Gerrard

It struck me today when I was looking at a picture of an 0-4-2, that I'm not sure what purpose a trailing bogie has. I understand that leading bogies help guide a locomotive around curves, so what does a training bogie do?

One potential answer of course is that it serves the same purpose as a leading bogie (to guide around curves), but for when the locomotive is in reverse. Fair enough, but why then do most locomotives have different size front and rear bogies if they are doing the same job? And in some cases (as below), have a rear bogies but nothing at the front?

Anyone know?

Thanks.

On 08/11/2013 at 20:19, mike tugsandsheds said:

I was actually a 15 year old volunteer at Dinting and actually Cleaned and Fired on the loco.

 

I have my own Dapol Model of "Warrington" in my collection.

 

Fond memories of giving brake van rides.

 

Shame about the site

Actually, I was too from age about 7 - 12 when I used to go there most Sundays with my dad. I also have a Dapol 'Warrington' in my collection.

And yes, it is sad to see the place now all overgrown and derelict. Broke my heart when I visited about 12 months ago while up that way. Was nice to see the old original engine shed still stood there solid still, if looking rather forlorn. I remember when it was vibrant and busy (with the cafe next door) and people working on the restoration of Scots Guardsman. Happy days!

On 02/12/2019 at 18:41, montyburns56 said:

Nice! I remember the old girl when she was at the Dinting Railway centre

Me too. When I was a child my dad and I were members at Dinting and used to go up there most Sundays to help out. As a member I remember being allowed to ride in the back of RS8 while she was on shunting duties, preparing and moving the loco's for the days activities. So it's wonderful to see her back to (probably) better than new, especially after seeing the picture showing the terrible state she got into.

Congrats to the team that put all the hard work in to acquire, move and restore her. Well done!

21 hours ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

@Gerrard
 

1. Yes, the wire is a spiral with the ends inside the brass, or tinned brass, caps.

 

2. From the photos, I would say 4 or possibly 5 turns. I’ll have to look at an actual element...none to hand just now.

 

 

EDIT: 

 

Looking at elements, it varies between 3 and four visible turns between the end caps.

 

I would say four turns is most likely, the end caps covering most of one turn in those shewing three turns.

 

3. A job for someone?

4. Dimensions. I would have to measure one, none to hand just now.

 

EDIT:

 

There appear to be at least two types of end cap.

 

One type has two splits and is otherwise round.

 

The, presumably later, type is crimped into place, and has flats where the crimp took has squeezed the round end cap. 
 

The later type have been seen in plain brass or plated brass, tinned? 
 

Earlier split end caps:-

 

Length over end caps 11mm.

 

Diameter over end caps 3.5 to 4mm.

 

 

Later Crimped type:-

 

Length over end caps 11mm.

 

 

Diameter over end caps 4mm.

 

 

There appears to be a layer of a fire retardant material on the later type.

 

This is usually a variety of shades of red to pink on the new ones I have seen.

 

 

 

5. The X.549 element core from a broken example that I have seen had a hollow ceramic core. I am certain that it was always empty.

 

EDIT:

 

I have looked up a broken element.

 

This has the split end caps.
 

The core is solid.

 

It seems to be 3mm in Diameter.

 

 

 

Additional:

 

There is often a brass plate with two holes under the actual smoke unit, between the unit casting and the locomotive chassis block.

 

One hole is around the unit to chassis block fixing screw.

 

I think that the purpose of this was to both improve electrical conduction between the unit and chassis block, and possibly as a distance shim, to improve the meshing of the SS unit air pump driving gear on the loco motor worm.

 

 

@33C

 

That’s all very well, but watch out that the baby oil doesn’t damage the heating element....

 

Proper smoke oil is easily available...

 

 

Thanks Ruff, very kind to provide all that detail.

