Stoat's Nest

Five79 Chivers Finelines has recently started producing this ancient (1982 vintage) white metal kit again. It doesn't have any cab interior details or even a cab floor. Is there a suitable casting of a a boiler back plate/firebox door in 4mm that could fit the kit?

I don't know the dimensions it has to match yet since I'm still debating whether to buy one. There'll be loads of other modifications needed to bring the 35 + year old kit up to standard, such as replacement buffer beams and turned brass buffers, a turned 

brass handbrake column in the cab. At least the kit has etched brass or nickel silver chassis components and brake gear. A Highlevel gearbox e.g. a Load hauler will be fitted. If a DCC chip is fitted there's the choice of gear ratio to consider: would a higher ratio make the

loco's slow running characteristics much better: the D3's were used for passenger work with a continuous stop and start running envelope between stations. Both the original 1890's version and later rebuilds are catered for. My experience with Wills white metal kits

was that the moulds were susceptible to distortion, especially the footplates, so weren't orthogonal (square); a Wills I3 4-4-2 tank drove me up the wall and I vowed never to touch another white metal loco kit.

D bogie No. 365 "Victoria" of the 1892 batch

The kit itself in rebuilt form after Marsh era or later SR rebuilds in BR livery

I was having a look at High Level Kit's 1219C  coreless motor on HL's website and noticed this statement : "HLPower, Coreless motors embrace the latest available technology, delivering massive torque with incredible smoothness. Although they're not compatible with certain models of feedback controller". It's a bit vaguely worded but I presume this means things like BackEMF(DCC). Does this affect the Lenz LZV200 and LH101 hand controller? Has anyone had any experience with this combination?

On 23/01/2015 at 11:17, simon0r said:

 this 1908 map of the lines out of London Bridge shows the SECR and LBSCR running alongside each other. 

 

 

source: Wikipedia http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bricklayers_Arms_%26_New_Cross,_Midhurst_RJD_91.jpg

Quote

 

A Billinton B4 heading an early Brighton Pullman train in what is probably the Bronze green/ red oxide roof and ornate gilded livery with open verandah Pullman cars. It has 7 full length cars and a Pup at the front. The head code on the buffer beam indicates its route is via the Quarry Line, opened in 1900.  I thought at first it was the Southern Belle, having 7 cars, but the Southern Belle began in November 1908  and its livery was Cream and Umber with white roofs and ran on 6 wheel bogies.  A B4 was unlikely to still be in Stroudley IEG that late.  My Inspector Clouseau side came to the conclusion that the photo must have been taken sometime between summer 1900 and late summer 1908 somewhere between Norbury and Haywards Heath.  Can anyone hazard guess at the name of this pre 1908 service and whether it ran from Victoria or London Bridge.

 

 Ex-NLR 28'  4-wheelers sold to the LBSCR - Conclusion

As a result of all the replies, full of considerable erudition on this topic and other information less germaine to the matter, can I now safely assume that the LRM website assertion that:

"These coaches were built ........  A substantial number of all types were sold out of service to companies as diverse as the ....... LBSCR ........etc. ", can be regarded as so much advertising hype or, in old fashioned terms, a total red herring?

I have a question about ex North London Railway carriages sold to other companies, in particular to the LBSCR. According to London Road Models, that make three of these 28 foot long 4 wheelers, some were sold to the Brighton, but  they give no indication of the dates these transactions occured. I'm interested in the late Victorian/Edwardian period, between 1890 and 1910. I've never seen any photos of ex NLR carriage stock running on Brighton metals, so this comes as a mini revelation. I believe the NLR, which had running powers over a considerable mileage of other railways' routes, could have connected to South London routes via the LNWR from just west of Chalk Farm, then to Willesden Jnc and then south via Addison Road to the West London Extension line, but I'm not aware of any services related to these, if they existed. But what did the Brighton do with such vehicles, if they did indeed buy them?  To give you an idea of the type of carriages I'm talking about I've attached a photo of three NLR stock which had been sold and were operating in East Anglia, presumably to the Great Eastern. No date is given for the photo other than when the locomotive was purchased(1903).   Anyone know about NLR stock sold to the Brighton?  

