mark54

1 hour ago, MJI said:

There are a few piccies on web search for E1106

 

Some interior photos in the Mark 1 book by Keith Parkin as well, the big one.

 

Well worth buying BTW.

 

Not sure if this is allowed but I found these

Some interior shots of Booth Car 1106 (& Lounge Buffet 1883) in this Pathe Newsreel. Note that the height of the booth walls is greater than in MJI's photos. Another modification carried out c1971 due to adverse comments from the public. The table lamps went as well.

www.britishpathe.com/asset/88824/

9 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The new cars didn't enter service 'en bloc' judging from photographs taken at the time. If I were to guess based on the new car's transition in roof shade from whitish to solidly grey, the new cars went into service in pairs, gradually displacing the K type cars until only the end of formation K type brakes were left. What I don't know is over how long a time period this happened.

There is a photo taken at Greenwood of an empty stock train headed by a V2 on the Up Slow. I don't have copyright so won't post here. Behind the V2 are 7 brand new Mk1 Pullmans with white roofs - 3 Kitchen Firsts, 1 Parlour First, 1 Kitchen Second and 2 Parlour Seconds, With 2 1928 Brake Seconds, this would exactly allow the makeup of the London based set of the 1961 Queen of Scots.

Substitutions by 1928 Pullmans were very common in the early to mid-60s. Besides the 12 Brake Seconds that worked with the 44 Mk1 cars, there were also 4 Kitchen Firsts, 1 Parlour First and 1 Parlour Second which were retained as spares for ECML Pullman services.

There are some interior colour footage of a diag 30 Griddle Car in this 1961 Pathe out-takes reel at 1.46.

www.britishpathe.com/asset/36346/

The summer 1962 SR Appendix has the following Pullman Cars allocated to the Golden Arrow and annotated as fitted with Electric Heating:

Aquila

Aries

Carina

Cygnus

Hercules

Isle of Thanet

Minerva

Orion

Pegasus

Perseus

Phoenix

34

36

208

That gives a total of 14. In addition Bulleid FK 7642 & 7643 are also annotated as allocated to the GA but doesn't indicate whether EH.

The Sept 1964 SR Victoria Platform and Carriage Working Programme (available on Robert Carroll’s Coaching Stock Group) show the up train only had the 2FK included in the formation, annotated dates - up to Sept 25th and from 31st May 1965.  They were not in the down train. Formation of the up train is shown as:

PMV

Pullman 2nd Brake

Pullman 2nd Car

Pullman 1st Car

3 Pullman 1st Cars

Pullman 1st Brake

2 FK

PMV

(NB – Kitchen cars are not identified. The Brake Cars were Guard Brake Parlours)

However, the summer 1965 SR Appendix to Carriage Working Notice shows that second class Pullmans had been withdrawn from the Golden Arrow and replaced by Mk1 stock. The following vehicles were allocated some of which would have been spares:

Aquila (K)

Carina (K)

Isle of Thanet (G)

Minerva (G)

Orion (K)

Phoenix (P)

SK 25946

SK 25948

SK 25953

TSO 4903

TSO 4916

BSK 34939

So it doesn’t look like the Mk2 FK lasted very long in the formation. Prior to the Mk2’s, the summer 1964 Appendix to Carriage Working Notice had Bulleid FK 7642 & 7643 allocated to the GA.

On 14/03/2023 at 22:31, 45125 said:

The Hull Pullman when it became separate to the Yorkshire Pullman only got the two additional vehicles from the White Rose a PFK and a PSP. And as the vehicles would often change with works visits the vehicles could have been in any of the Pullmans with the exception of car 354.

 

 

Al Taylor

To make clear, as I didn't word it well, that the withdrawal of the White Rose gave sufficient cars to run a separate Hull Pullman (and an expanded Bradford portion in the Yorkshire Pullman). The Hull Pullman ran as an all Pullman service from May 1967 to October 1968.

Full Brakes began to be rostered (with an extra Mk1 2nd) in 1965 at the north end, with a parlour brake retained at the south end. By 1966 these too were replaced by a Mk1 2nd. The BG was then at the south end for the Tees-Tyne & Master Cutler, middle for the Yorshire, but the White Rose had a BG at both ends.

When 2nd class started to be withdrawn, initially in Oct 1968, the Master Cutler was withdrawn completely and the Hull Pullman (with the cars from the White Rose) had a BG at the south end but by late1969/early 1970 had switched to a Mk1 BSO at the north end. The Tees-Tyne and Yorkshire retained a BG at the south end when 2nd class was withdrawn in May 1969 and May 1971 respectively.

