watfordtmc

Just drawing attention to this current issue of Backtrack (Apr 2024), which contains the quite well known John Spencer Gills image of Banstead Goods Yard (Epsom Downs branch) on 24/05/1963. Image shows three 16t minerals, including LNER Dia 188 mineral E272920 (Cambrian). Some replating evident and welded side door visible, along with one LNE and one BR axlebox. Refs Backtrack April 2024, vol 38 no 4 issue 396, p 211. LNER Wagons 4A. Tatlow P, Wild Swan Publications (Didcot) 2012. P70-74 for discussion on steel mineral wagons. Regards TMc 22/03/2024

I don’t know the answer to your question but offer a couple of thoughts for you to ponder over: In an article dealing with Great Western containers, the very reliable John Lewis notes that GW steel bodied container 2179 was ‘written off’ in 1961 (Ref 1). I suspect this means the container had long since vanished, but it took until 1961 to get the accountants to accept the fact and write the asset down. Nevertheless it suggests that these steel bodied containers were still a, small, part of the railway scene as the 60’s dawned. In round numbers BR inherited 19,300 containers in 1948 and built a further 900 - mostly I suspect to Company orders not completed before nationalisation - in that year. But between 1948 and 1959, inclusive, BR withdrew around 14,700 containers. So by the 60’s pre-nationalisation containers were becoming uncommon. Between 1960 and 1962 BR withdrew a further 5,600 containers and in 1963 withdrew 5,200 that year (Ref 2). I would reckon you could wing it with one of these models but more than one, or in the company of anything with yellow paint on the front end and I’d say you’re in Rule 1 territory. But it’s your railway! References 1. Containers of the GWR, Lewis J, Scale Model Trains June 1988, vol 6 no 10, p 270-273. 2. British Railway Wagons, Rowland D, David & Charles 1985. See Table 3 and notes, p 12. (Don used the BTC Annual Accounts as his data source). Regards TMc 18/03/2024

@Hal Nail My local Smith’s still has around 6 copies available - in fact these days I wonder who else buys it apart from me... Next is due out on the 21st so you still have time to take a look at the current issue if you already done so. Pondering your comment on axleboxes this afternoon, I took a look through David Larkin’s Acquired Wagons 5. There about 80 images I thought relevant to your era of which 14 had BR axleboxes. Regards TMc 08/03/2024

Time to draw this post to a conclusion. Like @Steamport Southport and @Halvarras I had wondered if the stripe donated departmental use. But I couldn’t reconcile this with apparent use of the van in revenue traffic - although I would never like to say never on railway matters. However I feel that the observations by @BR traction instructor apply here. The van is being provided for some operational reason but is restricted to local duties only. @Wickham Green too draws attention to the painting of the van. My personal interpretation of the image is that the van has been repainted into BR freight grey, sometime in the 50’s I suspect, which has got extremely weathered. At some, much more recent time, the body each side of the ducket has been repainted, but not the ducket itself or the areas above and below it. The stripe however has been painted over the whole body, grimy ducket and all! Given that these Dia 34 vans were not built after 1929, and the decline in freight traffic by the mid-sixties, I would have expected a thirty year plus, non-standard brake van to have been withdrawn rather than be refettled for further use, even if limited. All rather odd. Thanks to everybody who responded to the post. Regards TMc 07/03/2024

I’be reopened this post to draw attention to this month’s Backtrack - March 2024 - which contains an image of H10 W36690 (Ref 1). W36690 was part of Lot 1494, delivered between February and April 1948 (Ref 2). Judging by the image (Fig 61) in Ref 3 all these were delivered in full GW livery. By the time 36690 was recorded, Oct 1961, it had evidently been repainted in BR livery and had been fitted with LNER pattern rectangular axle boxes - should you fancy customising your model! The wagon is loaded with container A42B, a ply bodied container to BR diagram 3/002 built at Darlington in 1949 (Ref 2). Trying to determine colours from shades of grey is probably foolish ... but as the shade (of grey!) of the container matches that of the conflat body I would say A42B is now painted bauxite/ freight red rather than crimson. References 1: Backtrack March 2024, Vol 38 No 3 (Issue 395), p 173. Image by David Murray-Smith. 2: Wagons of the Early British Railways Era, Larkin D, Kestral Railway Books 2006. Page 28 for brief discussion of container wagons; page 84 for listing of covered containers. 3: A Pictorial Record of Great Western Wagons, Russell JH, Oxford Publishing Co, reprint 1975. Page 34 for image of GW 36692. Regards TMc 29/02/2024 PS: Attached is the best capture I could get of the number

