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andreas

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  1. I have just come across an aerial photo taken on 16th January 1924 (Source: https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/archive/collections/aerial-photos/record/RAF_CPE_UK_1924_FS_2112, among others) The resolution is not good enough to make out details, but based on the shadows it looks like there used to be a small structure alongside the short siding. Judging by the length of the shadows I would say no more than perhaps ten feet tall. Also interesting is the lack of even ground in that part of the yard. Why would a heavy 7 ton crane be placed in such an inconvenient spot? The second photo seems to support the cattle sales yard hypothesis. If I'm not mistaken that's three cows on the way to the cattle dock.
  2. The 1948 photo in SDRT Bulletin 258 does indeed show small LMS lettering in the lower left corner of the van. It also shows darker spots where the original larger LMS lettering must have been (first, third, and fifth panel section from the left). The colour is difficult to tell from the photos and the articles don't mention anything either, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was S&DJR grey with the obligatory layers of grime on top. By the way, I've just come across an 1946 aerial photo of the S&D van/wagon and the MR clerestory in their natural habitat (source: https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW002937 ). Interestingly, an earlier riding van is paired with the other vehicles. This could well be the same six-wheeled brake that appears in photos from the early 1930s. What livery would LMS departmental coaches have carried at this point? Apologies, I haven't got any of the relevant books handy at the moment.
  3. Having spent a bit time double and triple-checking my photo collection, I think I may have found a picture of the crane. The following is a crop from a D. Cullum photo reproduced in Middleton Press's Bournemouth to Evercreech Junction and also in SDRT Bulletin 177. The photo is dated 1922 so fits nicely into in-between the 1901 map and the 1938 RCH handbook. The older maps also show some open space around and what looks like road access to the crane. The open space had disappeared by the 1950s (see photo below) but there is still some kind of crossing visible just ahead of the coach. Perhaps the area was simply filled in when the crane was taken out of use? Another aspect I had missed, I can't see how the spur could have served the cattle dock. Sure, it looks like it on maps from c1900 but compare the position of the point lever on the left (1962, from John Betjeman's film) with the photo with the spur intact (1954, thetransportlibrary.co.uk). The spur would have run straight into the concrete of the cattle dock. I assume that's more arguments in favour of the crane theory. The only question remains, why was the siding kept until 1960 if it's original purpose had vanished by the 1930s? The other sidings had been removed much earlier.
  4. Hi all, I’m trying to understand find out a little more how the small station goods yard just at Evercreech Jct was operated (i.e. not the large marshalling yard(s) at Evercreech Jct North). Was it served by trip workings from the yard or a passing goods train? How was the yard shunted? Does anyone know what the small siding off the back road was used for? The siding was only removed in January 1960. However, I think I’ve only seen it in use once: on the far left of the attached Ivo Peters picture from 12th July 1952 (marked in red). The only clues I've found so far are from old maps: There must have been a 7 ton hand crane once. Perhaps it was used for heavier loads that couldn't be handled in the goods shed. However, the crane must have been long gone by the time of Nationalisation as I can't find any traces in photos. Also the ground isn't flat, which would have limited the use of road vehicles. The siding could have been used in connection with a cattle sale yard that is mentioned on a map from 1901. There was indeed a cattle dock between this siding and the entrance to the goods yard but I'm not 100% sure which way that faced. There is around 1 to 2 metres of space between the pens and the edge facing the mainline. In any case, the cattle sales must have stopped relatively early as more recent maps don't show anything. I would rule out the slaughterhouse and the tile works, both of which had their own sidings.
  5. I haven't seen a build date but SDRT Bulletin 258 surmises it must have been (re)built at Highbridge between 1900 and 1919. The van half is indeed almost identical to Derby-built S&D road vans, except for some planking and strapping details. The wagon part is said to be similar to Midland ex-PO 4-plank wagons as used in the 1870s and 80s. Bulletin 138 assumes a 9' 6" + 9' 6" wheelbase but I haven't seen anything definite.
