Tony Burgess

On 26/03/2024 at 11:06, adb968008 said:

i never tried emf,  i was also tempted to put my track cleaner in there but was worried its effects to the chip, so I stayed away from doing it.

 

Overall using a Gaugemaster prodigy, it worked ok, it gave me a good turn of speed, which a standard DCC sound loco running DC failed to give. (I have a few sound chips, 31,47, 55,66, Bulleid which I swapped out between harnesses)

 

Thing to remember is dc rules still apply.. isolating track sections etc, as its still a DC layout… and its 1 track/train per DC controller, so if you had a 2 track set up on DC, you need two DCC harnesses / track output (maybe number the chips as 001/002/003 etc, which is a cost, and gets confusing if you scale up. (i have 4 tracks, but only ever tried one and didnt try running a loco from one track to another at speed (which I do sometimes do in DC).

 

You could also have a DPDT switch.. with your DC controller track output in one side, your DCC controller ->DCC Chip -> output Motor wires going into the other and the track exiting the centre pins and thus flip between DCC and DC operation onto the track. Having seen pictures of melting bodies and smouldering track using DCC it felt a little reassuring that only regular 12vdc was going to my track, and “off” still means 0volts at the rail unlike DCC which is always on at max, even if the loco isnt.

 

 

it was a fun exercise, and I did it really for the challenge, its potentially cheap, but my layout was too big to be practical, but a small uncomplex layout I could imagine being ok. Thing is the sound doesnt move with the loco, as the speakers in a static location… (for me Hornys tts whistle of the mn at speed was best). I didnt blow any chips doing it, but I see Jennys potential for it there.

Ultimately I didnt wholesale move to DCC as the chip budget would kill me, and i’d need to rewire most of my layout, not to mention a lifetime of tweaking cvs etc… a simple bluetooth speaker / iphone and some synchronised control of my controler gives me some sounds (and as I recorded them myself, brings memories too), its cheap and i’m not sacrificing vdc for sound instead of movement.

 

Thank you for sharing details of your tests. 

23 hours ago, adb968008 said:

No thats not whats I said.

You wouldnt be using a DC controller at all in a DCC system, but i suspect you know this already.

but we are OT of DCC Sound on DC.

 

but if wanting a budget DCC set up,.. with a DCC controller and harness…

 

You can place the chip and harness wherever you like, under the board, in a station building but I put it next to my controller when i did it.

 

but with regard to…

 

So be sure of your track.

Some discussion here on this..

https://www.slotforum.com/threads/short-circuit-protection-for-track.209983/

But if youve got doubts, then dont do it obviously.

its not much different to buying and using one of these…

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32961034006.html?gatewayAdapt=4itemAdapt
 

and subbing the motor in that cradle, to being wires to the track. (And dont throw that motor away, its the same motor as used in many major brands models).

ultimately what outputs from your chip to the motor is the dc power the motor needs to work… on a normal DC operated layout its DC from controller to motor without the DCC chip. In a DCC operated layout its AC to the chip which is converting to DC for that final output to the motor… but ultimately your DC or DCC fitted loco has the same DC motor inside… its about where it gets its DC from…

 

Should note that any shorts can damage your chips, DCC or DC.. chips are very finicky things Ive found, hence I dont use DCC but a couple of chips for hundreds of locos is better than hundreds of chips for hundreds of locos.

 

Ultimately I believe the clock is ticking on DCC and standard wifi will replace it giving unlimited flexibility rather than tv remote control tech, which brings us back to topic… and why you might want to stay DC but get sound without DCC..

 

admittedly the excitement of DCc sound wore off so I dont use it now, I went to the bluetooth speaker system instead using my own sound using DC whenever I feel the urge and thats basically free….

i was going to write an app for this, but saw Hornby did txs, though i think they missed it.

 

OK I think I've understood.  You are looking at eg using 2 sound decoders - one for diesels & one for steam locos - with DCC controller, for unchipped locos on the layout. 

Interesting, and in many ways attractive.

The main drawback being that all locos of each type sound the same.   I'd soon be frustrated with a DMU or Deltic sounding like a Class 20.  I can also foresee possible problems in "track resistance" affecting eg back emf. 

Have you tested this?  I might. 