So, the element has the following:

- Brass Ends

- Ceramic Core

- Restistance Wire Wrapping

A few questions if someone knows please:

1. I presume the wire is wrapped in a spiral, linking the two brass caps?

2. How many turns does the wire have?

3. Please can someone with an original element measure the resistance between the two brass caps please?

4. Also, can somone provide the dimensions please? Length, Cap Diameter and Ceramic Diameter

5. Lastly, do we know if the ceramic core is hollow? If it is, does it contain anything?

Just trying to figure out the technology with a view to designing a home brew alternative 

Thanks all.

20 hours ago, smokebox said:

A choke (modern name is an inductor) is almost the exact opposite of a capacitor in electrical terms.

 

A capacitor blocks the flow of direct current but will allow alternating current to flow.

A choke (inductor) allows a steady direct current to flow but blocks alternating current.

Thanks Smokebox. So why does it need both?

I've seen that careful use of T-Cut on a cotton bud can remove them without damage.

May take a little patience though and watch out you don't go through the paint layer.

4 hours ago, mossdp said:

It is a choke also for supression.

Thanks. Is a Choke different to a Capacitor? And does it need both or would one suffice?

Actually, looking at the service sheet it only shows the Yellow Choke, no capacitor. And reading elsewhere (here), I found some guidance suggesting that it's a good idea to remove old Choke's in favour of a modern capacitor. So if I do only need one or the other, I may remove the old one?

And from what Neil above says, it's not unusual for R.253 to have both. I wonder why?

Hi All,

Can anyone tell me what the component in the picture is?

I know what the capacitor is for, but not what the component in the yellow sleeve does. Thanks.

Just noticed, I missed an 's' in suppression. Oop's!

23 minutes ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

May I suggest a look at my profile photo...I do actually resemble the photo a bit! 

The woman's right?

I'm looking for an X.112 armature for a Triang Dock Shunter (R.253) and have noticed that the X.410 armature looks very similar.

Can anyone confirm if they are the same? Thanks.

21 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

The telltale isn't uncommon, but the rail is IMHO (and I own at least 9 giraffe cars) very rare. I suspect it got left clipped in the track when the model was put away. As others have said, it's a piece of steel super 4 track.

 

Now if you want REALLY rare, find a giraffe's right ear.

I didn't know that so many right ears got damaged that way, so are rare. So by sheer luck.......

And alas, no one got it right...... "What do you get if you have a dirty old ginger Tom that's eaten a duck?"   A Duck-filled-tatty-puss  

Thanks for all the good tips, info and advice on what to look for everyone.

3 hours ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

The telltale has a spacer sleeve over the metal pin, between the plastic flaps and the post.

 

This is a length of the insulating sleeving used on the Tri-ang X.04, etc. Motors.

 

 

The man's right! Thank you.

Tri-ang were nothing if not resourceful.

11 hours ago, sandwich station said:

Not for sale but I thought I would post a few pics of the bits you want, so you know what you are looking for.

 

 

Thank you! That's really helpful.

31 minutes ago, Paul H Vigor said:

What do you get if you cross a giraffe with a duck?

Ha ha ha. Good to see humour is alive and well here 

I don't know the answer to that one, but I do know what you get if you have a dirty old ginger Tom that's eaten a duck.

8 minutes ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

The metal track strip is in fact a length of Super 4 rail, from a single straight track, without fishplates.

 

This is fitted upside down to two plastic base plates, which have edges to clip fit between the sleeper strip, and the running rail.

 

To get the Giraffe Car working, it is possible to attach a length of rail upside down to the centre of the track using blue-tak...

 

The sets originally contained two activating rails, already attached to the base plates.

 

The tell tale is purely cosmetic, and needs to be fitted to the track at the place where the Giraffe starts to duck.

 

The clip fit tongue is the standard one also used for the loading gauge, etc.

 

The closest thing to the original is possibly an overhead wire support.

 

The flaps are plastic, and pivot on a metal pin that is fitted into the plastic arm of the tell tale.

 

One way to find loose original parts is to search though the photos of job lots of parts on eBay, etc...you never know what you may find.

