Rail Way

any truth that ex first md dave kaye has been brought in to shake them up.

apparently abellio senior management are not happy with greater anglia. 

5 minutes ago, russ p said:

You clearly dont have much grip on reality and dont seem to realise that none of the branches have any OLE.

I am surprised that you come out with this comment.

As you are aware, the rural services mostly run out of Ipswich and Norwich. Both of those stations have wires and part of the route that some of the rural routes take out of those station is under wires as well - not the whole routes but parts of them.

Until the fleet transformation started, they had to use diesel from terminus to terminus. Now part of the route on some of these services is electrified so they can use the wires when this is the case and when they are switching to a non electrified section, switch to diesel.

This means a reduction of fuel usage, is better for the environment and should also mean better performance since the switch between electric and battery mode on these state of the art trains is quick and easily performed.

33 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Just because the fault hasn't come to light until now doesn't mean it hasn't been there all along. It's entirely possible to get away with a non compliant system for a long time until something comes along which is itself compliant but is still able to expose a non compliance in a way which nothing previously has.

 

I'm not saying that that is what's happened, just that something appearing to work doesn't mean that it meets the standards required of it.

Indeed and this is what I have been trying to point out but few are willing to listen. 

Anyway, lets see what the next few days bring - hopefully Network Rail will discover what the problem is and fix it. 

33 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

If GA management are so faultless, why did they plan a depot in an unsuitable place which is now dropped?

 

why have they bought a new universal BEMU fleet that is too long for some of the rural branchlines?

 

why have they bought a fleet with teeny tiny fuel tanks which means every unit needs fuel every day but haven’t got the depot capacity to actually put fuel in that many units every day?

As you may be aware, unfortunately Greater Anglia, like any company applying for planning permission, does not have control of the planning system and in this country people are able to make objections to planning permission for very obscure and self serving reasons and you also have plenty of Nimbys about who would object to anything. Unfortunately companies can never be sure that planning permission will be granted as people have become more and more clever in order to create sophisticated arguments in order to get planning permission blocked for a project they don't want to go ahead. I hardly think you can blame Greater anglia for that.

In relation to the rural branchlines having too long trains, I do not believe this is true and there is nothing that states that it is. It was clearly a deliberate ploy to order a mixture of 3 car and 4 car units as this gives operational flexibility and whilst there are some places that the four car units cannot fit, the three car units will do. Door positioning on the 755s also has taken into account platform lengths and of course there is also cutting edge technology on board these new state of the art trains that ensures that if a train does hang off a platform, only doors fully within the platform are able to open. 

In relation to fuel, what is often misunderstood is the 755 services are bi-mode units and can run on electricity as well as conventional diesel. Some of the lines that the new fleet run on are partly electrified, so will only be using fuel for the sections where there are no wires, unlike the legacy much higher polluting fleet that required running under diesel even on sections of the route where there were wired provided. This will help the environment as well as use less fuel than the aging, heavier polluting trains they are replacing. 

51 minutes ago, Christopher125 said:

Absolutely, 100%... but that doesn't mean he hasn't got a point, however badly he puts it across.

 

I do feel there's been an assumption by most enthusiasts that the train *must* be to blame, but it seems entirely possible that the Stadler design merely exposes some kind of fault or design issue with the signalling that shouldn't exist.

It is good that there is at least one wise man around here.

People are doing exactly as you say, making assumptions that the train is the problem when in reality the trains, both old and new, are not being picked up by the signalling system which points to a flaw with the system which has now come to the fore, perhaps through general wear and tear and heavy usage. Since there have been many test trains run to roll out the new fleet as well as the normal scheduled journeys, this would have subjected the infrastructure to increased usage compared to previous years, which may be a factor in why these problems did not happen in previous years. 

1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

GA are perfectly correct in saying there are signalling issues. It looks very much like the signalling issues are caused by the new trains. It doesn't matter whatsoever if one line as some obscure method - that was there before the new trains, it wasn't a secret, so compatibility with the obscure method should have been included in the spec.

This is merely speculation, the kind that the MD quite rightly called out recently.

How do you know that Stadler didn't do there part and the system was compatible with this so called obscure method and instead the problem is actually with the equipment specified by Network Rail that is not performing as expected?

Once again, I doubt you will show me any proof that Stadler had a design flaw, more spoofing basically. 

