Geordie Exile

I'm currently in the North East and have taken a couple of hours to walk the wagonways leading from Fenwick Pit. The exchange sidings have mostly disappeared under modern roads and housing. This is line from the colliery and shows what I'm wrestling with in terms of baseboard design.

We tend to start on something flat, and build scenery up, but this line 'floats' on an embankment almost all the way from the colliery to the sidings with most of the landscape ten or fifteen feet below it. I want to somehow replicate this, with the trackbed on a skeletal 'baseboard' sitting above the actual baseboard.  But of course this presents challenges such as running wire-in-tube, and TOUs underneath the turnouts but above the baseboard, and all the access issues that raises.  

I'm looking forward to Derby which no doubt will give me lots of pointers.

@Curlew Thanks Simon - that's incredibly useful. I've trawled through Sassaby's albums on Flickr and somehow hadn't spotted that one (although my focus was on Fenwick Pit itself at the time).  Don't think I'd found the North Tyneside Steam Railway album, so there's another great source.

That square crossing is going to be fun replicating!

Richard

I love the internet.  (Well, some bits of it.)  I've been staring at the OS map trying to figure out how Fenwick pit connected to the Backworth system, the North-South running Blyth & Tyne, and the North Tyne Loop of the NER that served - and continues to serve - North Tyneside.  And I stumbled across this:

I've rotated it 90 degrees and shown it alongside the nearest OS map to the same time that I can find.  I'm trying to work out why the Church Colliery lines are shown as dashed: were they lifted at the time the map was drawn?  They're almost certainly what became the exchange sidings for the Backworth System and show as "Mineral Railway" on the east of OS Map.  I'm similarly confused by the solid lines which appear to have two catch points, then become dashed.  I can't see them on the OS Map, and I'm not aware of anything more than two roads heading North-South at Earsdon Junction. 

The OS Map is labelled as "NZ37SW - A, Surveyed / Revised: 1953 to 1964, Published: 1966", so the dates of the two are remarkably close.

Any thoughts from folk who understand all this?  Either way, this is quite a leap forward in producing a track plan for me.

11 minutes ago, nick_bastable said:

No need to remove the bogie just the frame

I found the only way to pop the frame was from above.  I'm now wondering whether I could have done that from below...

For anyone wondering how difficult it is to re-wheel a 108: absolute piece of cake. The most difficult part was having the courage to wrench the motor bogie out of the chassis. It takes a damn good tug.

If you're doing it for the first time, a couple of thoughts:

- Watch the delicate parts. Today's models have a lot more detail than when I was playing with N Gauge in the early eighties*.

- You'll need to bend out the electrical pickups before putting in the replacement wheelsets. They can be gently squeezed behind the wheels as you click the wheels in.

- Test each pair of wheels for electrical contact.

*Yeah, I need to glue a bit back on. Ho hum.

And I am still modelling.  I'm now the proud owner of a re-wheeled Class 24, and two Class 108 DMUs.  The first 108 was dutifully run in for an hour each way.  A couple of days ago, I popped it on the track and it made an unpleasant crunching sound, and one of the teeth has disappeared from a driving wheel.  Fortunately the Association replacements are already ordered, and they're made of sterner stuff.

I've spent the last two months in the loft, adding 100mm of insulation to every surface!  Another couple of weeks, and it might be ready to be considered my train room.

And I know I was warned against covering the hatch, but this is temporary, and the chances of me having a medical emergency and collapsing on the boarding are FAR outweighed by the chance of me stepping back to admire my work and seriously delaying any more!  I'll build a guard rail eventually.  Honest.

16 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

I used Mains Copper wiring for my Power BUS 24 x 10 roundy roundy with some 4 track parts and a set of 7 storage sidings. One NCE supply with no booster and it can handle two running Loco's and a few others sat in various places. I  use a DC BUS for my Point Motor Power but they are all linked to the Track as are Two 6 inlet Frog Juicers.

No issues with power drop.

Phil

14 hours ago, Donw said:

Voltage drop per amp per metre

 

1 sq mm   44mV

1.5 sqmm 29mV

2.5 sq mm 18mv

 

with a feed in the middle you would have no more than 5metres from the source  so at 1A 1.5mm cable 145mV however  a 2mm loco is more likely to be drawing 0.25A   so even if two locos running the draw would only be 0.5A

 

So i would suggest a voltage drop of say 75mV out of 12v would be negligeable . In fact the voltage may be less that that most of the time so say the loco is running on 7.5 volts ambling along 75mV  is a 1% drop between the middle where it gets full power and the extremes where it gets the 1% drop. Would you notice a 1% drop in speed?