Sorry about the absent photo but it's taking forever to upload and preventing me from posting this question. There's a photo on RmWeb - Castle Aching - Page 206 - Pre-Grouping - Modelling and Prototyping,  but it's all related to the M&GN railway or the IWR, unless London Road Models are confusing the IWR with the LB&SCR, there's no mention of any Brighton purchases.

On 17/12/2019 at 15:08, phil_sutters said:

and Plumpton

"The GER also ran to Croydon BTW, and was Tottenham really served by the LBSC?" 

The dreaded predictive text algorithm was at work again: woe to those who don't watch what they type with hawk like diligence. I intended to write Tattenham, which the algorithm has never heard of and ended up in Crewe, not Tottenham. "Oh, mr Porter, whatever shall I do?"  etc.

I've not found any photographic evidence of the GER at Croydon (New Croydon station on the 1898 six inch map) but there is a rather grainy photo of the entrance to the Fairfield yard (LBSCR) which Klaus Marx says closed in 1890 with a LNWR 2-4-2T tank and carriages returning north from the yard. On the 1914 map the yard it's still there with at least 6 buildings and more lines to serve them (see map).

New Croydon station 1898 and Fairfield (Goods) yard.

On 17/12/2019 at 15:08, phil_sutters said:

and Plumpton

"The GER also ran to Croydon BTW, and was Tottenham really served by the LBSC?" 

The dreaded predictive text algorithm was at work again: woe to those who don't watch what they type with hawk like diligence. I intended to write Tattenham, which the algorithm has never heard of and ended up in Crewe, not Tottenham. "Oh, mr Porter, whatever shall I do?"  etc.

I've looked at the SERkits site and though mainly 7mm, he offers scaled down etches only, of some of his kits and drawings in 3.5mm and 4mm.  Unlike some etched brass kits from other makers, SERkits  offerings seem to be a bit of a scavenger hunt requiring not just the usual wheel set, axles, motor, gears and pickups etc. but loads of bits of lost wax parts available, that might  be in stock, from a wide variety of different suppliers and which need modifying to be in scale with the rest of the model. The site itself doesn't seem to have been updated since 2017 so, I'll need to contact him about the state of play with projected 4mm projects.

thanks

Has anyone modelled the South Eastern Railway? It merged with the London Chatham & Dover Railway in 1899 to form the SE&CR. The shade of loco green is a problem since Precision paints appear to have never heard of the SER and they never put colour representations of many of these colours on their website anyway and Railmatch aren't helpful either. As a watercolour artist, I would describe the shade of green as Deep Cupric green or Brominated Pthalocyanine, which will have lots of you scratching your heads. It's a sort of bluish green and is also called Holly Green, but holly bushes can vary an awful lot in the greens they display, especially the ones with variegated leaves.  The valencing on the outside frames is painted a muddy sort of crimson; also no match in Precision or Railmatch, so I think it'll be a case of getting the pipettes out and then a bit of trial and error mixing. SER loco lining was black flanked by two white lines: some firm must produce these transfers in 4mm.

I'm toying with the idea of an area somewhere between Croydon and Redhill where the SER and the Brighton waged war over running rights until the latter opened the Quarry line c. 1900.  A bit further north  near the East Croydon/Fairfield area and the LNWR appears: suburban services via the West London Extension Line to Croydon.  Horse racing events, very popular from the middle of the 19th century, were catered for by the Brighton, at Epsom, Tattenham and Plumpton. Below is a rake of Horseboxes being towed by a Webb Coal tank through Clapham Junction, on the way to one of these race meetings. 

A Webb Coal tank hauling a rake of mixed horseboxes southward through Clapham Junction to race meetings in the south.

SER loco green livery and lining and the frame colour.

