Blefuscu

As an aside, I've just had an email back from the British Library regarding that book.

TLTR: Technically, they are still in a bit of a mess. Last time I was there to look at some OS maps, I had to put a paper request in and come back in an hour - but this is in another building and will take two days.

Quote

Dear Michael,

Thank you for your enquiry. The book - British Rail Mark 2 coaches : the design that launched Intercity, shelf-mark: fm01/1432 is available to request for the registered readers only. This book is stored in our off-site location at Boston Spa, Yorkshire and the delivery time is 48 hours. You need to make two visits, one for to place the request and another to view the material. We do have another copy but that is not available due to the cyber attack last year.

 

If you have a reader pass then please make a note of the shelf-mark, collect a paper order form from the Reading Room staff, fill in the required details, and return it to the Issue Desk. We currently have a limit of 6 requests per day. Please note that last orders should be submitted by 15:45. We are not taking any advance orders at the moment. Please accept our sincere apologies for any inconvenience.

A little update to reflect my new found knowledge.

Some semblance of a chassis is beginning to appear too. 

On 15/05/2024 at 00:01, Flood said:

The positions shown on the Mk2B BFK drawing are correct.

Just a note on this diagram. The reproduction of AB104 in my pdf of book 200 from the Barrowmore Group is pretty poor. However, the older diagram BR164 is much clearer. ( Available from http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/CS/Coaching_Stock_N3_web.pdf )

Found some nice images here showing the roof here:  https://coaches-library.weebly.com/mk2a---bfk.html

2 hours ago, Flood said:

Just one thing to be careful of. The BR diagram has the BSO roof vent positions for the Mk2 BFK and Mk2A BFK, I first noticed this when Bachmann got theirs wrong and I noticed the BR diagrams in Harris were also incorrect.  The positions shown on the Mk2B BFK drawing are correct.

I'd have probably missed that, thanks!

Finding clear images of roof vents can be tricky.

6 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

 

The Barrowmore group have the BR coach diagrams on their website. They aren't the most detailed drawings, but they are dimensioned and you can see stuff like the different window spacings. 

 

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/CS/Book_No_200_EK_web.pdf

 

I guess it was thought worth having the expense of different body shells to get an extra three feet of van space in the later Mk2 BSOs. 

Yes, I've got those thanks - they are a good starting point. I use them for scale, and the layout of main features.. and I keep a printed copy next to me to make notes on.

8 hours ago, bradfordbuffer said:

how easy would it be for a second file for each coach to be included one with vents one with locating holes?

I think all printed roofs suffer from this, and it's not a bad idea. In theory, it's not difficult to do either. I simply cut the vents away from the model instead of joining them.... although they have to be scaled up first to create a small gap, and each cut needs a bit of cleaning up.

I was thinking about it for the 313s, as there were 2 options for the vents there. Ultimately, I went in favour of trying to sand around the vents, instead of more tiny things to print/scrape off the FEP.

The other issue is version control... if I have to make a change to the body later, that needs rippling out to every version I made. I think all printed roofs suffer from this though, and it's not a bad idea... but i might just see how the vented version turns out before I try the vent hole version.

6 hours ago, Flood said:

Yes. The Mk2 and Mk2A builds used the same shell for the BSO and BFK. For completeness there were no Mk2B BSOs and the Mk2C, Mk2D, Mk2E and Mk2F BSOs all had second class window spacing so were a different body to the Mk2C and Mk2D BFKs.

Excellent,  thanks for the confirmation 👍

This is the first draft of the BSO.

I believe, externally, it's the same coachwork as the BFK, is this the case?

The windows and doors are in place, but no steps or gaps under on the doors yet, and I need to shuffle the roof vents around...

49 minutes ago, peak experience said:

einseitig and beidsetig

I think this refers to single sided or double insulating bushes on the axle.

In either case, mine were beidsetig.

I had a look back at my order, I paid...

