midlandsbloke

Hello Steve.

Hope you're ok mate, and I've just read the posting...all I can say is, you're reputation and that of LLC is, in my opinion, completely intact.

I have to doff my cap to you, for continuing to persevere, amid this unfortunate episode, but remember this, there will always be those who "Muddy the waters" in life....and business, however, there are those of us who appreciate what you do to bring us great O gauge models...I still want one of you're Class 15's!!!!

Also, there are those of us who have the thinking "Use it or lose it" JLTRT as a case in point...but there's been a FB posting by MM1 models who are reintroducing the range.....but will MM1 and Heljan produce the loco's LLC are producing???? Probably not Steve.

I could be wrong, but I think there is plenty of room in the market for LLC, MM1, and Heljan, as there are plenty of models not yet covered in RTR.

So, keep up the good work mate.

If you're free at the weekend Steve, give me a call mate.

Jeff

Yes DP2 would be a favorite and also some Mk 2 coaches as we seem to be overwhelmed with Mk 1s now in every direction. With the Class 50 coming out by both Heljan and LLC they were at home hauling a rake of those.

Regards

Alan

Yep...I totally agree Alan...the Deltics, DP2, and the 50's...would be great in O....all of the same "Family"

Personally I would love to have the Lion prototype but I doubt it would sell enough - class 56 would also be a good option and not as yet on the radar of the company supplying large blue boxes.

 

As an aside what I don’t understand is how Heljan can proceed with a 121 DMU retailing at £450 whereas Dapol can promise a 122, which is similar for a price being offered at £250.

 

Have Dapol found a production method you could copy to keep costs down - £600 for a Co-Co diesel is very high albeit others are offering other similar products at similar prices.

 

Just a thought

 

Paul R

I agree with you Paul....it would be great to see ALL the prototypes produced in O gauge, Kestrel, Lion,DP2, maybe even the GWR Gas Turbine loco's....but as you say, they probably won't fly off the shelves...I think DP2 would be a good candidate for O gauge, as the livery changed. Now the 56 would be great...lots of livery's and they are still out on the mainline...here and overseas.

As for the price difference for the DMU's Paul, it's not for me to comment on other business's  pricing policy, but it is unusual.

Regarding copying other people's method's, that is something that would most likely incur litigation from the owner, who will have most likely have laid out huge sum's of money for the design and production of their loco's, you just couldn't go there Paul.

Not only that, CAD design is always evolving, so the designs would be outdated and unsuitable, it wouldn't be practical at all.

Very best wishes, and keep sending your loco preferences.....you may be rewarded.

Thanks.

Jeff

Good work Andy and good luck Jeff.

Thanks Colin....and much appreciated.

Jeff

Good work Andy and good luck Jeff.

Much appreciated Colin...and happy modelling.

Jeff.

Try buying a house with a credit card!

Cheques will continue to be necessary for certain transactions but for most consumer situations (such as a model locomotive) electronic or plastic money is the popular way to go.

 

From Jeff's viewpoint, accepting modern and traditional means of payment would open his venture up yo those who prefer modern methods and also to those who prefer more traditional methods.

Hello Colin.

Regarding the payments, the credit card payment system is being looked at now, if everybody has a particular preference of payment, then we will do everything to accommodate all buyers.

As with buying a house on a credit card, the only really big ticket item that I know was bought on a credit card was a middle eastern gentleman paying $900, 000 for a Ferrari Enzo, I bet the salesman's commision was through the roof!

Thanks Colin.

Jeff

Thanks to Jeff for his time this evening as we have had a chat for over an hour on the phone.

 

A really nice chap who has filled me in with a lot more of his personal background. We have discussed many aspects that I have questioned publicly on here such as the payment options, pseudonyms, technical details and I'll speak as I find and say that I believe Jeff is very well intentioned and had not realised how such decisions or actions could be construed. I gave a few examples in the context of payment methods and voiced the perspective that I think he is drastically limiting his chances of succeeding by not taking online payments and I believe he will be looking into this more. On pseudonyms I highlighted cases where I know people have operated anonymously where they have had prior convictions (literally) and Jeff can see how it could cause concerns. We discussed the information that I had been given about CAD sources and I feel assured that Jeff does know a lot more about detail differences and where inaccuracies lay in previous works. There is clearly an intent to try and try hard to make it succeed but I think (and he knows my comments can be brutal and blunt) that he has been, so far, listening to an echo chamber of contacts who say they don't do online payments, social media etc etc which ultimately, I feel, is limiting the chance of achieving the target quantities we discussed.

