Morello Cherry

I think it is always wise to check the calendar before visiting any railway.

Sartre must have come back from a war on the line weekend or a diesel gala when he wrote 'hell is other people'.

Sometimes you have to suck it up though. The Great Gathering was really interesting to visit, nice engines and all but you just have to accept that there will be a disproportionate number of boorish men with beer guts talking too loudly and photographers who mistakenly think they are Jesus and their photo is the most important thing in the world. 

2 minutes ago, 5944 said:

I've argued this point with John Bailey on the NYMR forum - as a parent there is absolutely no incentive for me to take my family for a visit to the railway. Yes, to use it to visit Goathland or Whitby as we've done in the past, but to actually spend the day on the railway, why bother? There's nothing to do. Where are the events to attract children?

 

The Bluebell is running kids for a quid for a lot of the year, and has children's attractions pretty much every weekend over the summer. Animals, TV characters, dinosaurs - the vast majority of which won't cost a huge amount to hire for the day and will bring in extra customers. The Moors tried some children's activities at the February half term when 46100 visited, but generally there is nothing happening. The field at Levisham would've been perfect - an hour or so there would be long enough for a magic show, theatre show, that sort of thing, and catering was available. But the railway is marketing itself as simply a park and ride service for Whitby.

Compare and contrast with Ropley on the MHR as an example of what can be done with a mid-line station that has 'nothing more' than some interesting topiary, a nice station building and the engine shed. (I appreciate that for many the latter is a major selling point for many on here but not those with a family).

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2021/04/new-steam-locomotive-climbing-frame-arrives-at-ropley-station.html - catering, plus playground and on weekends/special events, the miniature railway as well

https://watercressline.co.uk/itinerary-family-friendly/

MHR even has toddler events for a £5 - https://watercressline.co.uk/special-days/little-locos-watercress-line-toddler-group/

I am not so sure. For example a cafe with nice food is hard (and expensive) to do. Consider this a railway with a paid staff would have to recruit mostly seasonal staff for a cafe. No point in staffing it in Nov when there are no trains running.

If you go in house you need staff. If you go with Brakes etc to supply then you have to pay through the eyeballs for the food and it still needs to be prepared, even if that is just sticking stuff in the microwave or oven.

There are a lot of temporary chefs available it is true, but in a tourist area, there will be a lot of demand and the good ones can pick and choose where the best money/easiest life is. My experience in social care where I worked with a lot of temporary agency chefs (because the money was pony) and what I found was twofold - a lot of unreliable chefs, or good chefs with crappy personalities (too many Gordon Ramsey wannabies). (We had one guy who used to leave skidmarks in his chefs whites, he was also innumerate, which was a problem when one of the biggest tasks was getting the right number of meals for each round but I digress to illustrate some of the issues). Now what that meant was that there was a huge amount of churn, you might get a good chef for a week before they get offered more money at the hotel down the road or the restaurant in town. This in turn leads to inconsistency in the quality of food, service etc as you search for a new chef and end up with someone with a drink problem instead.

The only way to retain good staff is to pay more and this in turn cuts into your profit margin.

A cafe might seem like an easy win but I am not sure that it is always the case.

Second thing - enthusiasts are likely to come on here, National Preservation, facebook or the forums and complain because the loco was wrong, but generally they are not likely to not go because the loco was too big.

Tourists are likely to go onto trip advisor, facebook, the circle of hell that is Mumsnet etc and complain and that is what tourists are also most likely to read.

I'd also suggest that people have a look at the comments (rather than the ratings) for the NYMR in the last month and see if they can spot any leitmotifs.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g191269-d261307-Reviews-North_Yorkshire_Moors_Railway-Pickering_North_Yorkshire_England.html

18 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I'll confess I've never been on it, but "too long" wouldn't put me off. Sounds like it would feel like I've been on an actual journey. Mind you I'm probably not that general tourist market, since I'd be interested in the ride for its own sake and don't have a family in tow.