 

Don

 

12 hours ago, bécasse said:

You already have convincing replies on the voltage drop (or, more realistically, effective lack of resistance drop) on your proposed circular layout, but it might be worth adding one final statistic. The resistance of 1,5mm2 copper wire is all of 11,5 ohms per kilometre.

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Again, giving a voltage drop of 14 mV over 5 m at 0.25A .

Fantastic, thank you all.  I'll drop this off my list of things that concern me, and go back to worrying about turnout operation, frog juicing, track bed composition, automatic decoupling etc etc etc 😁

Richard

I'm blessed with a loft that will allow me a circular layout some 7.0m x 5.5m (ish).  The thought of a DMU trundling endlessly around a loop while I play with a specific bit of the layout pleases me no end.  However, does a loop of 25m mean that the resistance of the rails, or the 1.5mm cable I'm planning to use as a bus, will reduce the current so much that at the furthest point from the DC controller the said DMU will simply grind to a halt?  I know that DCC will give me a higher voltage, but I'm trying to avoid the expense and complexities of DCC.

Thanks @Caley Jim, @richbrummitt & @Nig H. Some proper food for thought, especially as I'd been looking for a solution at the lever end rather than the turnout end. Much appreciated.

Richard

I'd ordered a bunch of track for Fenwick Pit, so knew I had to get on with my contribution to the FCAG's layout, namely a couple of huts.  The first is a scratch-built brick hut: other members suggested that the warm glow of a stove would enhance it (it was snowing, a lot, while I was building it) so, yeah, OK.

Oof, that downpipe's a bit chunky.  Never mind.

The second is a grounded wagon, courtesy of Shop 2 (2-580) but bashed about a bit:

And my track arrived today, so it's time to get serious with actually building my own layout.  (Hmm, I think I've said that more than once...)

I'm mulling over how best to combine a lever for wire-in-tube turnout operation with a polarity switch for the frog. Before I reinvent the wheel, does such a thing already exist somewhere, or does someone have a working design they'd be willing to share?

Cheers, Richard.

1 hour ago, Caley Jim said:

Hi Richard.  My  reading of the map is that the red rectangle was the exchange sidings as they lead off the (dashed) line to East Holywell.  The ones in the blue rectangle come of the (solid black) line marked as 'Mineral railway'.  Also, there are not enough of the latter to be practicable as exchange sidings.  Loaded wagons have to be brought from the pit by the colliery loco and parked to be collected by the main line loco.  at the same time empties have to be left and collected.  This needs a number of sidings which were usually parallel.  Either that or all exchange took place at East Holywell.

 

No harm in a bit of compression.  My exchange sidings are designed around 575mm long trains (roughly 13 wagons and a van) which, along with 125mm for the loco, are the longest my cassettes can take.

 

Jim

Hi Jim

You're probably right, and I've a couple of photos which seem to confirm it.  I've also photos (early '70s) which seem to show the blue area as more populated by sidings than the (mid '60s) map shows.  Doesn't really matter, as - to quote a great modeller - "It's your model, so make it how you want it" 😁

R

Eek.  Just done some measuring (that 200m scale on the map is useful) and it turns out that the length of track I'd planned on replicating is about 2000ft which would be 4m just for the exchange sidings with a nice approach from the east and that "Y" at the west.  Think I'll be compressing that somewhat.

Well then!  I found my modelling mojo: it was buried under a long list of things to do in real life, but as most of those are outdoor jobs and it's currently -7 in our part of the Highlands, they can wait. 