1 hour ago, ruggedpeak said:

You are not an interested observer, no sign of observing, just naive regurgitation of GA press releases. You've come onto a modelling forum and posted only on this non-modelling topic. I wonder how many other sites you have suddenly appeared on.

 

Quite why perfectly good units like the 360's are being replaced at huge cost remains unclear. A waste of time and money, and hardly good for the environment.

I am an interested observer, I do not have any vested interests. I just am not a fan of conspiracy theories, that's all. 

In relation to the 360s the Aventra units will be newer and have more comfortable seating, USB power sockets and Wifi and will benefit from faster acceleration, walk through gangways, better passenger information systems and are longer than the 360s which have the drawback of being well worn and with no corridor connections. I'm not sure what you think, but I happen to think that's a significant upgrade whilst at the same time supporting British jobs, which is very important. 

8 minutes ago, 50A55B said:

Straight question Rail Way, are you an employee of or service provider to GA?

I do not work in the rail industry and I never have, I am merely an interested observer.

I have no connection with any company involved in this matter so have zero conflict of interest.

I am simply being a big supporter of rail travel being transformed in East Anglia as the result of Greater Anglia's groundbreaking plan to replace all the legacy rolling stock with new build stock, which has never been done before by any other operator. After East Anglia being neglected by operators for many years, it is about time it was our turn. 

Anyway, I can take a hint that my input is not welcome here so this will be my last post.

7 minutes ago, russ p said:

Have you not thought there maybe substantial management bonuses at stake if the new train aren't into service soon?

The parent company clearly has faith in the management of Greater Anglia.

If they were that concerned then I'm sure they would make a change, but they haven't because perhaps management are actually doing a good job considering the difficult circumstances that they have found themselves in?

4 minutes ago, ess1uk said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-50811723

latest 

Ancient History more like.

Here's the latest:

https://www.northnorfolknews.co.uk/news/no-date-train-disruption-norwich-sheringham-line-1-6428472?fbclid=IwAR1a-5-AIyThc7cR71klwLBmZ8PGSuonbr94YjM0NG-XHGyvHKdYhJWTfd0

Quote

In his weekly message to staff, Greater Anglia's managing director Jamie Burles said the speed restrictions would remain in place until Network Rail changed the signalling system, which is different to other lines in the region.

"Network Rail and Greater Anglia colleagues literally worked through day and night to fully understand the causes," he said.

"Network Rail installed sophisticated signal measuring equipment on Norwich-Cromer-Sheringham line to gain vital information on what was happening, particularly regarding level crossings.

"The information that came back showed the signalling system wasn't picking up both old and new trains as strongly as Network Rail would like."

Mr Burles added that the service was better than last week when 80 services were cancelled every day across the network.

But that disruption has put back the testing of Greater Anglia's new fleet of trains and driver training. He said that would cause some cancellations on routes out of Ipswich.

Mr Burles also took a swipe at the media in his weekly message, accusing it of "incorrect headlines" for stating that the company's new Stadler trains were the cause of problems.

The bits in bold might be useful for the know-it-alls here.

8 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

How about YOU produce evidence of the signalling faults (other than the one under RAIB investigation) and we'll be happy to consider it ?

I will tell you the same as I told your friend on the previous page.

Greater Anglia and Network Rail, the train operator of this region and the infrastructure provider has stated that there are signalling issues and Greater Anglia has recently as today said there is a fault with the signalling system on their social media pages and their train updates. Do you think that these people are lying. A simple yes or no will suffice.

It is not up to me to prove that what you say is incorrect. It is up to you to prove that you are correct and you have failed to do so yet again and are trying to turn the burden of proof on to me which is a typical fallacy that is used by people who simply have nothing to back their wafer thin argument up. I can see right through you, I'm sure others can too, it seems GA certainly can, since their message on Friday on their FAQ seemed to suggest they're well aware of the rubbish that is being spouted. 

12 minutes ago, swills said:

Was it not said when the trains were first ordered that no one on the Ops side of GA were consulted, they were ordered by the commercial side, so there maybe the first glimpses of issues to come back then.

 

The 755's certainly do not like the UK network it seems, but that is not really a NR fault.  HOWEVER NR WILL one assumes have to alter things at great cost to enable GA to run the darn things.