This is the point. If we go for a ride our group will go from 2-75 including a grumpy 13 year old. A hour or so is the best any of them will last without access to a good toilet or food. For the money the NYMR would be a very hard sell compared to the SVR for example.

The Vienna tram network, for example has its own heritage fleet which it houses, maintains and runs. It has always surprised me that there has never been any effort to create an electric traction heritage fleet. I suspect it might have been possible under say BR to have kept a collection at say Willisden, Crewe, etc but not in this privatised world. 

The nearest we have is the hedge funders 1:1 trainset.

I half wonder if the view is that the KWVR is for the enthusiasts and the NYMR is for the tourists.

A few things PDSR is pretty much ideal length for tourists. Plugs into other things, connects with NR ie the various rail tours to Kingswear, has a captive tourist market ie lots of tourists without a huge amount to do other than go to the beach or zoo.

The NYMR is too long, no railtours, lots of better alternatives for tourists' money.

I'd suggest that a lot of the more vain and egotistical railway managers have looked at the PDSR and thought "I'd like some of that, no more volunteers standing in my way". Think another line that runs to a rundown seaside town.

Too many senior people seem to believe their own media hype and the fawning coverage in the railway press. (Which let's be honest is just churnalisk these days and a digest of press releases).

On 29/05/2024 at 21:46, Michael Hodgson said:

Lever collars were mentioned in a number of accident reports. 

Not using them was never the primary cause of accidents - but if one had been used it could have jogged the signalman's memory.

 

Signalmen who routinely used them were much less inclined to make mistakes through distraction.

The same was true with Rule 55, although the fireman sitting by the stove helping the signalman to drink tea might sometines have been the distraction!

This post and the one by @Jeremy Cumberland made me think of Quintinshill just 5 years later. Aren't lever collars (or non-use of them) one of the causes of Quintinshill. Also, re rule 55 the fireman of the local was sent to box by his driver and then promptly failed to remind the signalmen of his position or to check that the lever collar was on.

A good as an example as there is that even if you have safety rules, they aren't any good if they aren't applied

TBH I did have to check that the album wasn't BnM on Craggy Island.

Struggling to find somewhere to stay near your favourite line. Why not stay in an BnM Rail Caravan?

I'd also say that BnM were well ahead of the curve on adopting the rail bus approach.
 

One for those who love a good kit bash and a bit of weathering.

On 31/05/2024 at 00:32, roythebus1 said:

In effect it was carrying Marmite!! Yeay, a Marmite wagon!

So on its way to a toxic waste dump?

On 02/01/2020 at 17:42, Nearholmer said:

To avoid a repeat of the The Terrible Glen Trummoch Malt Extract Explosion of ‘ninety-seven, in which an entire valley was left dripping with warm, brown goo, perhaps?

You may mock but the Boston Molasses Disaster  which led to a 25ft high tidal wave of 13,000 tons of molasses killed 21  and injured 150 in 1919 (it damaged the Boston Elevated Railway to give it a railway connection).

The odd thing is that the class 20 doesn't appear to move and I can't see any wagons dropped off or in the yard to be picked up.

If this is the first image you'd expect the wagons to be attached to it if it were making an attachment. It seems pretty clear what is in the yard, what is in the yard is pretty far back.

If this is it backing up to make a drop or to pick anything up the train doesn't look long enough given where the wires end. There are only 7 wagons to go to the 'do not go past this point' sign.

Maybe I am missing something but I can't see where anything has been left in this shot.

The 20 doesn't seem to move which makes me think it wasn't doing any shunting and I can't see anything in the yard in the sequence of photos that suggests that something has been picked up or is close enough to have been left by the electric loco setting back.

2 hours ago, Northmoor said:

We are in danger of being in a heated agreement, as I could have written much the same myself.  My point is that the NYMR still has a good product but is probably selling it wrong.