50 TT wheel sets for Tillig / BTTB - Size: 8.3, Insulated: on both sides 1 piece   €44.96

Shipping Worldwide / Worldwide €12.00

14 hours ago, gc4946 said:

Many of your carriage projects (Mk2a etc) surely will be much appreciated by fellow 1:120 modellers. 

My feeling is that I'd rather have the 3D models in my library, even if Hornby did make a Mk2a. I'll probably even do my own HST at some point! Subsequently I don't really follow the releases, but I imagine they might be waiting a long time for a 2a otherwise. 

14 hours ago, bradfordbuffer said:

And for the slightly larger minority scale of 3mm....but the boys and girls in British Ho and S should also take a interest!

Yes, if I get it right, I hope it will have a wide appeal across TT, and other scales. There are possibly scratch builders in OO, who'd prefer to do there own thing too.  I was surprised how many people are printing the 313 in OO. I thought that would have been catered for.

I don't think I'm far off the TSO and the BSO bodies. I'm thinking about releasing them soon on an 'attribution license', so anyone can access, share, and modify them as long as they credit the original file.... and give an option for donations rather than charging anything for the files themselves. I just think of all the resources that I used to design them, that people have collated and share for free, and it seems like a better way to give something back. I also benefit from giving other people the opportunity to develop the files. 

That's my thinking anyway... this weekend I've been tasked with oiling two sets of garden furniture so not much progress happening !

On 08/05/2024 at 23:09, Flood said:

everything else is an SO.

Ah, I see now! Thanks again.

1 hour ago, peak experience said:

I've just measured the diameter of the wheel of a Hornby TT120 brake van; i haven't got fancy digital callipers, but they're around 9mm.i'm wondering if these then would appear to be the best option for other goods vehicles. would you concur? I quite fancy having a go at scratch building some Bogie Bolster wagons. 

I haven't got my notes with me, but I think I came to a similar conclusion...  however, I was drawn to that bulk bag of 50 on a £/wheelset basis.

2 hours ago, Flood said:

The use of TSO or SO seems to have depended on the Region. The Eastern seems to have preferred SO which is slightly strange as the LNER came up with the Tourist Third/Second Open designation for 2+2 seating in the first place.

 

One other design of Eastern Region coach you missed was the BFK. The following were certainly Eastern Region until renumbered for POIS in 1983/84:

 

Mk2A BFK: 14088-90, 14092-94, 14098

Mk2D BFK: 14143-46, 14148-50, 14153-55, 14158, 14161

Thanks again, that's really useful. I'll add a BFK to the list.  

I'm still a bit confused about the SOs. I can only find 11 Mk2 SO's E5229-38, E5249, and no Mk2A or Mk2D

9 hours ago, Flood said:

Once the Mk2D TSOT coaches were delivered from 1980 to early 1981 the York semi-fasts used these instead of an RBR so the whole rake, apart from the BG, would have been air-con stock.

That's good to know... air-con stock is easier to print too. I like the mk2d rakes with the RBR in the middle though

Something that confused me regarding the carriage workings was the reference to SO's throughout the document - yet the coaching stock book and Hugh Longworths book both suggest SO's were pretty thin on the ground at this point, so I'm assuming TSO's were used there?

1 hour ago, Flood said:

The rakes with the RKB and RUO restaurant coaches were superseded by HSTs from 1978 and think that only the York semi-fasts were running as loco hauled from 1980 (not sure about trains to Cleethorpes or Hull or Bradford). Prior to 1980 the Eastern also had Mk2F FO and TSO coaches but these were allocated away during 1979.

Thanks, I didn't make a note of my sources ( I think it may have been the LNER forum? or here even?) but I had noted the RKB/RUO rake was 1978... which would make sense. I just hadn't realised they stopped then.  I guess the moment I  introduce the HST it becomes invalid then, so I might put those two on the back burner... or I slip backwards a couple of years.

I've just remembered that I have a copy of 1980 Coaching Stock, I think that's where I picked up on them being likely Mk2D.

