USRailFan

On 28/07/2023 at 16:02, astropsidings said:

Not quite in the time period, the attached shows the formation for 1V32 23.10 Glasgow Central-Bristol TM, 14th March 1987. Presumably the portion added at Carsairs came from Edinburgh?

 

edit: 14th March was a Saturday, and must have run via Oxford.

 

 

1V32 23.10 Glasgow C - Bristol TM 15-3-87.pdf 1019.71 kB · 14 downloads

So basically:
From Glasgow - BSO-TSO-TSO-SLEP-SLE-SLEP-BG (non-aircon Mk2s. 90mph-only BG)
From Carstairs - BSO-TSO-TSO-SLEP-SLE-SLEP-BG-BG-BSO-TSO-TSO-SLEP-SLE-SLEP (with Mk2s in this part aircon)

Didn't parcels van run in their own dedicated services as late as summer of 1991 though?

Still a weird number of BGs and formation for a sleeper train

What would all those BGs be for though?

Euston -  Glasgow Central sleeper at Carlisle in July 91: 

Looks like three or four GUVs up front, then two BGs? Then at least one seater (the blue/grey one)?

The list of formations I quoted, was from autumn 1991, where one rake included a BSO (based on the carriage numbers) - by that point, based on youytube clips and photos, it seems XC rakes were still mostly 5 TFO-RFO-BG, with the 5 TFO-Mk1 diner-BFK rakes having been discontinued when more HSTs came into use by XC, BSOs not becoming common in XC rakes until 1993ish (possibly after BSOs were freed up with the removal of seating from most anglo-scottish sleeper trains)?

On 21/09/2019 at 23:48, ChrisH-UK said:

XC - 26/8/91 - Carlisle

86241 1204 5836 5803 5638 5653 5626 9484

86228 5767 5824 5760 5843 5632 5821 1203 92939

86207 9507 5684 5722 5719 5706 1653 3228

 

 

Do you by any chance remember which XC trains those would've been? BSOs in XCs can't have been common at this time?

Flickr claims Edinburgh to Penzance sleeper although I'd suppose it's rather the Cross Country Sleeper, in September 91. Looks like a BG, 4 SLEPs and then an unknown number of Mk2s?

Can anyone make out what the last car is here:

It's obviously a Mk2d BFK and then presumably a TSO, but is it a second SLEP at the rear, or another TSO?

(Did the Night Riviera even have RLOs in the "Mk2" era? AFAIK they were, at least initially, all meant for the Anglo-Scottish Sleepers)

RLO? Doesn't the Night Riviera run with all Mk3 stock now, including the Mk3b (ex-)BFOs? So they'd likely be RFMs or similar?

Wouldn't it technically be possible to order a couple similar (but shorter) sets for the Night Riviera?

AFAIK Nightstar was supposed to go to much of the same destinations as the regular domestic night trains, isn't it a large chance that if Nightstar had actually been established, and been reasonably successful, it'd have killed off the domestic night trains anyway? Or were they to be banned for domestic travellers?

9 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

The Glasgow - Plymouth sleeper ran until 1994.

 

The original pan was to cease ALL sleeper trains at that point as they were heavy loss making and HM Treasury (1) didn't want to subside them plus (2) it was thought it would make any franchise containing them unattractive to private sector bidders.

Weren't the Nightstar still supposed to be a thing at this point? AFAIK it wasn't (officially) cancelled until after privatisation?

On 29/01/2023 at 23:48, keefer said:

The Sleepers are (unusually) all SLEP (two opaque windows [toilet and attendant's compartment] and 12 berths) - i think the norm was 1 SLEP to 1 or 2 SLE (1 opaque toilet window and 13 berths)

Actually, it seems, once again based on the 1992 "Locomotives & Coaching Stock", that all the Sleepers assigned to the Western Region were SLEPs only. Same goes for those assigned to Cross Country. Meaning that both the Night Riviera and the Plymouth - Edinburgh - Glasgow sleepers would've only had SLEPs at this point...

From the steam era, I understand the standard was that the brake end on coaches like BTKs were to face the end of the train - e g a BCK at the front with the Brakevan end facing forwars, and a BTK at the rear with the Brakevan end facing rearwards. and if there were more than two, the others generally faced the rear.
In the later era - from late 80s onwards, it seems that the Mk2 Cross Country trains that used BFKs, had the brakevan end facing the Mk1 dining car, while e. g. the sleeper trains that used BSOs had the brakevan end facing the loco/GUVs (although with exceptions, e.g. a youtube showing the Inverness - Euston sleeper in 1990 shows it with a TSO behind the Class 90, then the BSO with the brakevan end facing the sleepers, then at the other end of the sleepers another BSO with the brakevan end similarly facing the sleepers), whilst NSE services on e g the GWML had the brakevan end towards the middle of the train. Was it seen as most convenient to have the brakevan end of the BFKs facing the diner/TSOs in order to separate the people in 1st class from the plebs in 2nd class, or was there another reason?