 

There has also been days on end with no service on the Felixstowe, for no real reason at all,   None on the Sudbury, but they have not had any test trips at all yet on there, so that is one reason, if no spare 156's

 

Fuel is another big issue, and is causing a lot of delays and cancellations.

In relation to Felixstowe services that were cancelled a fair bit last month this was the result of unfortunate incidents.

The problem is many of the rural lines are exactly that and the weather hasn't been great this year. Flooding and a number of vehicles hitting animals and vandalism incidents have resulted in the Greater Anglia DMU fleet being very stretched for a number of months now. This was down to sheer bad luck and there's nothing that Greater Anglia could do about this, when your luck is out and your luck is out.

We should not hold a number of freak incidents against Greater Anglia, since the whole idea of ordering the new fleet is to give more redundancy - to prevent this kind of issue in the future and this order will certainly do that, with longer carriages, more comfortable seats, USB sockets, more tables, high speed Wifi and far better passenger amenities. Rail is being transformed in this region and instead of moaning about first world problems, maybe we should realise how lucky we are, when you compare some of the other franchise owning groups who would never even think of doing such a massive step change transformation. 

Stadler are a well proven train building company and have made FLIRTS all around the world and many repeat customers. If they were so bad as you say they are and everyone else was having problems how would this be the case? The rolling stock market is competitive, you don't win the number of orders that Stadler do if your work is sub standard. Perhaps there's a little bit of sour grapes here because that they were not built in the UK and that is why the anti Stadler vibe?

Of course Network Rail will have to fix things at great cost to make the trains run, because passengers deserve to be able to depend on their train service and to enjoy the new features of state of the art rolling stock. If the signalling system worked perfectly then Network Rail wouldn't have to spend this money, but the system doesn't work perfectly so Network Rail need to invest time and money on fixing the issues with the signalling system. 

9 minutes ago, russ p said:

They could last forever if they can't find out exactly what happened and why 

Those GA press releases are like 70s eastern block countries reporting on tractor production! 

I bet there were conspiracy theorists in the 70s as well, although at least the internet didn't exist so they couldn't spread so easily.

10 minutes ago, Siggie in the east said:

That's the comment of the week! 

 I couldn't agree more.  Obviously mr Rail Way here is Jamie Burles in disguise or his fan boy as he is believing the Q&A pages of a company who are obviously going to deny/defend their rolling stock because the reality of the truth is going to cost them a FORTUNE to sort out.

Yes the truth will out eventually but given that there are people who signal trains (me included), work on the infrastructure(I have previously) also drive the trains in this region, work for S&T AND all are exposed to the facts of what goes on on a day to day basis, you seem to think that we are nothing but theorists and rumour spreading novices! I cant seem to understand why you think that the press office at GA, who are TOLD what to publish, are more believable than people that are working on the front line on a day to day basis. 

Why would it cost Greater Anglia a fortune? The infrastructure is owned by Network Rail and it is their responsibility for it's upkeep.

The fault with the signalling system on the Norwich to Sherringham line is apparently so bad that the whole line might have to have the signalling system changed to a system as used on other lines in the country which are not suffering problems, from what I have heard because there are serious issues with both new and legacy stock being picked up 

But apparently it's the new trains of course....

14 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Do you have any inside information, or are you taking what GA's publicity department have said at face value?

 

I don't know any of the details of this myself, but I've seen the details behind enough other incidents to know that the public story is designed to make the company telling it look as innocent as possible and is also highly simplified because you usually have to be up to your armpits in the detail to begin to understand what's actually gone on and why.

If you want to produce a document with some proof that what they say is correct, based on actual evidence rather than your opinion and what you perceive, by all means go ahead and I'll be happy to consider it. Think I'll be waiting a long time though. 

At the end of the day we've been through all of this before and this idea that Greater Anglia isn't being honest is a bit farcical and as I've said before, if you are going to make such claims you need to back them up since people who make damaging accusations about companies have in the past found themselves in hot water. 

14 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

What I will do is ask a simple question - would it be a politically / strategically / whatever-ally move for GA to admit their new trains are at fault ?

Why would Greater Anglia not be honest?

At the end of the day if it's as simple as you say it is and the new trains are not to blame, then surely the Department for Transport will see that too? Do you really think Abellio would take that big risk of covering something like this up when they make the amount of money that they do from franchises in the UK? That would be extremely reckless and the Dutch do not do business in that way.