In the current edition of Backtrack (March 2024) one of the colour articles contains an image of a short mineral train just south of Leicester, dated 06/05/1965 (Ref 1). The train has brake vans at both ends. The van coupled next to engine is an early pattern LNER van of the sort that I deduce from Tatlow 4b (Ref 2) to be diagram 34, Toad B, with a wooden ducket. A diagonal white line is painted across the body & ducket of the van from, as you face the van, top right of the body to not quite bottom left of the body. I cannot recall seeing such a thing on a brake van before. Now to be sure the van does have an end opening door, two in fact!, but I don’t think that this is the purpose of the stripe. I have considered if the stripe is in fact sunlight being reflected off something onto the van body but there doesn’t seem to be anything that could make such a reflection, so I’m satisfied that the stripe is painted on. The engine (48687) carries one headlamp over the righthand buffer, as you face the smokebox. I understand this indicates a Class 9 stopping freight train at this date. So does the stripe indicate a brake van restricted to local duties or is there some other explanation for the stripe. Has anyone else noticed something similar on other brake vans, or have any knowledge or memories of such a thing? References 1: An East Midlands Portfolio, collection of Lathlane S, Backtrack March 2024, Vol 38 No 3 (Issue No 395), page 165. 2: LNER Wagons Volume 4b, Tatlow P, Wild Swan Books (Bath) 2015. pages 315-319 for discussion on early LNER brake vans. Regards TMc 23/02/2024

@Hal Nail Whilst I certainly have my views about the GWR they are not strong enough to justify expletives, which I prefer to avoid anyway. If you substitute the name of a well known item of GW Goods stock for the asterisks however ...! Regards TMc 21/02/2024

I think this topic has run its course now. Like @jimwal I had wondered if the sheets were plastic and/or given the location, at the western end of the Swansea District line, associated with the area’s tinplate industry. However the observations by @Cwmtwrch on dating and post WW2 austerity together with @Tony Cane astounding location of a video capture have caused me to revisit LNWR Wagons 2, and I accept that my end date for the image is too late. So I would say that these are late surviving sheets from the war/post-war period, quite possibly still with pre-nationalisation lettering, if only we could see them in close up! I do think though that the colour owes to a synthetic dye rather than natural colouring. @Wickham Green too commented on the early date for a colour image of a freight train. Clearly the image is even earlier than I had imagined. It also has a ‘snatched’ quality to it, as if Huw Daniel was actually just passing the location - which appears to be were the B4296 crosses the Swansea District - and had to seize the moment as it where to capture the sight. An old money OS Grid Reference would be SN 591 024, or not far from where the Swansea District crossed over the old LNWR route to Swansea. @Wickham Green too also enquired if there were any pre-nationalisation liveries visible. The quality of the image doesn’t really allow this to be determined, other than one SR van potentially still in SR brown. I will just mention that coupled next behind the D88 is a low roofed vehicle of indeterminate provenance. I hesitate to use the words ***n **n* so I haven’t but ... Thanks to everyone who responded, and I hope that all those that took a peek got something from the post as well. Regards TMc 19/02/2024

Idly flicking through the current issue of Steam Days in a well known magazine browsing library cum booksellers/stationers, my eye was caught by a striking image of a GW 42xx hauling a substantial train of vans (Ref 1). At least 3 vans had their rooves covered with a RED wagon sheet, when I would have expected the sheets to be black. The published works on BR wagons say nothing about wagon sheets at all, and the standard works on GWR, LMS and LNER wagons all imply black sheets. Southern Wagons 4 however has this to say “... your writer remembers that wagon sheets came in two colours, black or a red-brown colour. The only clue so far uncovered appears in The LMS at War, where there is mention of ‘red’ wartime wagon sheets, ...”. So it seems that red wagon sheets are known, but this is the first time I can recall noticing one (or more). However I would have expected any war time sheets to be out of service by the time I think the image was captured. Dating The image, by Huw Daniel, is undated. The unidentified engine is carrying a large early emblem. The consist includes what I believe to be an LNWR Dia 88 Covered Goods Van, so my guess is that the images dates from somewhere around 1950 to 1955. Colour To my eye the sheets are faded coach crimson... Checking against a couple of colour charts, either Tamika Spray TS18 Metallic Red or Humbrol Acrylic DB0019 Bright Red / DB0174 Signal Red, seem closest in colour but in all cases the sheets seem both brighter and lighter. Does anyone have any knowledge, memories or thoughts on ‘red’ wagon sheets? How common where they and how long did they continue to be used by BR. References Steam Days in Colour 230: GWR eight-coupled tank engines: Cardiff and beyond, Steam Days February 2024, No. 414, Mortons Media Group, p34-35. An illustrated History of Southern Wagons Volume 4, Bixley G, Blackburn A, Chorley R, King M, Oxford Publishing Co (Hersham) 2002, p25. Regards TMc 12/12/2024

A thought. Does the writing - Loco Coal - deceive. Steam Railways were significant users of domestic and industrial coals as well as ‘traction’ coals. Swindon would have had its forges and furnaces, there were the fire devils to keep water columns and tanks warm, coals for station offices and rooms and so on. You wouldn’t use best Welsh steam coal for these purposes, but coals from other coalfields had good reputations for the domestic/industrial properties of their coals. Could this be a situation were the Stores Superintendent had concluded a contract with an off-GW system colliery for a supply of coal or coal product, with a discount if loaded to customer’s own wagons, for which the N series wagons would be the most suitable? In short, are the wagons not actually conveying ‘Loco’ coal at all but some other coal or coal product. TMc 10/02/2024