On 29/10/2019 at 07:28, Lacathedrale said:

"or the LNWR would deposit coaches at Clapham Junction"

There is a photo Klaus Marx's book   An LB&SCR Album looking south from East Croydon station c.1900 showing LNWR Webb 2-4-2T with a rake of carriages waiting to return from where the  Croydon Town hall was later built. The caption mentions regular GER services, but fails to say which company's locos hauled them. The photo was taken on a misty day probably in late autumn or winter at distance so details are very indistinct.

On 19/10/2019 at 08:25, Oldddudders said:

It's certainly Ouistreham today - Sherry sailed from there on Thursday afternoon! But I wonder whether when boats were smaller they were able to navigate closer to Caen. 

 

Incidentally the LBSCR map is wonderfully fanciful, since the line to Littlehampton appears to miss Epsom altogether, and Reigate is marked where Dorking is. 

"wonderfully fanciful" : It also puts Marseille just north of the Isle de France, east of Rouen.

20 hours ago, ianmaccormac said:

These are considered to be the 'large' Goods Grand Vitesse vans. No diagram number. Mentioned and illustrated in both LB&SCR Carriages vol 2 and Mike King Southern Wagons Pictorial. If 4mm, 5&9 models produce a kit.

Cheers, Ian

"If 4mm, 5&9 models produce a kit".  

Having looked at the 5 & 9 website it shows a 4 wheel carriage truck and, I quote the description from the page : (Covered Carriage Truck Please Note: This kit is discontinued. High roofed vehicle for conveying horse-drawn carriages.)

The 5 & 9 vehicle in question (seen below) has a tumblehome and the curvature of the roof, although a high pitched arc,  is not a simple curve, but curves steeply near the edge of the roof where it joins the carriage sides like a "balloon' coach profile. Compare this with the two photos on my original post where the carriages have straight sides, (no tumblehome) meeting the solebar.  The sides of both vehicles in the Newhaven photo plainly have horizontal planking and vertical metal strapping as in the HMRS photo seen above.

Thanks Ian. In the HMRS photos section there is a photo of an early Grande Vitesse* van (see photo below) but, because of the quality of the photo the top of the roof seems to blend into the sky quite effectively, so it's hard to make out the pitch of the roof. If your'e right, it answers another question that's been lurking in the back of my mind, which was, how many Grande Vitesse vans would be included when making up a boat train. In the E.J. Bedford book there is a photo of a Stroudley D2 0-4-2  "Paris" that mentions the "Petite Vitesse" thrice weekly service from Caen (Newhaven to London - Victoria or London Bridge?). Can it be assumed the same vans were used for these perishable goods(Seasonal fruit).

The photo at Newhaven above appears to show a single window in the central section which doesn't appear in the HMRS photo so, are they the same type of vehicle?

Hard to tell from the HMRS photo, but would the van below have been in Teak finish. 

vince 

*Billinton designed a later GrV van with louvred panels 

Hi, these two photos, which show a type of unidentified 4 wheel van, date from around 1886-1889. The first, taken after the rebuilding of Lewes station in 1888/9 and the second is at Newhaven around 1886. They both appear to be of the Newhaven Boat Train. The low arc roofed van just behind the loco is probably a diag. D47/ van. Can anyone identify these high arc roofed vehicles; they are probably not carriage trucks since they are said to have no end doors. A diagram number, or even a drawing would be helpful.

vince

Here's  'Abergavenny' at Newhaven with Stroudley's speed recorder equipment installed.  It comprised a continuous belt driven by the single driving wheel that went round the pulley wheel just below the Westinghouse pump. How was it transmitted to the indicator in the cab though?. There's no date given for this photo but there is one of 'Grosvenor', with the same gear, at Lewes station dated 1888.

I looked up Hasler's device  and found nothing specific about this recorder, though there is something interesting about the earlier Stroudley device fitted to his G class singles 'Grosvenor' and  'Abergavenny'. There are photos of both locos showing the apparatus in the E.J. Bedford of Lewes Collection by John Minnis pub. by Wild Swan, 1989.

This blog has some interesting info on Stroudley:

https://blog.railwaymuseum.org.uk/loco-speedometers-and-track-destroying-trains/

Stroudley even "experimented with a Terrier (Paris Exhibition 1878) :  see the comments  at the bottom of the page above .