You post gave me pause for thought regarding the quality of my original notes, and I've had a look at the 1980 ECML carriage workings. I don't pretend to find these documents easy reading... but I think I've found a mk2a rake BSO-SO-SO-SO-RBR-SO-FK , and a mk2d/f rake SO-SO-SO-SO-RKB-SO-FK-BG that would look plausible?

Ultimately, I suppose, I only need to convince myself that it looks right - but i'm enjoying the research.

A little bit of progress on the mk2a TSO this weekend...

None of the handrails will be on the final STL, they are just markers for the wire holes.

On 29/04/2024 at 00:38, stevel said:

I would suggest printing upside down at 145 degrees on the long axis, that way the support attachments are inside the wagon body, and along the top edge. This angle allows you to use less supports, and leaves the delicate items below the solebar to form with minimal support needed.

If you are going to print a container upside down, I would recommend putting a small hole in the bottom. This is so you don't inadvertently create a 'suction cup' effect under the model.

Sorry, I haven't lined those axles up very well have I. But I hope that's useful.

I didn't have my glasses on and was more worried about them rolling away!

Edit: one more thing. I believe the mosskito 9.1 wheels have a deeper dish to accept etched/printed spokes.

10 hours ago, peak experience said:

Are they the Mosskito ones? 

Yes, those ones.

Here's a comparison of sorts...

The WHLP80 are also from the Light Railway Stores... I forgot I had those :')

I've sent a  message to admin...

1 hour ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Hope I'm not attempting to tell you how to suck eggs....apologies if I am....but I did not know until some one showed me!

No problem... it's useful to see what your screen looks like. I can see the problem now, I have no envelope next to my bell.

I don't think my forum account has any kind of mail functionality, and I don't see a way to turn it on.

3 hours ago, bradfordbuffer said:

rm message me as still unable to send via rm message

I can't seem to send messages either... I can't even see the option to send one. Nor can I find any settings regarding direct messages either - so I'm stumped there.

2 hours ago, bradfordbuffer said:

+100 quid for 2nd hand ... 

That's the one!

Thanks for the suggestion, I only really mentioned it because I knew it would come up at some point. Not that I would say no to a copy, but I have all the BR diagrams, and there are quite a few exterior images around (now that I'm getting slightly better at identifying them) so I think I'll get away without it. If I were really stuck, a trip out to a surviving mk2a would be better value... Might be a different story if I were working in a larger scale, or thinking about the interior.

That said, in a very direct way, you and other people are already contributing to my 'research' when you buy my .stl files off cults. Cults totally paid to get the 313 running. There's currently enough in the kitty for the book... but I still need waterslide decals made up for the 313, not to mention a load of plywood and some track at some point, and my printer died last month so that's pushed everything down the list. This month's a bit quiet but it usually brings in around £70 a month, which, LCD screens aside, usually keeps the project ticking over.

Thanks! Those are cracking photos, really useful!

Initially, I was intending to skip over b & c, but it turns out as I'm becoming aware of these differences I might as well try and fill in the gaps, even if I don't use them myself.

That book on mk2 coaches would also be really useful, but it's too expensive for me.

7 hours ago, bradfordbuffer said:

I'm shaking my bottles of resin as I speak!...

This is going to take a while, so don't be too vigorous or you'll get cramp!

I haven't touched a vertex since posting that image... I've been looking at photo's of the gutters all evening, and other minutia, instead. Mostly the gutting though! As far as I can tell, from mk2b onwards the roof has a wrap around guttering, and the 2a doesn't. To make matter worse I found an image of a 55 pulling out of Doncaster with a rake comprised entirely of mk1 coaches in 1980. I'm already modelling the mk1 RB and BG, so I should probably do those coaches too. I can see this getting out of control...

Accuracscale have good images of the underneath of their 2b and 2c models... but I expect they will differ a bit from the 2a and 2d I'm doing. I know some of the aircon stuff goes down there.