On 21/03/2024 at 17:59, adb968008 said:

I think the lack of videos says it all myself.

 

one thing you could do, for local sound is set up a dcc controller, wire it to a chip/harness / speaker next to your controller and output the motor wires to your track. It would eliminate loss from controller to chip, and send the 12v dc onwards.

 

you only need 1 dcc chip, per dc output that way, ok everything will sound the same, unless you swap the chip.

 

Alternatively ive bought a bluetooth speaker, and run sounds from my iphone before now. ive hidden it into a brakevan or a bsk.

It has a mic built in and one occasion a friend called and thought i was on a real train.

 

heres what it looked like whilst still in the box…

 

 

 

and later once extracted from that blue case hidden in a bv.

 

 

most of the recordings i used are from recording from carriage windows over the years between 5-10 mins long from start to stop (Midhants is a perfect line to record this length) and thats about what time I run a single loco on a layout.

 

thats bluetooth is about a fiver on amazon… much cheaper than dcc sound.

Just to be clear - are you suggesting that the motor output from a sound decoder should be wired to the output of an analogue controller? 

I think I must have misunderstood what you suggest which sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.  I can't risk frying even cheap chips! 

I'm fairly sure ESU chips do not carry a reference to the .esux sound file loaded. The file may have been an ESU one S0407 in which case you will find the details and sample sounds on their website. 

You've already checked which sounds respond to the Function calls?  The info on the ESU file will help you with any you don't recognise. 

On 09/02/2022 at 11:40, blanman27 said:

Hi all

 

I have been looking in vain for books, websites etc that cater for advanced DCC topics. I recently modified all my Bachmann class 37's so the rear lights and cab lights are independently controlled, following an excellent article in BRM mag (I think) which gave a step by step guide. I have since been trying to find out how do do this in other loco's but the information just does not seem to be out there.  It would help if detailed wiring diagrams were available for each loco's PCB but they don't seem to be.

 

If anyone can point me to where to find DCC info above the basic level I would greatly appreciate it..

 

Paul B

I too would like to access the main PCBs of locos calling out for improvement to the lighting control!

I've just modified a Bachmann Class66 with the simplest of optocoupler circuits (just 3 wires) to allow use of Aux2 (usually on F2) to switch the directional rear lights in place of taking the loco off track to access the manual switch under the fuel tank.  Only Aux1 was in use, for switching both cab lights.

I feel sure that Bachmann made use of Aux2 on some subsequent designs, but you're after what I've installed and have locos with boards E3297 of which #PCB001 is Rev:B 2008/07/14 or similar era then let me know and I'll see if I can help you.  You probably know of the useful accessories from LaisDCC but so far they have not produced an optocoupler board.

Came across yr post searching for something else, and you've no doubt by now got past the problems.  But maybe not..

A Loksound v3.5 should definately meet yr needs, even though pretty dated now compared with the latest v5s.  With a Lokprogrammer re-mapping Functions on Loksounds is very easy, and if by now you have an interface between JMRI and track you could use JMRI to change CVs on the Lokv3.5.  The Lokv3.5 manual is on the ESU website, and all the info you need will be there, but did you know that you can download the Lokprogrammer programme to your computer and learn quite a lot with that regarding which CVs are used to handle which features?

Loksound v3.5s still command quite a good price secondhand (I love them!), but if you sell one be sure to include the loudspeaker as well as they are 100ohm impedence and no longer as commonly found as they used to be.

Well, although a thread which started rather a long time ago, I have found it useful.  Yes, I too have one of the "unpainted" Dapol wagons to finish (though mine is painted in a rather attractive very dark grey), and it recently came near the top of my "to do" list.

For those still interested, Hornby's "The Collector" Issue 129 Autumn 2021 featured an item on the Stainmore route - Barnard Castle to Kirkby Stephen East - with a photo attributed to D Sutcliffe on 20 Sep 1961 at Kirkby Stephen East yard.  In the photo we see a planked wagon, presumed 20 or 21T, two side doors, and of the NE 8-plank type.  Enquiring of the heritage folk at KSE  I got the impression they might have been unaware of this photo.

What I thought interesting about the wagon was its apparent excellent condition, in fairly fresh BR Grey.  It looks to be where the locos were coaled.