 

Sorry if you felt my comment a personal criticism, it wasn't really intended to be, just saying that these lines' scenery form much of their (advertised) attraction but you said it didn't appeal to you.  Their scenery hasn't (generally) changed, so either these railways are selling their product wrong or fewer of the public want a scenic ride; I don't believe the latter to be true.

 

The IoW is an interesting example using my description of, "A railway from nowhere to nowhere through nowhere in particular".  The fact that it is successful despite that suggests how well it is run, focussing on providing a nearly unique product (the Bluebell on some days provides similar).

No worries. My point is that it isn't enough to say we have great scenery or a great destination because others can say we have better, or we offer you something more.

I'd argue that no line has a god given right to exist or to be a big player. Saying we've always been a big player, or we go through beautiful countryside or we have a great destination isn't enough. In the end good management is what matters. There is little that can stop a line becoming Peak Rail, and I struggle to think of any line that hasn't had its crises. A lucky line is a line that can get rid of bad managers quickly - I think the FR a while back and the SVR more recently are good examples, Peak Rail is an example of a line with huge potential squandered because of bad management. My impression of seeing the NYMR senior figures in the media, people such as John Bailey's interventions on the WSR issues and elsewhere, is of extremely arrogant and entitled people who believe themselves to be superior to everyone else involved in preservation. Their argument is a circular one - the NYMR is the best line in the world, look at all our HRA prizes, look at our TV series, we run the NYMR, therefore we are the best managers in the world which is why the NYMR is the best line in the world, bow down before us proles.

Ironically, the organisation that NYMR reminds me of most of all the moment is actually Yorkshire CCC.

The IOW is well run, I'd say conservative with a small c in its approach - it isn't trying to extend to Cowes or Ryde anytime soon, it has I imagine low overheads (few bridges, or anything that can suddenly give them a massive infrastructure headache) and can focus in on doing what it does well very well. Somewhere like say the Spa Valley is I think another interesting line which is well managed, in a crowded market in the south east (Bluebell, IOW, MHR, KESR, RH&D) it is doing a good job of creating a niche for itself by offering something different to the other lines. So I don't think there is any given reason why a railway can't succeed even if it is in a crowded market, not in an obvious tourism market (you are not going to convince me that Tunbridge Wells is a tourism hotspot).

28 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

I think you must have a unique view of what's appealing if you can't see the attraction of the NYMR, WSR or Llangollen and you must not have explored Whitby much if you think it similar to Swanage or Minehead.  The NYMR had the largest preserved railway passenger total (300,000 plus) long before it extended to Whitby, before Bangers and Cash and even before Heartbeat.  It runs through attractive scenery up a valley inaccessible by road, in an area always popular with day trippers.  It must be doing something right (current issues aside).

 

It is generally accepted that preserved railways need to (must) provide three things for happy visitors: Views, Brews and Loos.  Everything else is an extra.

There is no need to get personal.

I've visited all the lines at various times over the years. I'm sorry but not sorry but the NYMR was one to tick off for me rather than one to make a point of revisiting. Whitby is nice and all that but I'm not 'I can't wait to go to Whitby again'.

In describing NYMR you've hit the nail on the head of the root cause of their problems (and of all the lines in trouble). They have all assumed that because they have been there for a long time that they cannot possibly fail. There is a complacency at heart of it 'because we've been the biggest we will always be the biggest'.

Is not the Nene Valley a perfect example of a line that has been around since virtually the beginning of rail preservation? Again, the warning signs of decline have been there for a long time.

There are two things at play - and let us take the WSR as an example - 30 years ago they were in effect the only game in town in the South West until you hit Devon. No GWSR, no Dean Forest, no L&B. Now there are more lines competing, others such as the ESR and PDSR have upped their game - if I want to sell a ride to the seaside with something to do afterwards the PDSR is much more attractive than the WSR. If I want a train ride then tbh the L&B is more appealing. You can't assume that your competitors for the tourists' money are going to stay still.