 

 

 

Thanks very much for that helpful info.

I've bought a Tri-ang Giraffe Car (R348) that's in excellent condition, but need the Telltale (that makes the Giraffe duck), and the metal track strip that causes it to duck.

If anyone has either of those that aren't wanted, I'd be very interested.

Thanks.

In my previous post, Metr0Land kindly responded with a link to the same announcement as the email I received, and my topic was closed. However, I was asking if anyone knew the background? Thanks.

Just had an email from Rails saying that they're no longer able to supply Hornby products any more.

Sounds like someone's not been playing nice. Anyone know the background to this?

3 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

 

Yes you can copyright the sound files but are they overpriced at £10-15 which is all they charge for reblowing?

The biggest cost is in the decoder and it’s software at £80-90 not the soundfile. 

Their costs and margins are understandably confidential for obvious reasons or everyone starts using it against you. 
 

Ok ‘making a killing’ suggested they were taking excessive advantage or on the fiddle over egging the value? It’s just semantics.  
Sorry but you’ve said their pricing is excessive in your first post and someone is making a killing in the last one but also admitted you don’t know what their margins are, if that’s not the definition of derogatory- critical & disrespectful - of their motives I don’t know what is. 
All I’m saying is before making such assertions back it up with some facts to support them or a product produced in volume at this lower price. 
Hornby have done this with TTS to an extent but it doesn’t have the sophisticated motor control or memory of the more expensive options. It certainly offers value for money but it’s cheaper for a reason. 
I just don’t think your sums will add up from what I’ve seen of the costs of producing small batch specialised electronics but would be delighted to be proved wrong  

I simply asked the question as to whether others feel as I do that they're overpriced. I'd be happy to provide facts to back up my instinct, but as such facts aren't available, I can only tell you my instinct. As I've said previously, I'd be happy to be proven wrong but no one has the numbers except those that don't want to share them.

And we'll have to agree to disagree on the semantics of 'derogatory'.

3 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Perhaps someone is making a living with some put by for a total shutdown of their business or an extended stay in hospital?
It’s inevitable that once someone does something like this others will copy it too limiting your market, you can patent certain things but decoders are very difficult to protect as multiple cheap copies already have shown.
Producing it on your own workbench and then producing it at any scale is quite different in costs unless you and one robot can reproduce it and send it out. Employ someone to answer the phone and someone to package it while you produce them and you’ll see costs escalate rather fast  

We are all for cheaper sounds but if you’re going to make assertions that someone’s on the fiddle then it would help to have figures to back it up or a proven product available in numbers to prove the point. We’ve seen the ultimate step forward in model railways fall flat on its face with someone at the helm who had the supposed experience in one of the bigger model companies  

Let the product speak before getting too derogatory about established and respected suppliers  

All valid points Paul, though you can copyright your sounds provided you recorded them originally. Thing is, we'll never know if they're over priced unless someone releases their costs and margins. I'm still of the view that that they're overpriced for what they are, but that's just my opinion.

Oh, and I don't recall asserting that anyone was on the fiddle. My words were 'killing' which to me means making an extremely large profit margin.

Lastly, I didn't realise that healthy debate counted as being derogatory?

On 23/01/2020 at 21:46, Haymarket47 said:

But you are not in full possession of all the facts. Just because you work in IT does not mean that you are an expert in this field. Its basic economics, supply and demand. If they weren’t selling at this price they would be cheaper or not sold at all!

Or perhaps, someone is making a killing?

On 24/01/2020 at 00:14, royaloak said:

Has Gerrard released his series of all singing all dancing £50 sound decoders yet?

With my newly available free time, I'm working on them. They'll be £10 and knock spots off anything Zimo make 

7 hours ago, legomanbiffo said:

 

In that case I feel you need to stretch your imagination a bit further :-) If it was so easy then why are there not dozens of sound programmers producing competing high quality sound chips at knock-down prices? Let us explore the path involved in bringing high qualty  loco sounds to market;

 

You need to invest in a high quality, multi-channel solid state recording device. Two actually, in case one fails on the day you paid £1000 to record a loco. Ditto with microphones, cables, boom poles etc.