For my part I will probably paint it in grey and give it a P prefix, this being not so difficult when using BR B-number transfers..

On 19/02/2021 at 11:58, melmerby said:

Is it possible that there is debris in the screw hole stopping it fully tightening?

An alternative is the hole hasn't been fully tapped.

I'm asking Hornby to send a screw of correct length first - before removing the present one.  I'm certainly hoping that's the problem and not incorrect tapping of the hole which would require returning the chassis to Hornby..

Having no acknowledgment or reply to my contact with them about this assembly error, I'm about to try phoning them.  I want to get this resolved asap!

I noticed a problem with the chassis on my Terrier and have just contacted Hornby again about getting it put right (having not had a reply the first time sent 2 days ago).

The photo shows it all.  A gear train side plate is not correctly secured - and can be seen to be misaligned - due I hope to a screw of incorrect length having been used.  Yes, the side plate was loose enough to be easily pushed back into the chassis, which probably means that it could come right out when running and cause damage.

I am asking Hornby to mail me a replacement screw of correct type in the hope that rectifies the problem.  Meantime re-assembly is on hold.

You might want to check your own model is OK in this respect, as it may have been more than just a one-off problem.

12 hours ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

The body taken apart to access the cab detail to paint parts, and fit the crew..l

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have I understood from these photos that you cut off the plate beneath the Firebox hole?  Presumably to facilitate fitting the crew.

(BTW there's a recently started thread specifically about fitting crew to this loco)

 

 

More details, etc. here. 

 

 

 

Timely, as I'm just fitting loco crew myself.  P & D Marsh ref PDZ19 provides two crews, and I may be using the driver from one and fireman from the other.  They are cast metal and come painted.
There's not a lot of space, and you have to set the fireman in a position such that his shovel doesn't foul a 'plate' below the firebox hole when the body is replaced (actually, as supplied, the shovel blade is probably too large for a Terrier!).  I'm hoping  that I've judged things OK when it comes to re-assembling mine.
I had to carefully file some of the feet to obtain these results.  Next job is to paint the resulting bright exposed metal.
Being quite a heavy metal, the crew are adding a little weight behind the rear driver.  I may compensate the loco balance by adding lead in the space above the DCC-ready socket & blanking plug area, as I'm not planning to chip this loco just now.  The combined extra weight may not be much, but will aid traction on gradients which is important on our layout.

On 06/02/2021 at 05:29, Jack P said:

Has anyone fit a 6 pin Gaugemaster Ruby Chip to one of these terriers, or know if one will fit? It measures 11 x 10 x 3 (mm).

I've got my Terrier open at the mo as I'm fitting driver & Fireman.  These photos with dimensions should help you.  There is no room forward of the Hornby Blanking Plug but some room above it and the socket..

On 08/01/2021 at 23:47, melmerby said:

My replacement Hornby Terrier from TMC has arrived back.

I must say it's one of the smoothest running locos I have found.

After a few minutes running in I was able to get it to run on just 1.5v pure DC, which must be the lowest of any loco I have had.

It still had a fair turn of speed at 12v.

 

Just got to fit a decoder now, it'll be a Lenz Silver Mini +.

Not sure how to do it, I have both direct and loose wire versions but the socket is backwards from what I can see in the instructions

I could use a wire in one (currently devoid of wires) with a plug or bend the pins on the plug and also on the pin fitted decoder and solder them together.

Jenny K has done a video - on the Collector's Edition Brighton Works model? - or maybe on LaisDCC decoders? - in which she looks at DCC chip fitting on Hornby's Terrier.  Space is very tight.  Mel_H posted 29 Dec and used a 6-pin Zimo.  Be sure to compare the dimensions of your Lenz chip and if in doubt follow in Mel_H's footsteps!  Wouldn't it be helpful if there was a list of suitable decoders for the Hornby Terrier - maybe even Hornby themselves..

Well, I have only dipped into these pages every so often, and this issue must surely already have been mentioned - BUFFER HEADS.

I watched Jennifer Kirk's review and frankly couldn't believe what I was seeing in this regard.  A concave-headed buffer.  What on earth were Hornby thinking!

Maybe the sample they sent to Jenny was in some ways "pre-production", but talk about crude and toy-like.  But I don't think it was pre-production, as I've since viewed the videos of examples others have received.