If I were in Mid Wales I'd have the choice of say the CHR, Llangollen, and W&L, now to my eyes the W&L looks to have upped its game and makes it more interesting to me to visit, CHR is new and could easily fit in as a quick visit in morning or afternoon. Llangollen I'd go but probably as a sympathy spend because I don't want them to go to the wall and clearly the previous management has a huge amount to answer for.

The reality is that passenger needs and demands change over time and I think some lines are working out what the best service pattern is post-covid. And this is not new - let us take the FR in the 1970s with 4 sets running in high season, short turn arounds shortish trains, to the 1990s with an hourly service, long turn around times in Porthmadog, to what we have today. I can well recall an article in I guess the 1980s saying that there was no real need for any Fairlies because they were over-powered and expensive and what the line needed was more Hunslet type locos, to the 2000s when pretty much every summer service would be hauled by a Fairlie and the smaller locos rarely appeared, to covid when it was all about the smaller locos to post-covid where things change again. Has the FR got its post-covid approach right? I don't know. Passenger tastes and demands change, who the tourists are change.Maybe 20 years ago you could rely on two or three coach tours a day to fill a couple of carriages on several trips, if the market for coach trips declines then lo and behold those captive market tourists aren't around anymore. The extra spend in the shop, in the cafe isn't there and you've lost a significant chunk of income through no real fault of your own. Maybe 2 hours was fine 20 years ago, maybe most people think it is too long now, maybe it doesn't look like value for money in the way in which it did compared to other tourist offers in the area.

I happen to know the GM of a preserved line, one of the decisions they made was to reduce the number of steaming days and to reduce the number of trains running. There was a degree of opposition to this, as it was, they carried more passengers on fewer trains and made more money. Some of this was marketing, some of this is trying to reach different markets - ie different catering options, (ie different spins on drink and ride, eat and ride), some of this is different kids options - ie if everyone else is doing Bing or Thomas, then you offer Peppa, Hey Duggee, because why offer exactly the same as your competitors.

The attitude wasn't 'we are in a beautiful area, we have been around for a long time, we are a name', it was 'what can we do differently to improve our financial bottom line, keep the line open and keep the nice to have things we have.'

My point remains - the appeal of a destination is subjective. A nowhere to nowhere line can thrive if it has a USP - IOWR is a classic example of this - no where else can you ride experience that kind of small engine, quality rolling stock, because no one travels to Wootton or Smallbrook Jnc for the destination. The other point is that you need to appeal to a diversified market - what appeals to one section of punters is not going to appeal to another. And the question I think a number of lines are failing to ask is 'are we offering enough different appeals to attract a broad range of punters'. Just because you used to have 300,000 visitors a year doesn't mean that you always will. Just because you have a destination in name, doesn't mean that people will always flock to it. It is a little bit like the fans of a struggling championship football team claiming 'we're a big club, we should be playing in Europe every year'. To which the answer is 'used to be, now others are better, you've been mismanaged and that's why you've got an away fixture against Millwall next week and not Real Madrid'.

I'd suggest that the 'somewhere' is always somewhat subjective. There are few lines that actually run to a classic destination ie VoR, TR, Snowdon

Generally for example I would say that Porthmadog is more interesting than say Blaenau Ffestiniog, Alresford more interesting than Alton, Sheffield Park more interesting than East Grinstead. In other words the starting point or where the line is focused is more interesting than where the line ends.

I'd suggest that even some of the established names struggle to sell that they have a destination ie SDR, IOW,

Whitby is a destination if you are into Vampires but tbh a seaside destination is no different than you can get at any number of lines from the WSR, P&D, Swanage etc.

A lot I guess depends on the lines ability to sell wherever it is going to as a place you want to go, or to sell the journey itself as an experience.