  6. The weird and wonderful van/wagon hybrid did indeed exist. SDRT Bulletins no. 138 and 258 contain articles with some photos, identifying the van as LMS no. 358464. The photos date from 1948, but I'm reasonably certain I can spot the vehicle lurking in the background of a photo from August 1951. However, by November 1952, the previously mentioned (GWR?) van no. 116097 had taken its place, only to be replaced again in c1961 by a LMS van with sliding doors. P.s. Bulletin 138 mentions the article you must have seen was in Model Railway News May 1952
  7. Excellent work John. Your breakdown train looks just like the real thing. I'm afraid I'm half a year late now, but perhaps the information is still useful. The riding van was DM198698M. I have found the attached picture, which nicely shows its side in what must have been the early 1950s. The SDRT also have a great photo available: https://www.sdrt.org/product/Bath-Green-Park-MR-Coach-DM198698M-On-Shed-05-08-62/. I'm not sure which diagram this coach originally was. Based on the spacing between windows it could have started off as a non-corridor first. The SDRT site mentions a built date of 1909, but the contemporary D481 48ft non corridor first doesn't match. The tool van must have changed over time. The attached photo shows no. 116097 but the one visible in some 1960s photos is definitely different. See for example https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/44740057460/. [Edit: 116097 must have been an ex-GWR van, which appeared between 8/51 and 11/52 and lasted until c 1961. Afterwards, an LMS van with sliding doors took over, the number of which I cannot make out, but it definitely ends in 5, likely in 5925.]
  8. I have recently come across Colour Rail photo SD306 on ebay and thought it fits rather well to this discussion: 4F 44591 with the Bath breakdown train at Moorewood sidings in February 1953. This may well be one of the few photos of the train in action. What the occasion was and why a Saltley loco would be used is a bit of a mystery to me.
  9. This is rather interesting. I'm not surprised that by 1960 Highbridge was no longer covered by an S&D breakdown train. The last photo of the Highbridge vans are from c1956. However, I also didn't know about an Evercreech Jct tool van. The closest I've come across are an R.C. Riley photo dated 20th September 1958 showing Signal Department tool vans 14944 and 14986 (both ex GWR diagram CC3). I have also recently seen a 1956 photo of an ex-GWR 4-wheeled composite (?) as M&E coach W32. Both are seen parked in the station goods yard but must have been visitors. I haven't found any other photos of departmental vehicles. I wonder if the vans assigned to Evercreech Junction were perhaps stabled somewhere else? Templecombe? @The Stationmaster do you happen to have similar assignment data for later years? In 1962, ex-LSWR brake third DS1578, the tool van stabled at Templecombe loco, is clearly labelled 'Templecombe Breakdown Train'. It, or one like it, had been there from c1955 onwards. Earlier, from the 1940s to c1957 there was also an ex-MR 6w clerestory, possibly LMS no. 355462. However, I can't find any photos of the lettering. Additionally, from at least summer 1961 to August 1964, there was another coach stationed in Templecombe lower yard: maroon ex-LMS P1 D1962 vestibule third number M8439M. I am still trying to understand its purpose (other than it being a perfect example of gradual weathering over time) (see also Andreas
  10. Hi John, Thank you for sharing the drawings. Out of curiosity, do you know how far south the BGP breakdown train worked? Would it have been used at e.g. Evercreech Jct? Or would that have been in the hands of the Templecombe or, in earlier years, Highbridge trains? I can't tell you what the projections are for but I found a few detail photos that might help. It appears there are two distinct types of attachments. ( https://railphotoprints.uk/p752970880/h2def2b5b#h166c0b83 ) Andreas P.s. I have sent you a message.