I've ordered a bunch of 9mm (how appropriate!) ply and planed timber to make a start on elements of the baseboard.  I promised myself I wouldn't get too complicated for the first attempt, and this was confirmed when I blew the dust off my two-year-old test track and saw just how badly I'd laid it.  So, here's the plan for the first bit:

(probably copyright National Library of Scotland, so I'd better credit them)

The pit itself sits at the top of the map (the orange rectangle), but I'm going to start with the exchange sidings.  I'm pretty certain they sat in the blue rectangle, and weren't much more complex than is shown in the map.  However, the red rectangle gives me a set of sidings, lots of straight lines, some fairly simple pointwork, a nice headshunt and the possibility of a couple of non-descript and out-of-commission buildings , so in my version those will become the exchange sidings.  The lines originally served Church Pit ("Mine (Dis)" on the map), later the Abbey Shot Factory (which used the pit shaft as the drop rather than a shot tower) and then, well, I don't know after that.  I could have it all wrong and they actually were the exchange sidings.

It'll all be good practice, as it'll feature actual track and scenery, plus wiring, plus (semi-)automatic uncoupling.  Time for a shopping list...

2 hours ago, tom s said:

The top of the assembly is angled so just pulling it down by the sideframes will unclip it from the chassis, and nothing is hardwired between the two

Thanks, Tom. I guess the design has changed since (my version of) Getting Started was published. I'll give that approach a go.

Update: @tom s It worked! It took quite a terrifying amount of tugging to remove the bogies, but I've got my first 2mmFS loco going backwards and forwards on my (appallingly laid) test track. Thank you! R.

Hi All

I'm making my first attempt to re-wheel a loco, having bought a brand new Farish Class 24.  The instructions in the Association's "Getting Started..." handbook are pretty clear, but I've fallen at the first hurdle.  I think I've found the clip on the cosmetic bogie frame, but no amount of pressure and twisting seems to be budging it.  

As you can see, I'm already starting to chew this up.  I'm pressing it in the direction of the red arrow, while trying to lift in the direction of the blue arrow.  Before I mess it up completely, has anyone done this recently, and advise on what I should actually be doing?

Cheers, Richard.

13 hours ago, Trewisin said:

Hi Richard firstly I hope you had a reasoable Christmas and you are now looking forward to (Hogmany)  the New Year

Time has flown i take it that you are still in the land of hibernation as to regards  modelling.

Look forward to hearind from you soon, best regards.Ray

Hi Ray

Thanks for the good wishes.  I've just blown the dust off my RMWeb login for the first time in months, and here's a lovely greeting from yourself 🙂.  Given the enforced idleness that the Highland weather has brought, I thought I'd dip in and make an appeal for a J94 chassis which might reignite my modelling.  Hope you're well.

Richard

I don't suppose anybody's got a spare J94 chassis conversion kit they don't want?  I'm willing to pay real actual money for it.  It's been TOS from Shop 3 for forever, and I've bought all the other stuff I need.  I can't really progress my doesn't-exist-yet layout without a working loco to test turnouts etc, and my modelling mojo is withering as a result.

OK, shopping list revised.  I've dropped the quartering tool and will go with the quartering by hand/eye/coupling rod approach.  I'm back to the recommended crankpin options, and I've doubled the number of axle steels (three and a bit to check/keep the whole thing aligned once it's out of the jig, and a bit for the lay shaft that I'd forgotten about).

I know if I'd wanted 'easy' railway modelling I'd have stuck with n-gauge, but we don't half make this complicated for ourselves.  Is it time for a "you will also need..." list on the Association website that ties in with the various chassis etches?

All I need now is for the J94 chassis to come back into stock...

Thanks as ever to the giants on whose shoulders I'm trying to stand!

Thanks, gentlemen. 

16 hours ago, Klaus ojo said:

You are aware that the etch 3-640 is including a jig for the assembly of the chassis? Not the kind of the 3-270 but useful.

Take 3 of the axles  (if you don´t already have): The loco has 3 axles and the etched jig has holes for 3 as well. ;-)  Having one surplus is ot wrong.

 

I've been watching @Nick Mitchell's fab video's on the Association website, and the 3-270 jigs seemed a useful addition once the chassis no longer fits in the etched jig.  The axles should help check alignment (a la Nick's video) rather than form any part of the model.  (At least, that's what I had thought: wheel + muff + wheel should do, shouldn't it?)

18 hours ago, Izzy said:

Seriously I'd use 3-126  0.5mm crankpins with 3-129 0.6mm washers on the front with Mk5's.

15 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

Use the parts designed for the wheels,

Using the bits I'm supposed to use is definitely my preference - I'd rather end up doing as little botching as I can get away with.

Revised shopping list to follow...