Returning to the subject of Bachmann's H1 Atlantic, can anyone explain the function of the appendage attached to the rear right hand driving wheel splasher? Having looked at as many photos of H1's as I can, it seems to have only been fitted to No. 39.    Is it for measuring speed?

vince

.

There seemed to be quite a bit of variation in the decoration of H1s' wheel splashers. Here's No. 38 at Brighton with the Brighton's Coat of arms on both splashers. The bogie brakes have been removed and it wears the later style painted cab number and LBSCR on the tender. It has a square housing around the Ramsbottom safety valves. Any idea of the photo's date?

• Émile Loubet was French president at the time of the visit in 1905. No 54 was named La France during the period between August 1905, possibly from slightly earlier,  allowing for the new paint job for the loco, until September 1906 when it became Princess Royal, so it sported its temporary colour scheme for about a year. Thus, the photo at Brighton station could have been taken any time from the late summer 1905 to September 1906, though it looks like a fairly sunny day judging by the lighting conditions, so probably not in winter months. The carriage just behind the loco looks like ordinary suburban stock, not part of a Royal train.

Just when I thought the La France connection was done I came across this photo to add to the mystery. A Billinton B2 (popularly known as Sirdars) or a B4 seen at Brighton station in Stroudley IEG around 1880-1905 -ish. Neither the name nor the number are on the list of B2's in Locos of the LBS&SCR 1839-1903 (Ed by  J. Christopher) so, I can't say when it entered service.  No idea when it lost its Stroudley colours to Marsh umber, or even if it was scrapped sometime after the photo was taken. Can't even be certain what its number is: If the picture is blown up really large there is only a slight hint that the brass numberplate might be No. 38. The paintwork looks in pretty good nick: look at the highly polished marks on the tender, so it may not have been in service long. The Brighton company had a habit of transferring loco numbers and putting older engines on the Duplicate List. Anyone know what the subsequent history of this loco was, what its number was, or even when the picture was taken?  Does anyone know which route the head code indicates?

Billinton B4 No. 54 'La France' at Brighton station August 1905.

vince

Thanks BlueLightning.  That clears up that theory. So now between Feb 1912 and June 1913 when President Poincare of France paid his visit, No. 39 received a new set of driving splasher logos, lost its numberplate, was given its name, had the company letters on the tender repainted and a new safety valve fitted. We're getting closer.

Thanks Richard and OldDudders, for the Ramsbottom info, now I know what to ask for.

As for the change of livery and safety valves Klaus Marx's LBSCR The Bennet Collection P.63 shows two H1's in the Brighton erecting shops stripped down and undergoing "their first major overhaul at Brighton. The date could well be 1910 .... ".  No. 39's number is visible and presumably the unidentifiable H1 behind was No.38. since it was delivered from Kitson earlier than 39 and therefore after 4 or 5 years needed servicing. Hazarding a guess,  they both had a new paint job in the latest livery version at this time, as well as revision of equipment such as safety valves

Was the H1 style of safety valve shown in both pictures patented and if so, did it have a specific name? Without this particular piece of information it would make a search in say, Alan Gibson's list or Wizard models a protracted and very tedious business.

Also, for another project I would like to locate some 4mm scale Salter safety valves (the kind fitted to all the Terrier domes). Lastly, I'm looking for a source for a flat circular plinth-like base on which sits a small single safety valve/whistle, as on some early Billinton E series tanks and Stroudley's 'West Brighton' tank.  Actually it's been sitting under my nose all the time: EB models has a page on the E3 radial and they make a model of it complete with Salter safety valves and that single whistle sitting on its little plinth. I found two photos of the class both in Stroudley Goods green, one of them shows a spanking new, just outshopped Watersfield no. 457, probably photographed at Brighton. That photo's too big to load here, but the one below of Storrington will do, though the engine's starting to look a bit grimey.

vince

Was the style of safety valve shown in both pictures patented and if so, did it have a specific name?

vince