WCR (for all their faults) can sell the Jacobite as an experience (because let's be honest, Mallaig is nice enough but not really somewhere you'd make a special trip to), the Ffestiniog can sell its self as an experience, the IOW can sell itself as an experience. However, when I am looking at lines that have been in trouble in recent years - Llangollen, WSR, Nene Valley, NYMR I am struggling to work out what the selling point is. Nice views? Home of reality TV stars (check out the Bangers and Cash show room in Pickering???), travelling on NR behind a steam engine? None of this screams 'line you have to visit' to me. There isn't anything other than being very long that really separates it out from any other heritage line (apart from perhaps an inflated sense of its own importance among its senior figures).

There is a part of me that would love to see one of the VOR tanks repainted in BR Blue with nameplate, whisper it quietly but it is an iconic livery. GWR liveries are just a bit blah and they've been out of BR blue for almost 40 odd years.

*Grows misty eyed at the memories of trips down the coast to Aber followed by the return home and the 'treat' of tea in the Milk Bar in Porthmadog*

On 26/05/2024 at 10:01, ess1uk said:

So I’m still unsure where the capacity to run the service is going to be found?

I was under the impression that the route was already congested 

I am not sure where the capacity, rolling stock, or staff are going to come from. It always seems a bit unicorn thinking.

Changing the subject slightly - the ironic thing about Virgin when they were running trains, for all the annoying self promoting, idiotic and creepy publicity stunts involving Branson, it did obscure one really important and useful social function that Virgin played, namely their work on helping ex-offenders rehabilitate by employing them (Timpson are another company that does the same).  https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/20/rail-company-helps-ex-offenders-virgin-trains

14 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Most services now continue formed 6-car (occasionally 5) rather than 3, west of Salisbury. It used to be mayhem when six were taken of the back of a 9-car down at Salisbury. F&S to at least Gillingham and not certain to be "civilised" before Yeovil.

 

A while back, the 3-set in a 5-car afternoon up formation failed in St Davids and the service, on which I was intending to travel, ran as a 2-car to at least Yeovil, if not Salisbury. Not nice!

 

It was already 40 late so I waited for the next one, on-time, and full-length, twenty minutes behind it.

 

I was amazed how few others did likewise... 

 

John

On the Cotswold line a favoured party trick of FGW was to take an HST scheduled for the route and use it to fill in for any HST failures elsewhere. No greater joy than finding that your 8 car HST was in fact a 2 or 3 car 165.

But considering the frequency of the service to and from Slough, Reading and Oxford, it was amazing the number of people who would still try to pile in at either end of the line.

57 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

... presumably for labels rather than passenger tickets. ( Before anyone else looks the place up - as I had to - Tiddingon is west of Thame : the station lasted from 1866 to 1963.)

I did double check that it wasn't on Sodor.

Yes, for parcels labels.

I disgress but the book is a really interesting record of the lines out of Paddington from 1968 to 1978. (Basically covers to Paddington the lines as far as Moreton in Marsh, Banbury, Swindon, Basingstoke, Guildford). From hydraulics to HSTs but he also took a lot of photos of freight and parcels workings as well along with random things at stations that caught his eye - ie the gas lighting at Hanwell.

Thinking about @scalerailmodelling's interest in 08 shunting, the photo on the previous page to the one of the Windsor parcels cubby holes is one of an 08 shunting at Slough while being passed by a 47 on a very mixed parcels train (MK1 BSO/K, SR PMV, LMS GUV).

On 24/05/2024 at 12:43, The Stationmaster said:

It was quite common for stations to retain old stocks of  tickets until they ran out and this was particularly the case with low issue tickets which didn't sell in any quantity so didn't need to be re-ordered.  The only problem they created for Booking Clerks was that youwere supposed to draw a line through the price printed on the ticket before you issued it if the price was out of date.