 

I hope Jeff can make some adjustments in approach and style for everyone's benefit.

Thanks for the post Andy...already looking into the other methods of sending payments Andy....speak soon, Cheers, Jeff.

Jeff in post 74 you extol the virtues of cheques etc and make the valid point that not everyone uses debit and credit cards.

 

BUT a lot of people DO USE debit and credit cards so why not accept all forms of payment? By restricting acceptable payment methods you are also restricting the number of potential customers of your product.

 

May I respectfully suggest that you also embrace modern payment methods. After all crowdfunding is a modern method so why shy away from debit and credit card? and also Paypal.

 

I know the card companies raise a percentage charge but that would be worth it if it brings in more business.

 

Colin

Hello Colin...its definitely something that we'll look at....however, a lot of people won't use cards because of the security issue, you'd be surprised at how many people won't use them...and looking at the news tonight, regarding TSB....I don't blame them.

Jeff

With respect to the calls to lock the thread I can see why they may be made but at present this is one of the few channels where those prospectively interested may be able to glean further information to make a decision. It's also potentially beneficial to Jeff if he can address any points raised and may give more of a positive outcome for all than if nothing is said at these early stages.

 

Although Jeff has replied to some questions I haven't seen any responses to the questions I posted about previous experience and knowledge of detail differences; these are basic questions which shouldn't be a problem to respond to.

 

I do not doubt for one second that Jeff is well intentioned with a genuine desire to see a positive outcome and that any funds received will be returned if the viable threshold is not reached (I do think deducting the cost of a stamp to return cheques a bit miserly in the wider context of the total amounts being talked about, almost as though not one penny of personal expenditure would be given). My concerns are about what happens further down the line if things do not go to plan (they never do so what contingency is factored into this?). I would imagine that an idea of costings has been given by the potential factory and that the project price has been based upon that given. But is the factory tied into that price already? I would doubt it given the knowledge of what others have to contend with. What if the initial CADs are not correct due to incomplete or incorrect information being supplied? Extra costs can occur at that stage. My earlier question about detail differences was relevant to this point; are they being designed and tooled for or would this involve further work later on? Have the factory given firm dates at which CAD, tooling, EP samples and production slots can take place. If so some projected timelines could be given but again it's unlikely to have committed to that at such an early stage.

 

Whilst the factory may have quoted a price experience shows that prices cannot be accurate until the CAD work has been completed so the factory fully understands what work is involved; if that remains bolted down there are still currency exchange variables which can happen (for seem reason they rarely seem to be favourable exchanges). Whilst Jeff has a perfect right to see a profit from the venture experience tells that these margins can be rapidly eroded by the scenarios explained above so is there sufficient contingency or a commitment to personally meet those additional costs? If not, would it be a case of coming back to investors to ask for more? I haven't seen any mention of personal capital investment from Jeff in this; is it solely crowdfunders' capital?

 

I am not against crowdfunding, I have pledged to a few (non-hobby) projects and without exception they have been delivered much later than any initial projections and from the comments down the line it would seem that any anticipated margins had evaporated. In one case the bloke didn't earn a penny out of it (in fact it cost him) and he didn't even have the money or time available to post the finished items out taking several months to do so utilising recycled packaging and paying postage from his day-job when he could.

 

Part of the reason I was asking about the CAD images earlier in the topic was that I was told that there was an intention to utilise design work that had been carried out for another 'manufacturer' with some amendments. This raises legal and ethical issues and seems at variance with the stated aim that it is designed from the ground-up from the Ivatt Society's drawings. So; are the costs based on new CAD work or adaption of existing works? If the latter is there any knowledge or adaptation of where there were inaccuracies in the previous drawings?

 

Nothing has been said about thresholds as yet; what are the targets in terms of models and how will any measurement against those targets be given. Anyone who does submit funds should have a reasonable expectation as to how far or close the project is off achieving the thresholds and whether it is likely to proceed. Further information on this may be useful in establishing whether it's even achievable, 100 units may be but a target of 10,000 would never be met.