The departmental coach looks like a BCK (with 2 first class and 2 second class compartments), and the end second class compartment and toilet compartment have been modified to the arrangement seen.

On 04/01/2023 at 20:13, Nimbus said:

There were old gravel pits off the Hertford branch too, at Holwell where the A414 crossed on a humpback bridge. I once noticed an open wagon stood in a siding as we passed. My impression was that it was longer than a 16-tonner, so may have been a Sulphate.

 

According to the Hatfield to Hertford book by Peter Paye, Luton Refuse went to the tip at Holwell. This would have to have gone via Hatfield as there was no connection between the Dunstable branch and the main line at Welwyn Garden City. This traffic ceased in 1966.

There is a photo of an N7 leaving Welwyn Garden City along the branch in 1960 with a rubbish train on the Cole Green Way photo gallery site:

www.hertsmemories.org.uk/content/herts-history/topics/transport/railways/lostrails/cole-green-way-photo-gallery

Besides the Asburton Grove traffic, there was also a refuse train from Kings Cross Goods to Blackbridge Sidings. Possibly Camden refuse?

BR did experiment with pre-prepared and pre-cooked frozen food in the mid 1950’s using “Frood” which was a trading name of Lyons Frozen Foods. The idea was that as much preparation as possible was done prior to loading so that the on-board kitchen could be compact and meals could be prepared quickly. Cafeteria Car Type C M675E (CAF) was the prototype. All the Restaurant-Cafeteria Cars (RCAF) were so fitted. The frozen food was loaded into the Cars in trolleys. The Sept 1954 Trains Illustrated article called “British Railways new Cafeteria-Restaurant Cars” describes food available on a St Pancras to Bedford demonstration run in July.

2 hours ago, uax6 said:

One of these vehicles appears in the BTF film 'Cyclist's Special'. It shows a clip of some passengers sat at a table, which I presume is in the conversion as it has melamine table tops. Its a good watch anyway!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPkT0paGEnQ

 

Andy G

 

Edit: I'm sure there was an outside image of the car, but it doesn't appear so, but there's lots of shots of the inside... Now what film showed the outside of one?

 

From the windows, seating layout and longitudinal cafeteria, the car featured can be identified as an ex-GE RF conversion to Cafeteria Car Type C. This was a dual-purpose vehicle – for service and excursion trains - with 32 tip-up seats (in 4 bays 2+2 across) at one end and a kitchen at other end which could serve full meals to an adjacent saloon coach.

The initial allocation and introduction dates of the conversions were:

SC670E 8/8/53

SC671E 13/6/53

SC672E 8/8/53

SC673E 13/6/53

E674E 13/6/53

M675E 13/6/53

I don’t have any withdrawal dates.

1 hour ago, keefer said:

I take it you mean pic. no.21?:

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/interior/h23c8ce69

@hmrspaul  It certainly isn't a cl.119 Buffet - that would be more like pic.19 (as would a cl.120), or pic.18 after conversion to a Luggage Space while on the Redhill-Reading-Gatwick services.

Thanks Keefer. Yes correct. It is the distinctive windows that identify it. If you look through the counter, you can see to the other end of the car which was a mirror image of what can be seen.

These 6 cars were Cafeteria Type B and were designed for excursion trains, serving cold food and hot and cold drinks. They were double ended with a small central kitchen flanked by 2 transverse counters. At each end was a central scalloped table with 11 stools. Passengers would take a tray and select food items from the display cases. The attendants would serve drinks and take payment.

An interior shot can be found in Paul Bartletts's site:

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/interior

The initial allocation and introduction dates of the conversions were:

M30001M 11/7/53

M30003M 11/7/53

M30006M 5/9/53

E30007M 5/9/53

W30017M 5/9/53

SC30018M 5/9/53

At some point 30007 was transferred to the LMR. I don’t know if there were any other transfers.

Withdrawal was I believe from 1962 to 1965.

The 13th coach leaving Kings Cross was an RU for dinner service, marshalled at the front of the train and detached at York. This would have been transferred from the back of the 15:30 Leeds on arrival at Kings Cross.

The ECML Carriage Working Notices always have the seating capacity as 62 for a TSO on trains with air-conditioned stock. Likewise always 31 for a BSO. The total 2nd class for the Hull Pullman at this time is shown as 307 seats (which includes 28 seats in the RMB). I assume if an Mk2f TSO or BSO was included in the formation, the extra 2 or 1 seat respectively, would not have been reservable.