It is no wonder that Greater Anglia are frustrated. According to press reports today Jamie Burles has now hit out at the local media for printing what seem to be clearly inaccurate stories blaming the new trains for the problem. I guess it's probably fuelled by the people outside the industry last week posting rumour and speculation on web forums who have no idea what they are talking about. 

These problems cannot last forever and sooner or later Network Rail is going to have to pluck up the courage and take the hit and do some serious work on the infrastructure to make sure that all trains, whether they be freight or passenger, Greater Anglia or East Midlands Railway, modern, mid-life or aging rolling stock can offer a reliable service that passengers expect and deserve. Unfortunately right now they are being failed, despite the best efforts of GA. 

People deserve to see the benefits of these new, transformational trains that will be a step change in comfort for passengers in East Anglia but this can only happen when the fault with the signalling system is resolved. 

1 minute ago, uax6 said:

 

Priority? What sort of boll*cks are you talking about here? The only priority that is given is on the class of train, class 1's (express passengers) get priority over class 2's (stopping passengers) who get the run on stock and freight. There is no other levels of priority.

 

Mitigation dear boy. If it is railhead contamination then we clean it up the most efficient way we can, and sometimes running a RHTT is the best way to do so, and some weeks we have to run more than others, dependant on the weather and leaf fall.

 

Do you think they would? Would it look professional to have a public slinging match rather than just getting on and sorting what it could do to help the situation out...

 

Andy G

You don't have to take my word for it about priority, there it is in black and white. 
https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/about-us/news-desk/blog-post/latest-information-greater-anglia-rail-disruption-in-norfolk-and

If it is railhead contamination then surely this effects all trains rather than just the new trains. Now perhaps I am incorrect, but we don't have Maglev trains in this country at the moment and the old tired legacy stock on GA that is being replaced by transformational new stock certainly isn't capable of somehow rising above the track to skip over the contaminated rails. 

If someone was blaming my company for their own failures then there is not a cat in hells chance that I would sit back and do nothing. I would make sure that I didn't take any of the flack for something that is outside my control. The simple fact is that it's likely that if Network Rail did come out and state the new trains are at fault, despite nothing from those involved in this matter that suggests this, of course GA are not going to sit there and take it and nor should they when they have been very open and honest with a range of detailed and informative FAQs in recent days. 

5 minutes ago, uax6 said:

Do you know what NR has actually done then?

 

What proof have you got that the faults isn't with the new trains? What proof do you have to that GA are telling the true truth?

 

Andy G

 

 

I've just made another post where I've informed you.

You seem to not know what burden of proof is. You are not right until somebody proves you wrong. It is up to you to prove what you are saying and so far all I see are words on a screen and perceptions. 

Some random person on a forum who I don't know from Adam who could be literally anyone versus experienced railwaymen paid to do their job who work for Greater Anglia with probably decades of years of experience. 

Not hard to choose who to believe is it and I would be very careful about making accusations against a company that you are unable to back up. 

21 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

Right.  So what you are basically saying is in the Autumns prior to 2019 there were still signalling problems, but they didn't really cause the level of disruption we have witnessed in the past three months ? Some of that may be the case because NR have commissioned a lot of new signalling over the last year or so.

 

But sorry, I am not totally buying it.  GA would not be cleaning wheelsets with citrus oil if they knew the Stadlers were not a problem.  Don't get me wrong, Stadler have a huge reputation, and I find it very difficult to believe their products don't interact with the infrastructure here in the UK like they do in Holland, Germany and Switzerland.

Was the testing at Velim concluded satisfactorily ?

  

The disruption over the past few weeks has been caused by faults with the signalling system. Greater Anglia have said this over and over again and you still don't get it. As they said last week in an FAQ piece on their site, the idea that the new trains are solely to blame is categorically not true.

I also read back through the thread and noticed people saying freight trains and EMR trains are running and that is further proof it's the new trains that are broken. What a load of imaginative rubbish. Network Rail is responsible for prioritising which trains run on their infrastructure, so again, perhaps ask them why they didn't give GA higher priority. 

In addition, Network Rail last week were running extra rail head treatment trains because of the problems on the infrastructure which also caused many cancellations. Do you think they would waste their time, money and effort and running such trains if the infrastructure was fine and the problem was related to a fault with the new trains? 