 

Crowdfunding is risk and reward and we don't really know how large the risk is, how good the reward may be and how likely it is to happen. Desire for a degree of personal anonymity doesn't help where transparency can cultivate more confidence.

Hello Andy....if you have a moment, could you give me a call on the website number...thanks, Jeff

A few questions if I may?

How much Customer Research has been done to see if you can actually sell enough LMS Twins without ending up in the same situation as Heljan and there O Gauge Falcoln where it was supposed to be a popular choice but there market is still awash with unsold models which cannot be easily modified to say a Class 47?

I know a bit about Crowd funding and it helps if you propose an idea that you know people will contribute to and not propose some in the vain hope you may get people interested.

 

Was it case of no-one else does the LMS Twins and I want a pair in O Gauge so I will get them made and damn the consequences, or do you have supporting figures of potential customers?

 

Another trust issue people will have is the following "We will only accept payments by Bankers draft, Building society cheque, Electronic bank transfer (Bacs) or postal orders (unsigned).

We will not accept credit or debit cards. "

 

Now, I'm sorry but anyone offering a service for something unseen and untested for £600 where the banks cannot give a refund if your company ends up like JLTRT for example in the future then why do you think you will get many investors as a lot of people do not have cheques anymore.

 

Also why are there references on your Facebook page that certain people/modellers who have been previously mentioned have allegedly been involved in your project yet it turns out that they have had no connections with the project at all and there names are being used just like Martin Lewis by Facebook!

Yes John, you are correct....now that JLTRT has sadly ceased to be, there is now a void of Locomotives in the O gauge world, and believe me, there were lots of their kits that were on my personal shopping list....so the twins were a logical choice, being so iconic. Although they only existed for less then 20 years, they would be more at home sitting amongst steam loco's than any other diesel's.

As for the comment's about payments, there are an awful lot of people who will never use a credit or debit card.....indeed, when I asked all the gentlemen at the railway club last night, a high proportion of them have never given credit card details out over the phone....and a few do not have a credit card at all!!!

Surprisingly....bank/building society cheques are still very common....I use them all the time....never had a problem. It's possibly a generational thing that more, I know a few elderly chaps who only ever deal in cash...."Money talk's" as one of them quoted.

I think too much has been read into the word of thanks to the guys on the webpage, the guys mentioned have no involvement with lococraft at all, but they have all been exceptionally helpful by giving up a lot of their time by offering advice and direction, either by phone, or e-mail, which has been absolutely invaluable, you couldn't buy that of kind of support ...so no, we are not having a Martin Lewis moment.

As for the customer research, it's simple....by talking to people in the trade, asking members of clubs, exhibitions, and many, many, other trusted people involved with model railways, but without the competition getting wind of the project.

As for the Falcon.......I think Heljan just over produced produced.....it really was something of a "One trick pony"...which, granted, could be applied to the twins.......how many people have all three livery's...probably not many, hence the unsold stock, plus the twins existed far longer, and in my opinion were ground breaking in being the first mainline diesels.

As stated previously.....If the project does not meet the required target, modellers will get their money returned, we are the only ones that will be disadvantaged.

Jeff

It’s not what your doing that people “want to pour scorn on “ but the way you’ve done it

You’ve created the negative yourself

Sorry but just the way I see it .i model 0 gauge ,pre order and I’m willing to be part of the Crowdfunders for the LLC class 50 but at this time with what I’ve read and the way you’ve gone about this, I wouldn’t consider Crowdfunding or buying from you

Sorry but I’ve no faith in how your going about it

 

Brian

Each unto their own Brian, you are perfectly entitled to you're opinion, which I value, but I have tried to keep the webpage and ethos of Lococraft reasonably basic, so that all can make an informed decision whether to buy into what we are providing.

Thanks

Jeff

I could think of a more popular choice of prototype

 

Paul R

Hello Paul, do tell...I'm interested in your personal choice.

Jeff

I do wonder if there is a rush to summary justice via the social media kangaroo court going on here? Most of us modelling in gauge 0 want to see greater supplier diversity and innovation in the RTR market, not just 'blue boxes'. Lococraft have been given lots of market feedback on the business proposition and with any sense will want to reflect and review this before coming back with a more acceptable v.2. Innovation is iterative by its nature.

 

I've suggested before that making a personal appearance with 3D CADs or prints at one of the upcoming events such as Guildex or the handy local GCR model gala in June [i'm sure a table could be found!] would be one way of establishing a relationship with potential customers. People buy people.

