cwam

Well, I have been waiting for the newly tooled HST to appear in fGW "fag packet" livery ever since the HST was retooled (and, in fact, I was waiting for it in the old tooling as well!) so you can imagine that I am a happy chappy! I had just about given up on ever getting one.  It looks like my planned Penzance-based scenario circa 2001 has got a bit of life in it after all!

Also, I couldn't figure out why neither Hattons nor Rails had anything about the 2022 Hornby range, but having read through many pages in this thread I know now, at least in part - so much knowledge on here!

54 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

As one of my old workmates said when pressed on a delivery date "Do you want it now or do you want it right". 

I suspect the answer on here would be "I want it RIGHT NOW"

Or, as we used to say in my old work place:

On time;

No defects;

Pick one.

More generally, I think the fact that Bachmann has chosen not to include anything new in their 2020 catalogue only means that people will be more interested than ever in these quarterly announcements - even if it is only to find out if there will be any re-liveried items in the next three months.

However, if Thomas is all they have to announce then so be it.  Hornby and Accurascale have planned so much this year that I want to get I will be glad if the only thing I have to buy from Bachmann is their much anticipated (well, by me anyway!) Class 117.

1 hour ago, BritishRail60062 said:

... I mostly run my models trains as I see fit .

*Gasps!* You hear about such people but you never think you will actually come across one - can't we have him banned or something?  

(from a fellow Norn Ironer!)

16 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Except, per the newsletter posted, any new liveries / repeats won't be announced until the model is within 3 months of arriving in the UK.

 

So (it appears) Bachmann will be making announcements and/or updates 4 times a year now.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/149669-Bachmann-2020-range/&do=findComment&comment=3810322

Yes, but that was what I meant - sorry for not being clear - I think announcing re-liveries three only months ahead is a mistake.  People do need time to budget and plan for purchases, especially as prices increase to reflect the ever higher quality of the models.  Surely their production process should be reliable enough that they can announce reruns and new liveries with reasonable confidence that they will arrive within a 12 - 18 month period?

But then, maybe it is an interim measure so we will see how it pans out.

17 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

I’m not convinced....Hornby had a ready made range in the Lima stuff and it appears to have worked for them, with the numerous 66s they are chucking out at half the price of a super detail hattons one.

Bachmann haven’t and so when they are looking at retooling standard stuff like a 47, I can’t see them having the time to do a railroad version as well as upgrade their existing range to keep up

Maybe they could just keep the old tooling each time they revamp a model and use that? Take the Class 220/1 or the Class 170s - they are a reasonably good model it is just that they are not DCC friendly. But people are still buying them on eBay. Even the old tooling class 158's are selling reasonably well.  Give it a few years of introducing nice newly high-spec models and then, when you have enough of the older stuff to offer even a handful of items, introduce a new budget range.

It does occur to me, though, that Bachmann seem to have made a choice to aim for the high spec high cost market - when you release a coach that has an RRP of just under £85 (the new Mark 2F) so that to make a rake of six plus a loco you are looking at £680 RRP (inc. £170 RRP for current Virgin Class 47 loco), well, you are not aiming at kids and first time model railers! Even with a 10% discount that is still over £600. There cannot be anyone at Bachmann who would think that item would sell to the general market - they could not be as out of touch as that!

Hornby, by contrast, have always had a keen eye on the kids and beginners; presumably the strategy being, in part, to keep newcomers coming into the hobby and thus ensure a market in the future, and partly because the models are cheaper to make and easier to make a profit from.  People are sometimes critical of Hornby's "trainset" approach but I, for one, am glad that I will be able to get a six-coach Pendolino in AWC colours for just over £300.

Meanwhile I am still scratching my head and wondering how I will ever afford that Virgin XC train! It won't be by buying Bachmann coaches, that's for sure! I am likely only to get the Bachmann RFB because Hornby don't have one in their Mark 2F range.