 

You need a few years experience to work out where to put those mics to obtain the best, representative sound. Experience = cost, time, effort, mistakes etc 

 

You need to arrange access to the loco. If you worked in the industry you might be able to arrange free access to a handful of classes but to nurture the relationships that enable access to an extensive range of prototypes takes considerable time, effort and expense.

 

You often need to pay considerable sums to facilitate said access, four-figure sums are not uncommon in the case of preserved railways.

 

You need to travel to the venue, which might be at the other end of the country, and stay overnight to allow an early start. So then you’re paying for an evening meal and breakfast. And possibly a second night if you don’t want to travel home after an early start and a full day’s recording at the other end of the country.

 

And what if you do all that and the loco fails or is otherwise unusable on the day? That’s happened to me more than once. Imagine driving 200 miles, staying overnight, turning up at 0900 only to find that a simple breakdown in communication between two people at the railway had left the loco in bits for maintenance on the day you were supposed to be recording it?

 

Spend all day capturing the various sounds. Sometimes two days if you have to capture the static sounds separately for whatever reason. 

 

When you get home, back up the several Gb of data you’ve obtained onto multiple drives including offsite ones, to mitigate against losing your hard-earned raw material and livelihood if there was a failure.

 

Listen to hours of recordings to identify the usable bits.

 

Chop up the raw recordings into the small clips necessary to load onto the chip. Around 250 of them in the case of a sophisticated project like the Hattons 66. Edit each and every one of them so that it merges seamlessly with its neighbours.

 

Design a flowchart for the individual sound that mimics the operation of the prototype (so that your Class 56 compressor changes over once a minute for example, or your Javelin can change from overhead 25kV to third rail and back again with the correct sounds at each stage).

 

Add any sounds or functionality that’s changed over the years in the prototype (eg mk4 coaches; at least three combinations of door opening and closing mechanisms and beepers, HST’s; 3 different engine types and several different cooler groups, 08’s; replacement metal doors that sound completely different to the wooden originals, and so on).

 

Buy the target model if you don’t already have one. Think about that one for a moment. Every single new model that comes out you have to buy or borrow to allow you to set up the chip to suit the mechanism, lights, inertia etc.

 

Load the sounds into the model and test everything. Set up the inertia so the model accelerates as fast as the prototype and has the correct top speed. Set the lights to be as dim or bright as the prototype. Configure the various lighting modes. Set the individual sound volumes to be in proportion to one another. Make everything loud enough.

 

Repeat all of the above for the N gauge and O gauge model...

 

Then when your chip is on sale there’s the workload involved in supporting customers who rightly expect knowledgeable answers to a vast array of questions they might have. What’s the best speaker? How do I set the CV’s to do this or that? Will it work with this or that controller?

 

I could go on but hopefully this gives you some idea of the effort involved?

Thanks Legoman, that breakdown certainly helps towards justifying the cost. Though much of the infrastructure and capital equipment you mention will be depreciated over the production of many products and you could apply the same steps to many things that have a lot lower unit cost. I guess it comes down to volumes, which brings me back to wondering if the unit cost were lower, would the increased volume compensate?

Thinking about the Hornby TTS chips, are they that much lesser in quality proportionally to their significantly cheaper price? How do Hornby make the numbers add up?

2 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

So it still looks like a lot of money for some fairly low tech hardware, but at the end of the day the market decides the price and it seems this price level is sustainable.

Yep, the market will sustain a price level, but I for one won't be buying sound decoders at that price, I just don't see the value for money.

So whilst the market may sustain this price, I wonder how many more would be sold if the price was lower?

I'd consider them for an addition £15-20 more. But not for £100+.

But it's up to each person to decide value for money.