 

Let's not forget how patient we have been with certain other gauge 0 suppliers, such as those who announce new models which take years to materialize [if at all, anyone waiting for a class 23?], those who take customers payments whilst effectively trading as insolvent then close the business, which then re-appears under new ownership, or simply experience repeated problems with manufacturers which push the delivery date years back? There is a forum running on the G0G site about a kit supplier with a name like a dodgy taxi firm which has been selling equally dodgy kits for decades and getting away with it. So personally I'd like to see Mr Lynch being given a chance to 'pivot' his business proposition and return with a stronger one.

 

The loco is too big for me, anyway I'm still waiting for that Ruston 48DS, no wait, they cancelled my order!

Dava, thanks for you're very supportive posting...and I apologise for wishing to make loco's out of you're scale....sorry. Obviously, I will agree that social media can throw up negative's, however, I believe the posts here haven't been intended that way, in fact there have been good wishes from quite a few people here, and for that I am extremely  grateful.

However, I went into this fully aware that there will be one or two detractor's here who will pour scorn on any new venture, it's just human nature.....however, what I would say to those folks would be this.....if you aren't happy with what I'm proposing, then be my guest and try setting up a business to produce Loco's yourself, although not stressful (yet)...its very challenging, the hours spent sourcing design drawings, sourcing a manufacturer that can deliver a quality product, giving up hours and hours sending e-mails to the far east..endless phone call's, designing a website...the list goes on and on and on.

And yes, we have been patient with some suppliers, but as suppliers, we can't be "all things to all men" Lococraft's philosophy is to try and fill a gap in the market with the support of crowdfunders, indeed, a question has been asked "Who are you're backers?" well, the simple answer is the crowdfunder's themselves, they are playing an active role by supporting Lococraft, and in return, we wish to supply quality products for our supporters, at a reasonable price, in keeping with current pricing of ready to run models.

I think you hit the nail on the head with Dava with you're comment of summary justice....as it would seem to be apparent that one or two people think that Lococraft would "gamble" with their hard earn't cash....NEVER!

As I have repeatedly stated, if the target is not met, we will never commit funds to the project, and refunds will be returned to those who have subscribed...I'm not sure if the webpage has been read through.

You mentioned about the GCR modelling gala....yes, I looked at that, but it was totally sold out last year, which is a pity, as that's a bloody good day out...if it's not raining.....maybe the year after though!

Once again, thank you for you're positive comments....and happy modelling for the future Dava

Best wishes.

Jeff

I would have a problem dealing with a businesman who does not use his real name on the publicity for his new venture. The reason you give is to keep your ex wife from knowing. Is there any issus with her that could adversly affect the project? That would be important for a potential customer to know before parting with cash.

 

 

 

By the way: Is your ex wife a member of RMweb?

Probably not Colin....but she know's I'm into O gauge railways....some ex's can't let go. I don't wish her to know my business, as simple as that. 

Hello Jeff,

Firstly, having posted your intro - thank you for taking the time to reply to my comments earlier.

 

In many ways I cannot fault your comments and I totally agree that O Gauge should (like N and OO) be available to as many as possible. However, I believe (and this is only my personal opinion) that there is a critical point being missed.

 

It is admirable to have the view that you have, but in today’s world there are several major problems. Firstly, money is hard won, so people are usually cautious at letting go of it. Secondly, many schemes have promised and then failed to deliver for a number of reasons, and thirdly crowdfunding while a great principal tries to convince everyone this is a way of doing things, but gives no guarantees at all.

 

I am not, in anyway assuming, suggesting or trying to imply that this project will fail to deliver, but people need to be able to judge whether it is a risk worth taking. I therefore think you need to establish credibility and a reputation. This is not asking people to stump up £20 for a wagon, it is a serious amount of money, and I note that none of the answers have mentioned what the funding plan is, ie is it all crowdfunded or has the business, it’s owners or backers put up funds.

 

My feeling is that you really need to think hard about what is proposed and how it is communicated - your background, the level that the models are going to (ie is this a Heljan standard, or are you pushing the boundaries like Little Loco Company), who is doing the CAD design, what the skills are of those involved, what the production plan and backup plans are, for example. I said earlier crowdfunding can work, but it requires much more information to be available in the public domain, akin to a business investor going through the books.