It beggars belief..

10 minutes ago, mozzer models said:

on the Hornby film is says the battery last around 200 hour if I remember righty

Yes, just over a week when left on, as has been pointed out by someone else!

On 05/01/2021 at 12:44, Mr chapman said:

The fact is if the hattons model is better (lighting and other niceties) they don't need to worry. The Hornby model will sell well as it can reach other shops that perhaps the hattons model won't. Pity they can't use the efe distribution route as that bridge is burnt. Good luck to both as I'm sure they'll be in profit. 

Yes, the approach to coach lighting is an important distinction.  As far as I understand the Hattons coaches come with track pickup via the wheels and a DCC socket (& presumed plug for use on DC), whereas Hornby have innovated with a battery + magnetic switch.  Pricing for 'with lighting' coaches an additional approx £6.

I can see modellers wanting lit coaches going in several additional ways - 2-wire connections between coaches for a rake of Hattons on DCC so as to avoid the cost of a decoder for each coach, and adding wheel pickups and a full wave rectifier (and possibly a voltage stabiliser) to each Hornby coach.

The battery option of the Hornby coaches makes for great play value for children, and I hope their parents start buying 2032 cells in quantity as I imagine the lights will often be left switched on inadvertantly!

.. wire a decoder.  Hornby R7274 4 Pin Decoder - what a disgrace!

Well, I was also going to post that picture and ask "Would you buy one?"

It beggars the imagination that the retailer concerned would actually post such a picture.  Unbelievable..  Do Hornby prefitted locos come with decoders like this?  Only one thing to do - rewire it yourself and possibly make use of the other capabilities available eg forward & reverse lights.

I've just been updating my knowledge of DXDC chips, and the browser brought up your post.  I'm wondering if you ever got this sorted.  And did you try the Bachmann China site for the loco instruction sheet, assuming one didn't come with the loco?

Fantastic job, guys - thank you!

Well, BRM Express has invited readers to join in on this topic, which I have been following with interest already.  Though I havn't caught up with the last 24hrs comment.

Good for Hornby!  May their 2019 choices bring commercial reward as well pleasure to modellers.

I'll be 80 in a couple of weeks time, and so you'll understand that I'm thinking more of thinning out my collection than adding to it.  But, being primarily a Southern fan as far as passenger workings are concerned, I may well decide to buy a Bulleid shortie set.  Having upgraded my rake of Bachmann 63' stock - flush windows, bogie running boards - it's unlikely that I'll replace them with the forthcoming re-tooled versions.  I'll need to take a close look at Hornby's treatment of the window vents, though, as something looked odd to me about them on one of their recent releases.

Most of my locos are 2 rail Hornby Dublo with some later Hornby. In fact it was my intention to collect at least one of each of Hornby Dublo locos and rolling stock.

I never caught the DCC bug but I do appreciate that the sound makes a great difference to operating a layout.

 

I am now retired and do not have loads of money to spend now, but I have considered buying some Lenz loco decoders but as I understand it the basic loco decoder does not produce sound, but control only. Hornby appear to sell the TTS sound decoders for various locos, but my HD locos draw 600 – 750ma even after remagnetising -too much for the Hornby TTS. I take it I would have to purchase these as well and piggy back them to the control decoder? If so does it have to be a Hornby control decoder or can the TSS sound be fitted with any other decoder.

 

I have also seen some American model rail forums where sound decoders are available to operate off the original 2 rail DC controlled layout - this may be my preferred route – are there any UK suppliers of DC (analogue) sound decoders?

So I decided to check the loco & motor wiring on a 2-rail HD loco - in this case BR(S) "R1" 0-6-0 tank model 2206 dating from the early 1960s (only 55+ years since purchase, and still on our layout).

Electrically it should be an easy hardwire DCC conversion.  If the photo uploads correctly you can see -

     A  a tag connecting to the chassis (which is Left Rail)

     B  a green wire from the Right Rail wheel pick ups

     C  the brush spring arm which is already insulated from a motor brush

     D  the brush spring arm which will require insulation from the other motor brush

I don't know how common this design was amongst HD 2-rail locos, or when it was introduced.  I doubt the HD/Wrenn models had different motors installed.