34 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

Body shell wise, very little though the windows with openings on might have been in slightly different places.   They were built as Class 158’s and converted into Class 159’s at Rosyth, so I think the main differences are mainly internal.

Thanks for that, I always wanted to know!

26 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

...

 

A trawl through the steam locos showed 76 items listed, of which 33 are in stock, less than half.  Out of stock seems to be Bachmannese for:-

 

'Well, all we can tell you is that we haven't got any in the warehouse in Barwell at the moment, irrespective of whether we are vaguely expecting some at some unfixed date in the future depending on the whims of Chinese producers, assemblers, and packers, shipping delays, and distribution problems, all out of our remit of direct control and impossible to call accurately, or have had them in and sent them all out.  You can only tell when we've got stuff in stock because we say so.  In fact, unless we state that we have a model in stock, it could refer to anything eles anywhere at any point along the space/time continuum'.

 

...

Yeah, they really need to have a category called "Planned Future Release" or some such to distinguish between items that have actually sold out and items that haven't even been made yet.

As for "Shroedinger's availability" - LOL - nice one!

6 hours ago, Melangoose said:

Having seen how good the new Bachmann 158 is, I would hope they would capitalise on this and maybe produce a Trains for Wales and a Southwestern Railway 158’s. But saying that, it would put my modelling funds under pressure.

I agree - I am half tempted to buy one even though it doesn't fit in my era!  But I am sure they will release new liveries on this model, it would be crazy not to; we just might not know about them very far in advance this year!

BTW, I always meant to ask someone - what is the difference between a class 158 and class 159?  Many years back I had (briefly) the old Alphaline Wessex Trains Class 158 and the SWT Class 159 but apart from the extra coach in the SWT one, I couldn't see any difference!

Well, I don't mind delaying announcements until they are within a 12-18 month period from the items being in the shops, and I get that means there have to be some years with no announcements about any newly tooled items. Three years from now it won't be an issue anyway since they will have "caught up" - what is three years in this hobby? In any given year there are usually so many more models than I can afford to buy I am still scrounging around on eBay hoping to find models that were first released way longer than three years ago - I only just purchased the last in my rake of Mk1 grey-blue Pullman coaches last week!

I did think, though, that they should be able to announce in the catalogue any planned new liveries for existing items such as, say, the class 158 and I see no point in buying a catalogue which has no new content compared with last year's catalogue - or am I getting that bit wrong?  Might there be products that have been announced *since* last year's catalogue so they will be in this years but not in last years? I'm unlcear about that.

It's a bit disappointing - I have a Bachmann and Hornby catalogue for every year since I started this hobby - back in 1999; I much prefer paper copies than browsing online (and it is not that I am a technophobe - I used to be a computer programmer and still use the things several hours a day!) but I don't collect the catalogues just to collect them so, as I say, it looks like I won't be buying one this year!

Although, maybe I could use the fact that it includes other gauges as the excuse....I might just be a collector after all, but in denial!

17 minutes ago, scoobyra said:

Cav and Alex, whilst I don’t want to tell you how to run your business, I think it’s not the best decision you could make. Off the back of out conversation at Warley, the Hornby version isn’t anywhere near the standard you have set, and now they will clean up, with a model that’s not as good. Competition is healthy, and I personally feel that you’re on a sound footing with the 225, and the coaches to go with it. It takes a lot to impress me and there’s a lot to be said for smaller companies who really DO make a difference. I still think there’s a lot of mileage in this project, but it’s obviously too big a gamble for you.

 

keep the faith.

Mike 

I am also a sci-fi kit builder; a few years back a company called Round 2 in the US were being lobbied to produce a 1/350 scale model of the original Starship Enterprise from Star Trek.  They didn't know if it would be profitable or not. The solution they came up with was the "1701 Club" (1701 being the registry of the starship)  They asked people to place orders but did not begin production until they had 1701 orders in place.  The result was 1701 limited edition models but once the tooling had been made the standard version was available for anyone to buy (and it has been a hit ever since - I have two of them!)