 

It seems to me, with no disrespect intended, that the public feeling is you have appeared on the scene asking for money to produce a model, but nobody knows you, the company is new so has no track record, the company is handling the crowdfunding, rather than a funding platform like Kickstarter, so there are no guarantees of a refund if the project failed to meet its targets. There’s no credit card option that gives people some security. Have you spoken to or involved the Gauge O Guild? There are far more questions than answers, and the fact that within a couple of days of launching, you have amended dates after one conversation would make me question how much thought and planning has gone into things?

 

I know the above may sound negative and I apologise for that. I hope you succeed in your aims, but you asked for a view. I shall be interested to read the response, and I also have to say I would totally agree with all the questions raised by Andy Y. Andy and his fellow colleagues across all modelling magazines may be some of your best supporters if you can convince them of the soundness of the project, and that it is viable and well thought through.

 

Rich

Hello Rich...and thanks for the message....sorry, I'm not ignoring you, I'm on a tight schedule tonight...very late getting in from work....a six car pile up!.....So when I get home tomorrow night, I'll reply to the above message

Many thanks.

Jeff

Jeff,

So which businesses around the world do you supply to and are they fine scale bogies?

Regards

 

Alan

Hello Alan...ok...I think I need to clear up some confusion here.....I don't supply any other company....Lococraft is a first time venture for me, however, the company who I have contacted to produce the model's of 10000 and 10001 DO produce for other companies overseas, their wealth of experience is excellent, and yes, the model's will be finescale bogie's. I hope this has helped Alan.

Jeff

The bogie in the CAD drawing has an incorrect wheelbase for the LMS loco's.

 

Peter

Hello Pete....yes, you are absolutely correct.....the CAD drawing was used to illustrate just the gear train...when viewing the bogie from the side, the LMS twins had varying wheelbase within it's bogies...for instance, axle 1 to axle 2 (the centre axle) was a different measurement from axle 3. Rest assured this difference will be addressed during the design stage.

Thank's for the heads up Pete.

Regards, Jeff

I'm guessing it's not Lococrafts bogie,  but one that the company he intends to contract to already makes.

Hello Alan, and thanks for the question. Ok....you are totally correct.....the manufacturer has a standard design that they use for other models, it's a good reliable robust unit and they supply models to other markets, especially the U.S. I've approached the company on a strong recommendation....and they have an extensive knowledge of the British model railway scene, especially O gauge. We approached this particular company as they make a drive unit with 3 powered axles....most don't.

I hope this has answered you're question Alan.

Jeff

“.however gents, the only thing it will cost is the price of an envelope and a first class stamp, to return your money.”

 

Does this mean he’ll mail us back our money if it’s not successful?

 

Brian

Absolutely....without hesitation.....as it say's on the website Brian. Happy to help. Jeff

This seems to be a very rum way to do business.  Your real name is Jeff Lynch, which is how you are registered as a director on Companies House. Your false name is Graham Jones. Graham Jones is the real name of the proprietor of the model railway firm NMRS Models located in Northampton just over one hour's drive from your registered and service addresses. NMRS Models specialises in O Gauge and does some Z Gauge. Hopefully, there will be no confusion, but it may be helpful for you to state clearly that you have no connection with NMRS Models. 

 

Charles Trelawney

Thanks for the heads up Charles, and no...I had no idea whatsoever there was another Graham jones involved in the model railway business.....I use the pseudonym to avoid my ex wife prying into my affairs...I've used the pseudonym for years........purely random chance.

I’d agree with your comments Chris.

 

Personally I think crowdfunding is an option if it’s done right. This isn’t the place to discuss this, but for a new organisation, crowdfunding via an established platform like Kickstarter, brings additional costs, but some guarantee that if the target isn’t reached you will get money back. No guarantee if it is reached that you will ever get the product of course, but they way it all works gives some confidence and allows people to build reputations, which has to be the name of the game.

 

I think this chap, with all due respect to him, needs to expand on how things are going to work, rather than just putting a website up and expecting it to work. But it’s early days, we don’t know (for example) what coverage he may have agreed with magazines or the Gauge O Guild, what the business or marketing plan is, or whether there is any money being put up. Crowdfunding means you need to put a lot more info out there, just like investors putting money into a company, there is the due diligence and risk assessment to be done. Could that harm the project? Yes, but it’s a trade off to asking people to financially support you.