  11. Thank you all for sharing your experience. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the exact mechanisms but I can see how the checkrail gap will be a challenge. It's probably obvious but what is the relationship between wheel tread thickness and check rail gap? Or did I misunderstand and the relationship is purely gap width vs. flange width? Is there also a dependency on the radius of the turnout? N Gauge Finetrax is definitely superior to Peco (at the cost of finally restricting pizza cutters to the kitchen). Wayne Kinney, the maker of Finetrax, has recently clarified the exact measurements on the Templot forum https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/n-gauge-nfx.509/ Curves should not be a problem in the short to mid term. I am planning an end-to-end layout based on Evercreech Junction. The main line is curved ever so slightly at around 50" radius. That would make the points the bottleneck, but even then I don't think I will go below a B7 outside the goods yard. Building locos to n gauge standards is of course an option. Bachmann have recently started offering complete wheelsets for all their models at around £6 per axle. The only downside are the unsightly coupling rods and the challenge of adopting existing kits (is that even possible?) to the much narrower BTB. In any case I'll have another go at converting a loco to finescale and perhaps even try to finally build a chassis for the S&DJR Sentinel body I have sitting around. Even if I end up with n gauge for the main layout I can always build a tiny shunting layout for the two locos. Radstock or Writhlington would lend themselves perfectly to a Sentinel and a Jinty. Andreas P.s. apologies for only responding now. Lack of time is the exact reason why I'm looking for a solution that gives me something to play with the in the short term without sacrificing options for more detail in the long run.
  12. Thank you for your insights Bob and Chris. You have confirmed what I expected. The complete lack of hybrid layouts should have been a clue! I fully unterstand that 2mm chassis won't be an option in this case. I was hoping to get away with 0.5mm narrower spacers and just adjusting the BTB. If 2FS loco wheels are not an option that becomes rather more than half a millimetre though. At least wagons and coaches can be converted easily with the Association n gauge wheels. I suppose in my circumstances I will build the layout with n gauge Finetrax and leave my loco-building ambitions for the next one (ready for 2040 perhaps?). Andreas
  13. Hi all, Does anyone have experience with association (loco) wheels on n gauge code 40 finetrax points? I have read and heard different opinions but never anything truly conclusive. I heard they will drop in the gaps of crossing vees - is that an inconvenient cosmetic problem or would it prevent the loco from running at all? For context: I had initially planned to build my new layout in 2mm, but in my current circumstances it would take me forever to convert enough rolling stock. I simply can't find enough time to justify firing up my soldering iron. Of course there is a faint hope that at some point that will change and I can continue with the long list of locos and stock I want to build. So for now I want to get to a stage where I can run (RTR) trains on good-enough looking track, while not blocking the option to run kit-built locos in the future. If association wheels are not an option are there any alternatives for scratch-built steam locos or kits intended for 2mm? Alternatively, is there anything that can be done to the track to help running RTR and association wheels together (with the right BTB)?
  14. This happens to be a subject I have recently started looking into in a little more detail (some might say a little too much perhaps?). I will try to expand upon the previous answers and summarise the typical workings along with some of the more unusual combinations. While the S&D mainline expresses are well known for their eclectic mix of rolling stock, branch trains were similarly varied, especially after the Western Region took over. As usual with the S&D, rule 1 is rarely needed. There really was a prototype for everything. As Coombe Martin has pointed out already, there were several distinct periods from Nationalisation to closure: 1948 to 1958: LMS non-gangwayed 2-sets, e.g. LMS composite + brake third (period 2 or 3 non-lavatory coaches were the most prolific) 1958 to 1961: Gradual replacement with GWR B-sets. A GWR B-set (E145) is a safe choice. 