Nice info CrisH. I think there was also a separate sleeper to Carlisle at this point? The Poole - Glasgow likely ran merged with the Plymouth - Birmingham - Edinburgh - Glasgow sleeper?

Inverness Sleeper in late summer 1991: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I804o82eoTM&ab_channel=NeilHaytonRailwayMemories

Looks like TSO-BSO (vith van facing sleepers) - 3 SLE/SLEP - RLO (presumably) - 5-6 SLE/SLEP and then presumably Motorail GUVs on the rear (which we don't see)

On 30/01/2023 at 11:16, keefer said:

I did wonder but it looks to me like there are single rows of seats i.e. with no large table

According to the 1992 "Locomotives & Coaching Stock" all the 6800-6829 series TSOs (which I presume are the "high density" ones, given that they are listed with 74 seats compared to 64 for regular TSOs) belonged to either East Anglia or Midland Mainline in early 1992. However Old Oak Commons had a few of the 58-seat ex-FO 6200-6236 series, although they seem to be Mk2d

Video from Watford Junction in summer 1991 seems to show two (presumably northbound) night trains: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXC7aF-zm8Y&t=602s
The first one is at around 4:15, hauled by a Class 87 and has a pretty weird formation of 2 Motorail GUVs, 3 SLE/SLEP, 1 TSO, 2 BSO with the van areas facing each other, 2 TSO. Strangely large amount of seating cars for a night train of that era, possibly a transfer of extra stock (with the 1 TSO and BSO being the "standard" seating?). Possibly the Fort Bill train? Or possibly some charter service (but would they have had Motorail)?
The second one is at around 10:25, hauled by a Class 90 with a formation that looks like 4 Motorail GUVs, 6 SLE/SLEP, 1 RLO, 3 SLE/SLEP, TSO, BSO. Probably the Euston - Glasgow or possibly Euston - Edinburgh sleeper?

On 22/08/2022 at 22:34, GordonC said:

Was the Glasgow to Plymouth sleeper still running in the early 1990s? I'm not sure when it stopped but would have expected it to be before then

This video (also from early 1992) seems to show the Glasgow - Plymouth running through Exeter St Davids at around 4:35: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--0t_HUQnEM&t=629s
Formation at that time looks like 2 TSO - RFB - 4 SLE/SLEP - BG

8 hours ago, keefer said:

Definitely a Mk2d a/c BFK - previous Mk2-2c BFK had normal windows and Mk2e/f did not have a BFK, they were BSO only.

The first TSO is one of the Mk2f(?) high-density conversions from FO (only 7 saloon windows and seats don't line up with the windows).

The second TSO is a Mk2d (a/c coach with both toilets on same side, Mk2e/f had one toilet each side at opposite ends).

The Sleepers are (unusually) all SLEP (two opaque windows [toilet and attendant's compartment] and 12 berths) - i think the norm was 1 SLEP to 1 or 2 SLE (1 opaque toilet window and 13 berths)

You sure about the High-Density TSO? Seems like a weird choice for a night train, wouldn't the downclassed FOs that still had 1+2 seating be a better choice?

18 hours ago, nightstar.train said:

 

It's a Mk2D BFK and is AC, they did make a few AC BFKs. 

 

 

One of the BGs will be a generator van as both those 37s are freight engines and don't have ETH capability. I think it's the rear one, but the video is a bit blurry. Three BGs (6311-13) were converted as generator vans for use on the Inverness and Aberdeen sleepers. All three are still with us, 6311 with LSL, 6312 with WCRC and 6313 with the VSOE Pullman. 

Yes, I did check the 1992 "Locomotives & Coaching Stock" and it seems the majority of the Mk2d BFKs in IC colors belonged to Western Region

To further hijack this thread, does anyone have the exact formation for the Euston - Glasgow and Plymouth - Glasgow sleeper in the 1991-92 timetable (which I think was the last timetable it had regular seating cars?). I know they likely both had GUVs still at this time, and I think the Plymouth - Glasgow also dropped off a BG, 2 sleepers and a seater (TSO probably) at Carlisle?

Another video, from Summer 1993, showing the Caledonian Sleeper (presumably the Aberdeen section), with a formation that seems to be 3 Motorail GUVs - Mk1 BG - 2 Mk2 TSO - Mk2 FO (RFO(T) possibly?) - 7 Mk3 Sleepers - Mk1 BG. My guess would be that the train would've ran with this formation all the way from Euston, only changing from a Class 86/87/90 to the dual 37s at Edinburgh (presumably).