 

Speculation isn’t helpful, and the web is probably the worst place for it, but is inevitable unless people know more I guess. Time will tell, and I wish anyone well who has the courage to go into such things for our benefit, but I would certainly want to know a lot more before giving what in my view amounts to an un-guaranteed interest free loan!

 

I wonder what the business manager of the local bank would say if presented with what we currently know!

 

Rich

Hello Rich

And I fully understand your cautious approach to what we are proposing regarding the crowdfunding project, however, I agree with you when you say that crowdfunding has to be done correctly....and speculation certainly doesn't help matters, however, bear with me on this one....its all new territory...and a huge learning curve, but one I'm enjoying...sometimes challenging, but never stressful.

Lococraft is a bona fide company, and one that wishes to engage with modellers to develope a broad product range, to the satisfaction of all.

However, it is also understood that with increased living costs, and people having less disposable income....that crowdfunding allows modellers to buy models without taking a big hit in their bank account.....smaller hits over a longer period of time, surely that makes thing's easier for all concerned.

Indeed, after having a two hour conversation with a very well respected railway magazine editor just this evening, I have decided to extend the first payment dates by a further month, so the website will be adjusted accordingly.

The reason for this adjustment is twofold...simply put, the summer holidays are not far away, and holidays are not cheap when mum, dad and the kids wish to go away for a nice break....then the next costly time is Christmas....and we all eat, drink, and spend too much, don't we. 

So for that reason we are altering the dates for the payments, hopefully this will be more accomodating for modellers.

O gauge should not be a preserve for the well off.....O gauge should be within the reach of all modellers.

Any thoughts would be most welcome Rich.

Thanks.

Jeff

Hello everybody.

Ok guys, and thanks for the question, and to answer that question about the bogie CAD design, this is the standard drive unit that the company have designed to power all their loco's with the CO-Co wheel arrangement, which they supply to business's around the globe, it's a good, robust, proven design, its a standard component  that they fit.

Just to change the subject slightly chap's, I'm thinking of looking into having a replacement gear train unit produced en masse, as a replacement for Co-Co loco's that come in large blue box's, Not only would the gears be more robust, possibly even brass, but it would also convert the bogie to an all axle drive unit, I'm in the fortunate position of living near a very good toolmaker who would help with the design and production. Currently, this is only at the idea stage........so you're thoughts are most welcome on this subject.

Regarding the Lococraft page.....as crowdfunding is becoming more popular, it seems a better way to go, HOWEVER, let me re-assure everybody, IF THE PROJECT DOES NOT PROCEED, EVERYBODY WILL HAVE ALL MONIES PAID RETURNED FORTHWITH.........however gents, the only thing it will cost is the price of an envelope and a first class stamp, to return your money.

Many thanks to those who have wished success to Lococraft.

Regards 

Jeff

Good evening folks.

Apologies for the late post here guys.

Allow me to reveal all......my name as pointed out by earlier posts is indeed Jeff Lynch, and I have established Lococraft as depicted on the webpage, indeed, if I use Facebook, I assume the pseudonym of  Graham Jones, purely for the simple reason I do not wish my ex wife to pry into my personal life, if you all knew her, you'd completely understand!!!  Ok....now that the personal information is out of the way, I have established Lococraft to try and fill a void in the ready to run market.

I have to say that after seeing some of the superb work that modellers have performed in bringing O gauge to life, I feel that I'd like to help supply locomotives that are high on the "Wish list" of O gauge modellers, being an O gauge  modeller myself, how good would it be to have quality loco's that YOU want, ready to go, straight out of the box?

Although the Lococraft webpage has only been up a day or so......and it still needs tweaking.....we would love to hear from you which loco's, whether it's steam  diesel or electric, which ones would be high on you're wish list, as we would certainly give everything a long look...however, I think DHP1 wouldn't be in high demand though!

There have been one or two comments here that we are working with others/or using moulds and designs from another company...this is absolutely untrue, Lococraft are only working with the Ivatt re-creation society, as they are providing technical advice, photograph's, and more importantly, the original design drawings as prepared by the LMS. This is a completely new ground up project in producing quality finescale,  O gauge models of 10000 and 10001.

If you have wish to know more, than please e-mail us or call  on the number that's on the website....and happy modelling folk's.

Jeff.