Most of my locos are 2 rail Hornby Dublo with some later Hornby. In fact it was my intention to collect at least one of each of Hornby Dublo locos and rolling stock.

I never caught the DCC bug but I do appreciate that the sound makes a great difference to operating a layout.

 

I am now retired and do not have loads of money to spend now, but I have considered buying some Lenz loco decoders but as I understand it the basic loco decoder does not produce sound, but control only. Hornby appear to sell the TTS sound decoders for various locos, but my HD locos draw 600 – 750ma even after remagnetising -too much for the Hornby TTS. I take it I would have to purchase these as well and piggy back them to the control decoder? If so does it have to be a Hornby control decoder or can the TSS sound be fitted with any other decoder.

 

I have also seen some American model rail forums where sound decoders are available to operate off the original 2 rail DC controlled layout - this may be my preferred route – are there any UK suppliers of DC (analogue) sound decoders?

Hi Captain Kirk.  To answer yr last question - yes there are sound decoders which will provide excellent results on analogue DC layouts.  They are designed for both DCC and DC, and are found amongst the decoders with the very best features.  Leading brands for which sounds of UK locos are available are ESU Loksound and Zimo, and there may be others with which I am not familiar.  Many UK suppliers but do your research regarding the quality of the sound projects before shortlisting for purchase, and maybe then write to say that you intend to operate on DC.

What will you get, and what will you miss, on DC?  DCC controllers offer you a range of Function buttons which allow you to activate specific sounds like the whistle or horn.  Some projects feature as many as 15 or even 20 Function-called sounds, and I wonder how many are actually used in practice.  Your DC controller has no means of triggering these Function calls.

What you get on both DCC and DC are the basic motive power and braking sounds - varying with speed and load - plus Random sounds such as water injector, coal shovelling, etc as steam loco examples.

The technology exists for "superimposing" DCC Function calls over a DC supply though the special boxes for accomplishing this may only work for certain decoders.  An example would be DCMaster for the US "Blueline" locos which also addressed ESU Loksound ver3.5 decoders but not the subsequent ver4 (and presumed the imminent ver5) decoders.  DCMaster allowed activation of Horn/Whistle, Bell, an Auxiliary output, and Sound Volume on the then-customary US Function call allocations.  You could enquire of Gaugemaster as they may have a more modern unit capable of "true" simulated DCC Function call on DC.

Final comment.  UK loco sound projects are sold by the various suppliers in such a way that elements are copywrite protected.  That means that some things cannot be changed except by the supplier holding the original project file.  Depending on your skills and inclination you might wish to incorporate a flickering firebox light to accompany coal shovelling within Random sounds.  Request that from the outset, and you are future-proofing your purchase for future owners as well as yourself - any additional cost should be trivial as it is so simply accomplished.

The difficulties of converting a 2-rail Wrenn Pacific has been mentioned.  I have a feeling that at least in their closing years HD and HD/Wrenn locos were constructed such that a DCC conversion was easier.

488 was never used by the ministry and remained as is in LSWR (though somewhat faded) until sold to the EKR in the early 20s. Why Stephens brought her is a mystery to this day as the loco was far from useful on that line. Mind you he picked some old locos in his time.

Using both the BR Database and Wikipedia, and we know that Wiki is not always reliable, I came up with the following -

1914 Became 0488

1917 sold to Ministry of Munitions

 went to EKR in WW1?

1946 re-purchased by Southern Rlwy and numbered 3488

so someone out there believes 488 was used by a military Ministry.  I would think if this was true, she would have most likely been painted in a drab colour of some kind.

Does anyone know where Oxford sourced the sound for their DCC sound versions?  I have been puzzling over the Air Pump sound which randomly plays and have wondered if they used the IOW Adams O2?  I dont think thats authentic for the Radial, so trying to work out how to disable it. Any ideas?

I'd like to learn more about this sound project, having just purchased one.  On the ESU Loksound Lokprogrammer the sound descriptions all come up in German, so I'm wondering if ESU selected the sounds from their fairly extensive library of European sound files.

But my immediate need is to sort out why the volume set as maximum on CV63 is far too low - that's why I'm exploring this forum now to see if I can get a clue from others who had the same experience!