1962/1963: Anything goes and gradual replacement with corridor stock, e.g. GWR BC (E157) + BT (D132, or Mk1 BSK + CK , or... 1964 to closure: single brake composites: e.g. Hawksworth BCK + SR van From nationalisation to around 1958, virtually all branch trains were made up of LMS 2-sets composed of brake third and composite. A wide range of diagrams from all LMS periods were used, including lavatory-fitted coaches. Occasionally, especially in summer, trains were strengthened with another set or whatever else was available. For anyone interested in running numbers I could find the following in my notes: 1960 P3 C (D1921) M16777M (middle digit is unclear) 1960 P1 CL (D1686) M19090M (not 100% legible) 1959 P3 (D1921) M16753M 1959 P1 C (D1701) M16092M (not 100% legible) 1958 P2 BT (D1735) M20403M 1958 P2 C (D1734) M16399M c1958 P2 BT (D1735) M20558M 1954 P1 BT (D1703) M20253M (not 100% legible) 1951 P1 BT (D1703) M20156 in crimson lake (on the Bridgwater branch) c1950 P1 CL (D1686) M19097 in crimson lake (not 100% legible) 1949 P3 BT (D1907) M20772 (not 100% legible) c1948 P1 BT (D1703) M20150 in crimson lake In the very early days of Nationalisation, the odd Midland coach would also make an appearance. Photographical evidence is sparse though. During the 1950s, the main source of variation were excursion trains and the spare Maunsell rebuilt ex-LSWR coaches normally stabled at Evercreech Jct. Especially in the early 1950s, summer excursions would occasionally lead long trains with mainline stock over the branch. Depending on the origin, they could contain virtually anything seen on the mainline, e.g. Gresley articulated coaches to D171, Maunsell rebuilt ex-LSWR coaches or LMS designs, such as M7674M, a period 1 LMS RTO to D1706. But perhaps the most unusual combination on the branch must have been GWR Prairie tank 5522 with Hawksworth inspection saloon as seen in a photo dated February 1956 in Footplate Over The Mendips (I have always wondered if the caption shouldn't have been 2/58?). While period 1 coaches had disappeared by the mid-1950s, things stayed more or less the same until the takeover by the Western Region. In 1959, we see the first GWR influences on the branch, namely GWR B-Sets started appearing, e.g. W6561W+W6563W (diagram E129) was seen in July 1959. Later also W6216W+W6217W, W6338W (diagram E145). Replacing LMS coaches was a gradual process, which lasted until 1961, when non-gangwayed LMS coaches vanished from service. By that point, most of them had already shown signs of field repairs. Many had lost door vents, now plated over with steel sheets. Incidentally, this helps identify specific coaches. The last of the LMS coaches in continuous use seems to have been a period 2 brake third to diagram D1735. The last photo I could find shows it coupled to a Stanier CK (D1898) on the 4.00pm Highbridge to Templecombe on 2nd September 1961. I am aware of at least one more appearance of an LMS non-corridor coach. In March/April 1962, a LMS Period 3 BT (D1964) was photographed, but it appears this may have been short-lived. In 1961, the first signs of the impending change to gangwayed coaches appeared. In April 1961, a Stanier SO (D1915) ran with what probably was an ex-GWR BC to diagram E147. In the summer of the same year one set comprised an LMS P2 non-gangwayed brake third and a Stanier CK (D1898). There had been the occasional corridor coach before, but as far as I can tell they moved away quickly again. A particularly unusual pairings was recorded in August 1960, when W2659W, a GWR Third to C83, ran with a Mk1 BCK in chocolate and cream and SR Vans behind 4F 44560. By 1962/1963 things were starting to get a little messy - or perhaps I should say varied. GWR, LMS, LNER and BR coaches - gangwayed and non-gangwayed - all started appearing together. Initially, in addition to GWR B-sets now also non-matching two sets were used. Loose brake compos to E147, E157 and E167 were common, e.g. W6218W, W6284W, W6318W, W7086W. Non-gangwayed brake thirds to D132, e.g. W2764W, and D117, e.g. W5870W, as well as thirds, e.g. W5199W (C58), could be seen too. Perhaps worth mentioning is M16855W, a Swindon-built coach for the LMS to LMS diagram D2189, which is essentially the pre-war GWR diagram E156. It was seen in June 1962 on a branch train. Matching B-sets disappeared at the end of 1962. In March and April 1962, a non-gangwayed Thompson lavatory composite was captured running with the aforementioned LMS P3 BT to diagram 1964. From at least 9/62 to early 