Loco coal wagons were, it seems, classed as departmental stock until 1952 (Ref 1) so the DW prefix would be appropriate although unusual on this size of wagon - and not very common on the 20/21 ton vehicles either. Livery: I suspect dark grey (including under frame) but it would be a brave person who could really distinguish between weathered dark grey and weathered black from a monochrome image ... The wagon book beloved of Greatwesternistas - GWR Goods Wagons - notes dark grey including the under frame as the standard livery but suggests black as a possibility for loco department wagons (Ref 2). Consider also the interesting suggestion by @bécasse above, also possibly the exigencies of war/post-war austerity. So I wouldn’t discount black subject to any further evidence. If the wagon had received an overhaul/repaint from say, after mid-1948 to early 1952, then BR’s departmental colour was black. An interesting capture, thanks for sharing it. Russell unreliable? Unlike anyone on RMWeb, JH Russell was actually there. Moreover he never set out to be “... a strict historian ...”, but rather his recollections of the wagons of the wagons he “... worked with and amongst ...” Recollections that even then were 30 years old. Which of us can claim perfect recollection of events 30 years ago. References 1. British Railway Wagons, Rowland D, David & Charles 1985. Tables 1 & 2 and notes, p 10. Don used the BTC Annual Reports and Accounts as his data source. 2. A History of GWR Goods Wagons, Atkins A, Beard W, Hyde D, Tourret R, David & Charles 1975, p88. The wording used remained unchanged in the enlarged Torret Publishing edition: Atkins A, Beard W, Tourret R, Tourret Publishing 1998, p64. 3. A Pictorial Record of Great Western Wagons, Russel J, Oxford Publishing Co 1975. See Preface. Regards TMc

Just a reminder that it wasn't just coal that got carried... Regards TMc 31/01/2022

Definitely not a D299 and, as I don’t know the scope of your answer to Ko-Ko, it may be outside the boundaries of your interest, but may I draw your attention to: Wingham BR period however. Regards TMc 31/01/2022

Whilst I note the jibe at the expense of the SEC, I would observe that when REL Maunsell set up his management team at Ashford, as well as Harold Holcroft, he also recruited GH Pearson and Lionel Lynes from Swindon. Pearson, who became Maunsell’s assistant and Ashford Works Manager, had been the Carriage and Wagons Works manager at Swindon, whilst Lynes became Maunsell’s Chief Carriage and Wagon Draughtsman, having held a senior C&W post in the drawing office at Swindon. The ensuing wagons are described as having “details … of Great Western practice…” so perhaps they should be seen, as it were, as the spawn of Satan, err Swindon and therefore worthy of purchase by GW types… Responsibility for any resulting damages to bank balances is disclaimed! Reference An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons Volume Three: SECR, Bixley G, Blackburn A, Chorley R, King M, Oxford Publishing Co (Shepperton) 2000. Regards TMc 28/01/2022

It seems to me that whenever I comment on something ‘Great Western’ it always involves me in extra work! I have reviewed the correspondence in MRC that arose from the original drawing. The consensus of opinion is that there were two observation cars, although I don’t think this is in doubt, each converted from an Ashbury built 5-compartment lavatory third. Neither length nor numbers of the original vehicles was noted, but they were originally built in July 1894. M.E. Morton Lloyd advised that there was a “diagram” of the cars published in the February 1916 issue of Locomotive Magazine, for those wanting a nicely obscure source of information. Mr. Morton Lloyd also noted that after withdrawal the body of one of the cars was sold off, and became a transport café – Mac’s Café - at Aldermaston, lasting long enough for a television to be installed. One correspondent recalled riding in the cars and noted, despite what the headboards said, that the cars did not work through to Machynlleth, but stopped at Dovey Junction “… where … the Coast trains terminated.” This correspondent also recalled seeing both cars at Birmingham Snow Hill around 1927, when newly repainted into GW livery. The cars would be quite a quirky thing to model, but there are some challenges @Prometheus please note. Foremost amongst these is that the underframes were of the sort with the axle guards outside the wheels. The headstocks also followed the line of the bow ends, which meant the buffer stocks, which had four ribs, were an unusual length. I suppose this could mean that the original vehicles were 35’ in length, with the bow ends of the rebuilds giving the 37’7” (or 37’6”) length referred to above. Could the difference between 37’6” and 37’7” be accounted for by whether the measurement was over the headstocks or the beading of the body panels? Judging by the image published in MRC the cars were very open, so an interior would have to be modelled as well. The amended drawing in the April ’65 MRC does not include an interior plan, so reference will need to be made to @corneliuslundie's post for details. M.E. Morton Lloyd (referenced by @Miss Prism) published a very nice set of drawings for some Cambrian six-wheeled stock in the September 1964 issue of MRC. As these give rather better detail of the underframes than the Rush drawing it might be worth getting hold of a copy of this issue as well (Model Railway Constructor, September 1964, vol 31, no 365). Incidentally, Mr. Morton-Lloyd subsequently wrote to MRC to draw attention to an error he had made in his drawings! Even Homer nods…. Perhaps Mr. Rush got to the heart of the matter in his letter, when he noted “…one cannot take anything for granted, particularly with the Cambrian, which was an individualist among railways.” Regards TMc 28/01/2022