Maybe Cavalex could do something similar - asking people to commit a certain percentage of funding up front until they get enough orders to completely fill the production run.

I am sure they have thought of all kinds of variations on this - it is not all that different from the process they describe on their own website - but I agree with Mike here - anyone who cares about getting a nicely detailed Class 91 will not buy the Hornby one, esepcially if it isn't nearly up to the Cavalex spec; and the people who don't care about the detailing are already buying the existing Hornby one and would not be likely to pay more for the Cavalex version anyway.  I don't think Cavalex will lose sales if they go ahead.

But for us on a forum it is only talk - for them it is potential financial disaster; they already have something nice going and I can understand why they would not want to risk all they have achieved so far by going up against Hornby on this.

Maybe if the Hornby version doesn't turn out to be a hit Cavalex can revisit this in a couple of years' time?

Cavalex's loss will not be Hornby's gain as far as I am concerned; I wanted a class 91 but not if it is going to be a half-hearted effort designed only to scupper the competition.  Unless Hornby produce something spectacular it will be companies like Accurascale who will get the money I was planning to spend on the Cavalex 225 - unless Cavalex themselves come up with something else I am interested in of course - then they would get first shout!

1 minute ago, Legend said:

... While generally a Hornby supporter this is leaving a bitter taste . 

I couldn't agree more - with both parts of that statement!

Very sad news indeed, but probably inevitable given Hornby's decision.

However, it was far from being a pointless exercise - no doubt it was the Cavalex 91 that prompted Hornby to update theirs.  Also, N gauge users will still get what is likely to be a fantastic model.

Well done Cav and Alex, and all the best!

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

How long ago did you last buy something from them?

 

I gave up buying stuff from them in the era you are talking about. So much stuff getting damaged in transit due to packaging that was not fit for use in the post.

 

Full marks to them for listening and improving. They just need now to stock a few more sizes of box.

Now you come to mention it, I have been using Rails and eBay a lot in recent years; I am trying to gather stock for Penzance circa 2000 and there ain't much new stuff coming out that is relevant for that!

18 hours ago, MarkSG said:

 

I've noticed that Rails tend to be a bit more wide-ranging with their packaging, and somewhat less standardised, than Hatton's. Whenever I've bought anything from Hatton's it's always arrived in a fairly standard box - typically, the long thin ones used for locos and wagons, but sometimes a larger, more rectangular one - and the box is always new. Rails seem to use whatever they have to hand, and don't mind reusing boxes - my Bachmann crane arrived in the box that Bachmann sent it to Rails in, but with the extra space (since I'd only ordered one) filled with foam packaging.

That is fascinating! Not once in my life have I ever received anything from Hattons in a new box! It has always been a cut down and taped together version of what had obviously been used before! They also used to arrive wrapped in brown paper tied with string!

Colin.

On 16/01/2020 at 08:21, Legend said:

 

But possibly more realistic .   I feel sorry for Bachmann . Announce new models and be met with derision that we will get them in 5 years . Announce nothing in the hope of recovering the backlog and be met with criticism for being boring .

 

Best course of action is the one they are taking , update on where they are with models already announced and maybe some exciting reliveries . The LMS Crimson  Rambler seems a good one . Then maybe give us a surprise in the year.

 

Hopefully their skin is thick enough to stand a few humourous remarks! I, for one, was always glad to know that when Bachmann announced a new item I wanted I would have at least four years to figure out how to gather the money to buy it!

And, with the new class 158 being such a good model, I am sure there are many (like me) who will be happy to see more liveries on it; I have been waiting for a SWT version and was *so* excited when I saw the catalogue picture for the first time, until I realised it was, of course, EMT!  I have also been waiting for the new Class 117 in BR Blue-Grey which is coming this year. With the Cavalex 225 project and Accurascale seemingly having a direct line to my model rail wishlist, I will be glad if I get another "quiet" year from Bachmann! I fully expect a revamped Voyager to the same standard as the new Cl58's  in VXC, AXC and AWC liveries but I don't want them for another couple of years!