 

The withdrawal of such tickets - apart from those affected by earlier closures - really got going towards the mid 1960s as it became uneconomic to retain printed stock for low issues and paper tickets could be used instead.  But some were still about in Booking Offices I knew of as late as 1966/67 (Windsor WR was apparently one place where many were still in stock).  But within the next couple of years the final purge got underway with all low issue, high value, printed tickets being one of the first targets (Pre 1948 or later) because they were highly susceptible to fiddling by any less scrupulous Booking Clerks.

FWIW I recently came across in K.G.Jones 'Diesels West of Paddington' (Ian Allan, 1981) on p.14 a photograph of what he describes as the parcels cubby holes at Windsor WR taken in 1977. He notes that it had gone when he revisted it in 1979.

Notable in the photo is that destinations visible in the photo include Tiddington, Shepton Mallet, Oswestry among others. All labels printed with GWR above the destination.

Some more photos of Plymouth Friary from 1972 and 1976 which gives you a good idea of potential wagons obviously being run down by the mid 70s. But it does mean that you could model it in various different stages, either busy or in decline.

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/millbay-friary--stonehouse-branch.html

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/1034830_orig.jpg

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/1306791_orig.jpg

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/7049777_orig.jpg

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/6187436_orig.jpg

1976

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/plymouth-friary-demise-of-1-760420a-demolition-at-plymouth-friary-copyright-roger-winnen-orig_orig.jpg

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/plymouth-friary-demise-of-2-760420b-demolition-at-plymouth-friary-copyright-roger-winnen-orig_orig.jpg

2 hours ago, 30368 said:

I have long thought that the introduction and development of the 4-6-0 wheel arrangement in the UK (It was well established elsewhere) was a very interesting time for locomotive development in the UK. Some locomotive engineers struggled with the concept, notably Drummond on the LSWR and to a lesser extent Robinson (An engineer I have a great deal of respect for) as well as engineers on the LNWR.

On the one hand they seemed to have assumed that building a 4-6-0 was just a case of building a bigger 4-4-0 on the other hand some thought that the more cylinders you could cram in the better. I am not criticising these engineers indeed I find the wide variety of 4-6-0 types fascinating since it provides so many different prototypes to model.

It seems to me that Mr Churchward, based to some extent on his knowledge of US practice, designed a series of locomotive types that set the standard for the next two decades that was followed by all GWR engineers and greatly influenced the LMS range of standard locomotives. Having said that, Mr Urie, faced with the Drummond 4-6-0 inheritance designed a series of simple two cylindered locomotives with outside Whalschaerts valvegear that performed well (Although even better when Maunsell fitted to some longer travel valves) and were cheap to maintain and fairly popular with enginemen. Examples of the Urie 4-6-0's lasted into the 1960s and some to the end of steam on the SR. As Morello above, and myself on a number of occasions, Mr Urie's 4-6-0s were true pioneering engines of what became the British 4-6-0 Mixed Traffic engine of which well over a thousand were eventually constructed.

 

I have built examples of the following 4-6-0's:

 

H15 all varieties.

S15

N15

N15X

B9

B16/1

 

Still to build:

B7

BR Std 5

 

Kind regards,

 

30368

 

 

I think you have three or perhaps four design responses which are successful:

1) Holden/Whale - inside cylinder. Looking a lot like a late Victorian/Edwardian 4-4-0 with an extra set of drivers.

2) Churchward - enough said.

3) Raven - several versions before the S3 which works.

4) Urie - 2 outside cylinder, whalschaerts valve gear, which basically became the standard through to the end of steam, excepting of course Swindon's 'sonderweg'.

It is a fascinating period because it includes so many deadends and unsuccessful designs, and that so many excellent designers struggled to produce a successful 4-6-0. Robinson is a prime example, he could design a superb 2-8-0 but not a 4-6-0.

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Well you did deem the Claughtons to be failures. Far from it.

 

If they were that bad then why did the Southern nick the design for the Lord Nelsons?

 

 

 

Jason

I've no problem accepting that my views are purely subjective but you'll have to forgive me here but what exactly is your evidence to support both those claims?

