is single track, so actually has less capacity than the original formation was capable of carrying.

Not to mention the need to demolish structures built on the old formation, and to evict two preserved railways!

9 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

A piece from the BBC website today,   https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68217031

 

John.

Given the way that the project has been kneecapped by two of the last three governments (the second didn't get a chance, it only lasted 49 days), should that really be a surprise?

On 05/02/2024 at 13:00, KeithMacdonald said:

 

For that classic reason, and the reasons mentioned by @Classsix T ...

 

 

... we see much less "on the ground" reporting by MSM operatives of what is actually happening from where it happens. It's easier to dehumanise the "enemy" when all we get are press releases being read by aquiescent news readers, with no explanation of how or why they became an "enemy".

Part of that is surely that MSM operators are now "embedded" with the force they are reporting from, and are only able to report on that which they are allowed to see, or be told about via a press release. The hundred - odd journalists killed in Gaza are doing the world a favour.

Whjat sort of tonnage are those bunker barges?

11 minutes ago, 4630 said:

TransPennine Express 802204 sweeps through Deighton with a service from Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle.

 

 

This view showing evidence of Transpennine Route Upgrade work that's currently in progress.  A site meeting was also underway.

 

 

I take it that the reinstated lines are going through the cutting where the digger is, rather than on the other side of the station?

6 hours ago, PrincePalatine2551 said:

Check out these fascinating Hughes 2-6-0 and 4-4-2 locomotive concepts.

Inspired by the iconic Crab, the Hughes Atlantic and 4-6-0 would have been a groundbreaking addition to the railway world. If Hughes had chosen to pursue this design, these locomotives might have been constructed before his retirement in 1926. I believe Hughes had a Pacific design in mind, although it never materialized.

Unfortunately, the LMS faced a setback because of the "small engine policy," delaying the introduction of larger engines until the Royal Scot, engineered by Fowler, came into existence in 1927. Imagine the possibilities if these imaginative Hughes locomotives had seen the light of day!

The top one looks like a 4 - 6 - 0 to me; is the ashpan behind  the rear coupled wheels?

On 20/01/2024 at 19:16, Jeremy Cumberland said:

I don't recall mention of Parliamentary trains at all in early 20th Century fiction (or in train timetables, for that matter), so my guess is that the idea ended with with the 1883 Act.

The idea of the Parliamentary Train  lingered on among railway workers; immediately after the first collision at Quintinshill (May 1915) one of the signalmaen inquired of the other " What's happened ?"; to which the other replied "My God Jimmy, you've got the Parly standing there" (according to LTC Rolt, anyway).

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

It's criminally insane to sell land / property purchased for the Manchester (and Golborne link) lines.

 

As we march forward to 2050 etc (net zero) the line will be needed at some point.

 

The route must be kept and mothballed. Property and farmland etc bought can be rented / leased, always with the proviso of future railway construction.

 

But our Governments of all colours only see ££££, mostly for themselves and their mates.

 

What a mess we are in.

 

Brit15

 

 

Bears repeating, again and again; the price of everything and the value of nothing. It's not confined only to public bodies, either. You'd be surprised at how many private bodies, when putting capital projects out to tender, only look at the installation costs, rather than those over the whole life of the installation.

43 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Reviving an old thread, and wandering slightly OT, the Underground system was not included in the grouping. I've read elsewhere that in 1933 they were "taken into public ownership, rather than full nationalisation".

What is the difference between public ownership and nationalisation?

You say "potayto, I say portarto"

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

Once the land has been sold off, it will be uber expensive to reacquire, if it hasn't been developed already. I think phase 2 is dead and buried, deliberately so.

Going back to a previous post; if a railway scheme has passed Parliament and been signed of by Her Maj, can the government just sell off the land detailed in the act? Crewe - Manchester, no problem, but Handsacre - Crewe?

Some of the Rose Hill trains which run round the Hyde Loop (Hyde Jct. - Romiley) are certainly 195s

Certainly at Handsacre, that seems to be the case.

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I'm not sure of the exact details off the top of my head but I do remember several members more familiar with NW England being very derisive about the spur terminating where it did for capacity issues.

 

The nub of the matter is that from wherever HS2 finishes up to Lancaster there needs to be a continuous 4 track railway up to Preston. If that can be done by simply reinstating 'rationalised infrastructure then thats great - but from other peoples comments I understood that parts of it have only ever been double track and would therefore require widening 

The chap with the knowledge of railways around Wigan is Apollo.

9 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

9 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

One of the big criticisms of the Golborne spur (and why it got binned a long time before  ahead of the rest of phase Phase 2B cancelled) was precisely the way it dumped all traffic back onto the WCML just as that reduced to double track!

 

To make the spur effective you would need to spend yet more money either widening the WCML through Wigan to create a 4 track railway all the way to Preston or extend HS2 to full-fill that function.

 

As such it makes zero sense to just build the Crewe - Golborne bit of phase 2 as if the cash needed to build it was available then it money would better be invested in upgrades of the WCML pinch points north of Crewe and would most likely be enough to deal with all the bottlenecks right through to Preston.

 

Now building HS2 as a Crewe - Preston line (and thus bypassing ALL the bottlenecks in one hit) is a different matter....

Now building HS2 as a Crewe - Preston line (and thus bypassing ALL the bottlenecks in one hit) is a different matter....

Agreed! Crossing the Ribble might be fun, but it makes sense to do it properly. Make the junction somewhere around Garstang!