OK, who doesn't love a spreadsheet?  Thanks to the good folk of RMWeb, I think I have a shopping list...

If this generates a whole load of "you don't need x" and "you forgot y" then I'll amend it and put it back up.

Richard

Thank you all so far.  I'll take a bit of time today consolidating this!  (Although with the actual chassis being TOS, I guess I've got more time than that...)

Hi All

I've searched the forum and to my surprise can't find a thread already asking these questions.  If it's just me looking but not seeing, please point me in the right direction.  If it's not all in one place, I thought a thread might be useful to other conversion beginners like me.

I've found the list of things I'll need on the Association website, but have ended up with more questions than answers.  I'll go through the "Required Parts List" (found here) item-by-item with my questions/comments, and would really appreciate your help.

Required Parts List

Chassis etch

• 3-640 (Farish Austerity/LNER J94: Etched N/S)
• Currently TOS from Shop 3 😒

Motor

• 3-241 (12V Coreless: 6 x 15mm: 0.8mm shaft)

Association frame spacer PCB

• 3-156 (Frame Spacer: 150mm long x 6.4mm wide x 1.6mm: PCB)
• or???
• 3-157 (Frame Spacer: 150mm long x 7.0mm wide x 1.6mm: PCB)
• For future reference, how will I know?

Loco wheels (see table below)

• 3-006 (Mk5: 8.5mm)

6 x crankpins

• 3-125 (Flanged: 0.5mm dia: 0.75mm Base for Mk6 and later Wheels: Turned Brass)
• or???
• 3-126 (Long: 0.5mm dia: Turned Brass)
• I assume it's the latter, as the only 8.5mm wheels I can find are Mk5, which - obviously? - predates "Mk6 and later"

Crankpin washers

• 3-127 (0.6mm Bore: Etched N/S)

30:1 worm set with 1.5mm bore worm.

• Is this 3-352 (Gearbox Block: 100DP 30:1: Machined Brass)? If so, the instructions PDF (here) for this refers to additional parts which I guess covers the "1.5mm bore worm" and the next two items (gear and axle muffs).
• 3-361 (Worm: 100DP: 1.5mm Bore: Acetal)

Gear muffs

• 3-101 (Muff: 1/8" OD: Imperial Gears: Acetal)

Axle muffs

• 3-100 (Muff: 1/8" OD: Ungeared Wheels: Acetal)

Spur gears as appropriate (see the arrangement diagram for the specific loco)

• Where do I find this diagram?  Is it an Association thing? 

0.3mm brass or nickel silver rod

• I'd have headed straight to Eileen's Emporium for this, but I understand we've lost this wonderful asset.  Any favourite alternatives (in terms of supplier or indeed material)?

The Milled Gearbox Block instructions refer to a "30T 100DP Skew Gear".  Is this 3-367 (Skew Cut Gear: 100DP: 30T: 1/8" Bore: Brass). Should it be included in the Required Parts List?

I'd very much appreciate any pointers.  If we end up with lots of separate answers, that's fine: I'll combine them all into a final post and who knows, another newbie like me might stumble upon it.  I've even included "Farish", "J94" and "Austerity" in the thread title to make it nicely searchable 😁

Richard

It was good to catch up with FCAG stalwarts (and hobnob with the Chairman himself) at Perth Model Railway Show a couple of weeks back.  Bits of Fenwick Pit were dusted off and were seen lurking on the 2mmSA stand.  Not just dusted, actually.  Soon after filling a couple of the wagons with faux-coal using a water-based glue, they got boxed up for a couple of years.  On re-opening the box, something with tendrils (and possibly sentience) had grown out them.  Took a bit of cleaning off, and I swear I heard it complain as I did.

A particularly pleasing moment was coupling up the steel hopper in the foreground (a Bob Jones etch) with one of James Batchelor's wagons, and seeing the DGs actually work, including uncoupling. First time they'd been over a magnet, and it was very gratifying.  I'd been havering about sticking with DGs having seen Electras in action at the FCAG mini-meet a couple of months ago, but I'm happy to use the DGs now I know mine actually do what they're supposed to do.

And it's time to bite the bullet, and start to build an actual locomotive chassis.  I've had the lack of a working loco nagging at me since the nascent Fenwick Pit went into boxes two years ago.  I'm sure there's a thread in this forum that'll tell me where to start. Probably...