Of course, if true then this might explain why Lord Nelson's are not considered a high point of Southern locomotive design. Damning with faint praise.

Bottomline, railways only ever introduce new locomotives for two reasons:

i) the current locos are old, knackered and expensive to maintain due to age etc etc

ii) the current locos are recent but cannot fulfil the demands made of them, are expensive, unreliable etc etc

It is only ever a financial decision.

The Claughtons weren't the former so they must be the latter. If you are getting replaced before your contemporaries without any major shift in traffic patterns to render you prematurely obsolete, then you're not a successful design.

I mean I get that the S160s were designed with a short life expectancy, I didn't know that the Claughtons were designed with that in mind too.

"Everyone thinks they have the prettiest wife at home". 

I must have missed the note on the design brief to Urie that his engines were required to pull 14 up Shap.

The point stands that as some of the last of the pre-Grouping 4-6-0 designs they, the B12s and B16s outlasted their contemporaries and continued to carry on in the roles for which they were designed into the 1960s, which I'd consider to be evidence of a fairly successful design.

If we apply your logic, then Drummond's 4-6-0s were a success, it was just that the better H15, N15 and S15 came along very soon afterwards. 

9 hours ago, 30368 said:

 

Regarding the performance of the S15 from my reading the Urie version were good sloggers and could manage the hills ok. The Maunsell version was a better locomotive.

 

What we really need is for 499, 506 and 828 to go head to head in some trials.

11 hours ago, 1165Valour said:

Overall, how does the S15 compare to engines designed for similar work, such as the Grange? Could the S15s be properly classified as mixed traffic engines, rather than strictly goods? I remember hearing that the engines were somewhat disappointing on hills, is this accurate?

I think comparing an S15 designed in 1920 with the Grange designed in 1936 is a little unfair as locomotive design shifted quite radically in the interwar period.

I would flag up that they outlasted their contemporaries - for example Robinson's various 4-6-0s on the GCR. They (H15 and S15) are much more pioneering than they are given credit for they pre-date the Halls by 8 years. A better comparison might be with the S15s near contemporary in Raven's S3.

Also, they were a rare success in a long stream of failed 4-6-0s - the less said about Drummond's efforts the better, but also the Claughtons etc.

On 21/05/2024 at 16:40, Cwmtwrch said:

I lived and worked in London during much of the 1980s and travelled from time to time to Exeter on Friday nights and back on Sunday night. I travelled via Waterloo rather than Paddington, partly for reasons of cost [NSE had various special offers for annual season ticket holders], partly because taking a bicycle with me was free and with plenty of room in the van. The trip was comfortable enough, but took about an hour more than it did from Paddington, which didn't matter to me at the time. From memory, train occupation west of Salisbury was minimal. 

I did the journey quite a few times in the late 80s and early 90s.

The loco hauled stock was tatty but there was plenty of room. The vibe of the line in that period can best be described being like the fourth child in a family getting the hand me downs from older siblings. Compared to the line from Paddington you did not get the sense that this was an inter-city route, or even on a par with the cross country trains. (The nearest I can think of is the Cotswold line - inter-city to Oxford, branchline train to Worcester and Hereford)

As with pretty much everywhere else when the Sprinters took over  and 9 cars became 3 or 6 and so they were massively over-crowded, even west of Salisbury when they usually became 3 cars.

The irony is that when it went over to the 159s I thought that the 159s were a bit rubbish, cramped, uncomfy and with a weird smell. I recently travelled in a 159 for the first time in years and compared to the 444/450 or IEP they are a hotel on wheels with soft comfy seats, decent amount of space, quiet etc.

The other point is that the FRs gravity train has been running for the last 38 years. The the 150th Gala was the first time. (I've got a photo somewhere of horse shunting at Porthmadog as well). So this is hardly a 'new' gimmick.

If the Disneyfication police are going to intervene then I'd like to report every single Boris Johnson cosplaying 'War on the Line' event for crimes against historical accuracy.