1963, the Thompson 5-compartment brake third E87217E was resident on the branch, as seen in Sir John Betjeman's film Imagine a Branch Line. There it was coupled to with Mk1 63' suburban compo no. W41047. In 1963, gangwayed stock started taking over. For example, in 4/1963, a set with Stanier BCK (diagram 1850/1939) and Stanier SO M9056M (D1915) was used for a while. Mk1 sets consisting of BSK + CK were also common with sightings from the end of 1962 onwards. So far I have only been able to identify CK M15828. In addition, further GWR-designed corridor coaches appeared. Between 8/63 and 4/64 Collett third (C77) W541W was photographed multiple times. Collett Brake Third (D127) W602W was seen in 10/63. All of these coaches seem to have been coupled to whatever was available, so e.g. a Mk1 suburban composite running with a gangwayed Collett BSK wouldn't be unusual. From 1964 onwards, single Hawksworth brake composites appeared and had become the norm by the time the line closed. Identified numbers include W7383W, W7838W, W7842W, W7844W and possibly W7859W, as well as ex-double-slip coach W7376W, readily identifiable by lack of corridor connections and the additional tanks. BR Mk1 BCKs, e.g. W21063, W21186, and Collett brake composites, e.g. W7366W, were used too but were generally rarer. For a bit of variety, green liveried Bullied semi-open brake third W4320S was used from late 1964, typically together with a BCK and the obligatory van. In later years, most trains conveyed a van, mostly SR Van Cs or Bogie Van Bs. Other common choices were Mk1 BGs, LMS 50ft BGs, e.g. M30775M, M30868M, M31312M and from around 1964 Thompson BZs (D358), e.g. E700649E and E70654E. The practice of combining vans and single BCKs led to a number of interesting formations when sets were combined for operational reasons. For example, there are several photos of an SR van C sandwiched between an Mk1 BCK and a Hawksworth BCK, which in turn was tailed by another van. What still puzzles me, is why vans seem much rarer pre 1963. Perhaps it is just selection bias and up to 1962 most photos were taken at weekends? For photographical evidence I can recommend photos from the footbridge at Highbridge. Most coach sets were stored there, so a single photo can show the composition of perhaps five different sets at once.
  15. Thanks Brian (and Chris). The GER van is indeed a perfect match. I had checked a good number of LMS, GWR and SR books for hints, but looking for an East Anglian vehicle never crossed my mind. Did you or Chris come to any conclusions what the purpose of the depicted train was or when the photo was taken? I would have thought the van's parentage made it an unlikely candidate to be stationed semi-permanently on the S&D and I don't think I've ever seen it in other photos. However, a LMS D1807 does appear several times from 1952 to 1954. While I cannot prove it, I rather think it must be the same coach as gangwayed vestibule coaches were extremely rare on the branch until c1961. Here the photos I've found so far. The dates are rather interesting and could indicate the D1807 was the assigned before the Maunsell Rebuilts and was withdrawn or reassigned shortly after the new coaches arrived. 4th August 1952 at Highbridge (photo by John J Smith, available from https://www.bluebell-railway-museum.co.uk/) 8th August 1953 at Evercreech Jct (Ivo Peters plate 157) 25th April 1954, together with Maunsell rebuilt coaches at Evercreech Jct (Gerald Druce https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=188806 26th April 1954. (Revd Alan Newman, CG Maggs West of England) Undated (Heyday of the S&D) Unfortunately, none show the accompanying van, which must have existed to accommodate the guard. I did, however, find one Ivo Peters photo from 12th July 1952 (plate 102), which shows what could be a van but hides whatever was behind it. The photo Can anyone identify it? Despite the grainy picture, the roof implies it is not an LSWR/SR coach and I think not an LMS-built vehicle or the GER BZ either. In case anyone is interested, the Evercreech spare coaches did occasionally venture over the branch, for example to strengthen Burnham excursion trains. https://railphotoprints.uk/p752970880/h192d988d, taken on the August Bank Holiday in 1956, shows 40569 with what is almost certainly the Evercreech Maunsell rebuilts and a selection of LMS coaches. Pines Express no. 203 contains a similar photo from 30th July 1955 (but with more SR rebuilds).
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