FranksLad

Great layouts and trade support. Had a full day and really enjoyed it. Very odd that hardly any locomotive / rolling stock manufacturers were in attendance though. Only KR models from memory. No Bachmann, Hornby, Dapol, Heljan, Accurascale, Cavalex. What’s the story there?

4 hours ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Silly me....

Is the rtc layout set in 80s....with red and blue stock?

Yes ,Welby Lane.

1 hour ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Very clever the bogies look brill and underframe hiding dcc chip ...well done

This is her lit up. Before final details such as horns, handrails and wipers were added.

1 hour ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Very clever the bogies look brill and underframe hiding dcc chip ...well done

The bogies are nicked from a Lima 156, just dressed with steps, shoebeams and cables. This one is a dummy model for my friend’s RTC exhibition layout.

Ill be doing a powered 2PEP and 4PEP for my own. The 4PEP will be as built so will need bogies drawing up.

21 minutes ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Cracking model any picks of CAD and construction? 

This is CAD drawn and then printed hybrid FDM and SLA with laser cut parts and proprietary bogies. It’s a real “bitsa”, but necessary to achieve a model that is well detailed and straight.

3 hours ago, John M said:

This thread appears to be more about the options for the marketing and sale of 3D files as opposed to the next big step in 3D printing in particular small volume manufacture.

 

I trailed the production and sale of 3D printed rtr & CKD wagons using contract printers for 15 months and had to cease accepting orders because of difficulty experienced/high costs incurred by my contractor in printing small scale railway models using the SLA printing process. https://jmdesignmodelrailways.com/

 

My main interest is in models of Irish prototype and the main motivation for trailing 3D printing rtr wagons was the very low level of demand experienced over 10 years manufacturing etched kits of Irish locos and rolling stock and the growing demand for rtr models.

 

The main challenge was in finding a printing bureau/contract manufacturer that was capable and willing to undertake the low-volume (10-100) manufacture of SLA printed 4mm scale wagons.

I sent out enquiries to approximately 10 locally based (New Zealand) bureau of which 4 were willing to quote 2  of which at a realistic price.

 

I was fortunate to find a printer who was willing to print the prototype models and recommend a freelance designer, our initial model took approximately 6 months to develop from initial concept to production printing stage. The intention was to produce a 3D printed model to a similar standard to the current generation of plastic injection molded models, though using 'design clever" techniques to minimise assembly costs.  My prototype printer was initially unwilling to carry out production printing due to the high failure rate and support removal/clean up costs experienced in printing 'small scale models", his bread and butter business was rapid prototyping in connection with manufacturing industry and printing props in connection with the film industry.

 

The prints produced were of a high quality in a resilient resin with similar characteristics to injection molded plastic, allowing fine detail, relative thin wall thickness and sufficient resilience for running/break gear.

 

I initially tried a Chinese printer who came highly recommended for production printing. Although the test prints (4 complete wagons) were to a high quality our printer ran into serious problems with a high (50%) reject rate (breakages & distortion) on our first production run of 100 wagons. While our Chinese printer made considerable effort printing additional prints FOC to rectify the problem it quickly became clear that we would need to find another printer, both because of print quality and more importantly the resin used by our Chinese printer although to a similar spec. did not have similar resilient qualities to the resin used in our locally manufactured prototypes.

 

At this stage our locally based printer agreed to print our models in small batches (10-20 month), possibly to boost turnover as one of his larger customers had dropped out possibly as a result of Covid disruption. This allowed the business to continue in operation selling existing/developing new models while considering the option of taking printing in-house/finding an alternative supplier.

 

Taking printing in-house proved a non-runner, I struggled to source suitable resilient resin/achieve acceptable print quality with a desktop printer, a fullsize "bottom-up" machine similar to that used for my successful production prints was prohibitively expensive for a business producing small volumes of small scale models.

 

In the end my printer may have dropped out because the hassle of printing small scale models may not have been worth while, especially when demand for prints from manufacturing and the film industry has recovered.

 

The 3D print industry has changed considerably since I first considered 3D printing in Apl 2021, many of the small local 3D print bureau have dropped out replaced by international platforms such as Treatstock https://www.treatstock.com/.

 

Currently I am trialing prints from a supplier in South Asia quality so far and price has been reasonable, prints ordered from a local printer through Treatstock although reasonably priced appear to have been printed on a desktop "top down" home printer and are not to an acceptable standard for a commercial model, I have also experienced similar quality problems with prints at quite a higher price from a locally based 'specialist" industrial 3D printing business .

 

I suppose in the end it should not be forgotten that 3D printing was developed as a rapid prototyping process and majority of the available resins are brittle and largely unsuitable for producing detail that may break off or durable running gear.

 

 

There’s the rub. With all of the hype surrounding resin printing, people spend £200 on an Elegoo Mars and believe they’re going to be banging out Bachmann quality coach bodies left right and centre. They aren’t. SLA is a wet process, if you get a straight print you’ve done well and if you get two the same size it’s time to buy a lottery ticket. FDM is a better option for making straight and square items but the detail just isn’t there and the level of post print finishing required would make a resin purist’s hair fall out.