Colin.

On 15/01/2020 at 22:20, RBE said:

Hi all. I feel that hearsay has reared its head again.

 

At this point we have not decided on how the coaching stock will be sold as yet.

 

Our latest thoughts are that the dvt, buffet and TSOE would be sold as a set, as each train would need one each of these, then the TSOs and TFOs would be available seperately with enough differing running numbers of each to form a full rake if necessary. Of course that way you can build up a rake of any length that you require.

 

As mentioned previously we will be issuing an update on project 225 this weekend.

 

Regards

Cav

 

 

Looking forward to the update; I also think your approach to the coaches is spot on.

I’m hoping there will be info on how to order the ‘Flying Scotsman’ LNER loco & dvt - that is the one I’m waiting to preorder!

All the best

cwam

I am rather late coming to this party but this is great news! I have (I am sure along with many others) been waiting for a decent Class 91 for years! I am so glad now that I did not buy the Hornby 225 VTEC pack a few years back, I would be kicking myself now.

This year has seen a lot of models planned that I have been hoping for - Mk5's for TPE and Caledonian sleepers, an LNER Azuma, ScotRail HSTs; now all I need to do is figure out how I am going to get to work after I sell our car to buy them all...!

Hello everyone, newbie here - first post, although I have been lurking for quite a while and especially enjoying this thread and the equivalent Hornby one.

I don't really have much to add to the discussion except to say that I fully agree with this post by farren:

At frist glance it dose seem a bit of a anticlimax. However with the slight backlog this gives them time to catch up some what.

I think it also helps their future releases as we have a year not knowing what they are as I doubt Bachmann are going to let the researchers and cad people have a year off twiddling their thumbs. So I wonder if this will lead to announcements of projects at a later stage of development which from a public view speeds up the process.

And puts the competition at a disadvantage not knowing what Bachmann are planning 5 years down the road.

Everyone has been complaining for years that Bachmann have been taking too long to get from announcement to actual product available to buy and I think the only possible way they have to address this is to start announcing projects when they are much further along the production process.  I am sure that is what Hornby do - I can't see them only starting now with research and CAD etc for the products they have for their 2019 range - all that stuff must surely have been done and the production fairly well along so that what they announce will appear more or less in the year it is supposed to.

But if Bachmann are to switch to doing that (as opposed to seemingly putting stuff in the catalogue because somebody somewhere thought it would be a good idea to do one sometime) then it must mean that there is at least one year when they don't announce anything new (well, hardly). And the fact that they have had to change their factory etc gives them the perfect reason to say to everyone, "nothing much this year - factory problems!" and most people will understand.

It would not surprise me if, for example, Bachmann let their nice new Cl 90 sell (hopefully) well for a few years while at the same time doing their research, CAD etc on the Cl 91 without saying anything to anyone about it until it is well along the production process. (Full disclosure: an updated class 91 is something I have been longing for so there is probably more optimism than sense in my prediction for that particular model but you get the principle!)

Plus, TBH, I was sort of glad in a way; I model modern image and no-one beats Bachmann for the range of their MUs - I am already saving for the Cl 117 in BR Blue-Grey, and the Scotrail Cl170.  I am hoping that future years will see the return of a retooled Cl221 which I will want in both Virgin and Arriva XC, and what I really am hoping for above all is a CL159 3-car unit in SWT. But at today's prices all of those will easily take up my budget for at least the next 5 years so the more time there is between them the better!

It so happens that this year Hornby has come out with at least three major items I wtb and, unlike Bachmann, it is not unusual for Hornby to have something available this year that is gone from the range next year so I probably wouldn't have been buying much Bachmann this year even if they had announced a load of new stuff.

Anyway, thanks everyone for such a great discussion; I look forward to catching up on all the other threads!