The final Hull Pullman was noted by Simon Lee with 55014 for the up and 47410 for the down working. On the up working, the extra TSO was for a party booking:

E317E PFK

E328E PFP

E313E PFK

E1986 RU

E1671 RBR

E5731 TSO 2d

E6158 TSO 2f

E5908 TSO 2f

E5724 TSO 2d

E9510 BSO 2f

E5916 TSO 2f

It is interesting to note the substitution of an RBR for the usual RMB. I suspect this is in anticipation of the train become the Hull Executive the following Monday  when the formation according to the May 1978 ECML Carriage Working Notice was BG 2FO RU RBR 6TSO.

Here are 2 actual formations of the Hull Pullman set as noted by Peter Mallaband:

From June 1975 at Kings Cross

E320E PFK

E330E PFP

E319E PFK

E1968 RU

E1874 RMB

E6151 TSO 2f

E5922 TSO 2f

E5624 TSO 2d

E5938 TSO 2f

E9490 BSO 2d

On Saturday 3rd Sept 1977 at Craigentinny on a weekend special working for the Edinburgh Festival. Note there are 2 extra TSO for the special.

E318E PFK

E327E PFP

E313E PFK

E1986 RU

E1879 RMB

E5917 TSO 2f

E5627 TSO 2d

E5707 TSO 2d

E6151 TSO 2f

E9493 BSO 2d

E5660 TSO 2d

E5671 TSO 2d

I doubt in maroon. They would most likely been on the East Coast Mainline and as front line stock would have been given blue/grey livery pretty quickly. I would think from 1971 some were transferred to work on East Anglian services. Ditto for Mk1 Parlour Seconds.

11 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

There is no doubt that it is NOT the prototype.

The other give away that it is not the prototype is the roof vents. The protype had a double line and the production batch had a single offset line. The prototype also didn’t have externally fitted windows. The fitting looks similar to the final batch of Mk1 FK with a seal round the main body-light.

Other interesting points from the original photo are that the Pullman (I believe E351E) has it’s grey panel extended over the doors while all the other Parlour Seconds had blue doors. Also the Mk2 FK has a non-standard grey panel that doesn’t align with Pullman’s. It is right up under the windows, rather like Bachmann’s original incorrect rendition of the Mk2/Mk2a livery, corrected on their later batches.

There is a photo of the sorting side of M30204M (Diag 1908) on page 88 of An Illustrated History of the Travelling Post Office by Peter Johnson. 

The 6 H30/H31/H32 Triplet dining sets were built in 1925 and, as you say, were separated and lengthened in 1936.

The H31 Kitchen Cars became Diagram H49 9657-9662. In 1955 they were further converted to Cafeteria Cars. I have never heard of a diagram number for the Cafeteria Cars.

4 of the H30 First Class Dining Cars became Diagram 50 9645-9648

4 of the H32 Third Class Dining Cars became Diagram 51 9649-9652

2 each of H30 & H32 became Diagram H52 Dining Cars 9653-9656. These had a Third Class layout, but 1 seating bay less and the addition of a toilet and cupboard.

10 minutes ago, turbos said:

No 5401 on the left is a Mk2a, the door is a big give away and also Mk2b are in the number range 5434 - 5497.

 

I guess Mk2b weren’t quite as rare in Scotland in the late 1980s, which was also around the time when I had the usual teenage loss of interest in railways, not helped by ‘Sprinterisation’ either.

Brian.

 

Am I missing something here? There are no Mk2b's in this photo. The BSO is a Mk2c (there being no Mk2b BSO's)

20 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Mike Trice as been very kind and sent me some drawings that show the original kitchen side. I think all I need now is a photo in either crimson and cream or maroon livery of E9195E before rebuilding and E9196E to see if the lettering was just BUFFET or RESTAURANT or BUFFET CAR or RESTAURANT CAR or RESTAURANT BUFFET or RESTAURANT BUFFET CAR.

 

According to the "British Railways Lettering and Numbering of Coaching Stock" they were labelled BUFFET RESTAURANT CAR. David Faulkner's PDF states you were the source of the original document.

The formation of the 1968 non-stop was:

BSK (CW)

FO (CW)

FO (BR1)

RK (B5)

TSO (BR1)

TSO (CW)

RMB (CW)

It appears to be ER stock except the Kitchen Car must be an LMR one as the ER didn't have any with B5 bogies. The FO with CW bogies is one of the 1956 batch E3076-80 with trial bogies.

Phil, the other thing you should be aware of is that The Hadrian Bar was converted from a Third Class car whereas the Hornby car is a model of a first class car conversion, therefore there are differences in the window layout. Also internally the toilet is on the side, there is no coupe and it has 2+1 seating. Robert Carroll's photo shows the corridor side in green livery.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/28912968487/in/album-72157603653607671/