For now, hybrid is the way to go. FDM for go, SLA for show. The skill is in how you break a model down to get the best result from each discipline. I’m getting there but it’s taken almost three years.

14 hours ago, maridunian said:

 

If the average number of hours work per saleable print, including all preparation, test printing, clean up, packing and taking for posting were costed at even the living wage, then a realistic price for models could be calculated. 

 

We wouldn't expect anything made-to-order to be cheap in any other walk of life, would we? 

 

Mike 

 

Very true. I’ve just completed an EMU in 4mm scale using hybrid printing and other digital techniques. I’ve had enquiries to release it as a kit as no alternative is available. However for me to produce would take around 35 hours per kit. Not really viable hence not many are doing that sort of thing.

5 hours ago, billbedford said:

This is interesting, but not quite there there yet. I checked with Shapeways design features and found the minimum wall was 1mm, and the minimum embossed/engraved features 0.8 x 0.8mm.  So, 4mm coaches would come out more than a bit 'chunky'. 

Correct Bill. I uploaded a 1970s bus shelter to Shapeways that I’ve printed both FDM and SLA without issues. Rejected by Shapeways due to a part being too thin.

6 hours ago, Steven B said:

IPR on downloadable content that generates a physical object is a huge grey area. Assuming they can't be printed, eMags are relatively simple. However, when a physical object is generated where does the IPR of the originator end?

 

Is sending a Scalescenes PDF to a friend via email any different to printing out a second copy and giving them a hand full of paper?

 

Likewise, if I pay for a STL file to print at home, is there any difference in then passing that file to a friend to print themselves rather than me printing a duplicate and giving them the physical object?

 

 

Steven B.

No difference at all, it’s still copyright theft. Someone is freely distributing something you gave to them in exchange for monetary reward. 
Years ago a commercial addon was released for Microsoft Train Simulator with some of my freeware work on it. I had never given permission for that so I sought legal advice and had the product withdrawn. This is no different. Even if you aren’t paid for it, it’s still your intellectual property. The only difference is is that you cannot see the financial impact of your stl files being passed around.

On 09/01/2023 at 19:47, ikcdab said:

Why? Scalescenes can sell downloads that you are allowed to print off multiple times.  I see no difference with selling stls on line the same way?

I was selling downloadable content for Microsoft Train Simulator back as far as 2003 using the open source platform OsCommerce. It is very easy to do with PayPal integration too. You could set up an OSCommerce store in a couple of evenings. However, I get asked about releasing STLs all the time, usually from people who openly boast about making money from Thingiverse downloads. Once you sell that STL, you wave goodbye to potentially hundreds of sales, or worse, hundreds of people printing your intellectual property and making money from it. I design in 3D and sell items to fund this hobby of mine so I can’t give stuff away.

I design, make, and sell my own 3D printed items for 4mm scale. I’d like to partner with a company that could take the production away from my SLA and FDM printers. However Shapeways isn’t the answer. I’ve heard nothing but negative comments about the quality of the pieces people have bought. I’ve bought small items from them as a kind of “trial” and these were fine, however I’m not in the market for a £96 EMU car especially if it comes back like a banana.

As anyone who has printed resin coach or wagon bodies will testify, it’s a horrible process with sometimes unpredictable results. I guess that’s why many of the companies that offered it have gone. Printing a 4mm scale wagon can be a 4 hour print. How does one make money on those run rates?!

12 hours ago, RAF96 said:

 

Explain awful in which way. My Hornby Class 73 decoders on test are fine in my opinion.

Not questioning the decoders. It would be Hornby’s next attempt at a 73 fit for 2023 that would trouble me.

4 hours ago, Chrisr40 said:

Maybe Hornby 2023 range ?

Hopefully not. It will be indescribably awful in some way.

24 minutes ago, Chrisr40 said:

Put the Hornby chip in a Dapol version with an 8 pin to 21 pin adaptor then. 

That would work. Just the awful pickups and intermittent “connected through fresh air” lighting to fix on the Dapol one then………

Please Heljan, give us a 4mm 73.

23 minutes ago, Chrisr40 said:

Put the Hornby chip in a Dapol version with an 8 pin to 21 pin adaptor then. 

Great advice…..

Fusion 360. Easy to learn and get good results quickly.

I use VSDs on JMRI. It’s a good compromise. Sourcing sounds isn’t a problem if you also happen to have Train Simulator on your PC and you only wish to use the sounds for your own use 😉

On 16/12/2022 at 15:13, RAF96 said:

Hornby will have a bi-mode Class 73 sound decoder out in January. The one I have on test is very good.

Pity “their” 73 doesn’t run on Code75 rail due to the Lima pizza cutter wheels. No one told Hornby that 2000 - 2023 happened, sadly.

You’ll be lucky if it cuts through the price label…..

If everyone on here learned CAD, the market would be a glorious haven of models perfect in every detail……….

However as they won’t, sadly it’s a case of “best you’re gonna get until ya do”……

Of only these companies would employ someone who knows how to research the subject AND draw it….

PM me if you like, I’ll send over my CV and portfolio 😉