Taking all the above into account, you'd think if NR were being blamed for something that isn't their fault, they'd come out and say something about it. But no, they're working with GA on the issues and are looking at how ALL TRAINS (both new and old) interact with the infrastructure. If it's obviously the new trains as you claim, isn't it odd that Network Rail haven't just come out and said it. Perhaps the reason NR haven't, is because the new trains are not the cause after all?

17 minutes ago, uax6 said:

Wow, That's a strong statement of 'facts'. Sadly how do you explain that there new trains seem to have issues operating level crossing equipment, but no-one elses do?

 

If you actually take the time to properly read this thread you will notice that its actually very balanced, and huge amounts of inside knowledge is being levied out to what is actually going on.

 

Or you can continue to only half read and think that GA's trains are not the problem and its all Nr's...

 

Andy G

Have you read any statement that Greater Anglia have put out? There is a very good FAQ on their site that explains it. Are you really saying that the operator is being economical with the truth? That's a pretty big accusation to make without any actual proof. 

If we are talking about the line where there was a near miss, if it was just the new trains, can you explain why the changes to level crossings, speed reductions and new approach by Network Rail to dealing with these crossings is applying to all trains? If it was only the new trains, surely they would only apply such process to them, right? 

GA have been open and very transparent and honest with what is going on. The amount of conspiracy theories about the new trains on here, twitter and other social media must be very frustrating for GA who are transforming rail services in East Anglia.

The new trains are not the problem. There is nothing wrong with their performance or their design. How ever much people keep adding 2+2 together and coming up with five because of a false perception, it won't change things. 

Unfortunately GA have been unable to run a good service, because of a fault with the signalling system. No matter how much you try and blame Greater Anglia for this, they do not run the signalling system, Network Rail do, so perhaps give them a call.

The signalling problems are continuing to seriously effect the Norwich to Sheringham line. Despite rumour from those who know nothing, as Greater Anglia have said, all trains., including diesel trains and freight trains have been affected by these problems. The constant banging of the drums that only the new trains are having problems because of the fault with the signalling system is simply not true. 

5 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said:

The latest from the local comic.....

https://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/greater-anglia-new-trains-cleared-1-6428610

 

Interesting that the problem is now being said to be affecting all types of trains on the Sheringham line, but that there are no problems anywhere else........(apart from the minor fact they haven't got enough stock to run the IPS-PBO service until the new year...)

If its the signalling on the Sheringham line, can we look forward to a further shambles when the Wherry lines are converted to new signalling in February?

There is no shortage of trains, this is incorrect and is yet more rumours from people outside the railway industry who have no knowledge of what is going on. I feel sorry for Greater Anglia when constant rumour is being spread about them that has no basis on reality. 

The issues on the Peterborough Line are caused by the earlier fault with the signalling system which has meant that whilst there are enough trains, they have not yet been cleared to run on the Ipswich to Peterborough Line. Do you really expect them to run trains before they have trained their staff on the line and established it is safe?

Several trains on some of the rural lines such as Norwich and Ipswich to Cambridge have been hit by signalling system issues again today causing some pretty hefty delays. Instead of constantly berating Greater Anglia, try blaming Network Rail. 

The signalling issues over the past three weeks are what have caused issues on Greater Anglia. This has effected both new and old trains and the idea that new trains are the problem really doesn't hold any water.

Best not criticise GA, they might have another pop at rumour spreaders who don't work in the industry. 

5 hours ago, Siggie in the east said:

Another terrible article!

 

"Despite the signalling issues, other franchises and freight companies have been running their trains on the same lines due to network rail prioritisation and how old and new GA trains interact with the signalling system...." another load of BS!

 

We haven't prioritised anything differently due to GAs debacle with their Basils. We run a specific timetable the same way every day because we have to. Nothing gets priority over anything else unless it's due to late running but with all the cancellations every day, even late freight coming in from another region has managed to make all it's time up because of all the free paths. Starting to get pretty fed up of anglian "newspapers" spouting BS all the time.

Apologies, rant over now.

To be fair, that's not the local press opinion, the local press were sent this by Greater Anglia
https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/about-us/news-desk/blog-post/latest-information-greater-anglia-rail-disruption-in-norfolk-and

I particularly like this bit

We do not know the full picture yet and it is not appropriate to rely on rumours (which are being spread by people who are not directly involved in the investigation and in many cases not even in the rail industry).

I guess that is calling us all out here? :)