NFWEM57

Diverging Switch Rail, Closure rail and Check Rails - Assembly Complete The diverging closure rail and switch rail have been fitted as well as the two check rails. Note the two stage taper on the check rails. Overall view. Alongside a recently complet bullhead B9 crossover. Note the thicker bearers and longer wing/check rails. A few modifications to assembly, for scratch building, required: Assemble the common crossing separately in a jig soldering the crossing vee and wing/check rails together using thin copper strip place to avoid the bearers. A jig rather like that sold by the EMGS will need to be manufactured. Soldered at 34/35 (the neck), 35/36 the crossing nose and 38/39 the check rails. This still allows baseplates to be fitted but provides the alignment accuracy required before assembly. Curve the diverging check rail to match the diverging stock rail. Use regular pandrol baseplates at bearers 15~18 and use 0.4mm thick pads to mount the C&L baseplate's onto. Use pandrol baseplates for the check rail area and use and modified code 83 rail upside down, one side made flush with the web, the other side with the head removed leaving just the foot (now at the top) as the check rail edge. Glued into a ABS plastic holder the, the prototype ones are quite substantial, the assembly can then be secured using MEK. Whilst a test bogie has run through freely aside from a small issue with the common crossing on the diverging route, this first attempt will not be used on any layout, the second version will be. I will be using British Finescale Tie Bars, Wayne kindly sent me some, and, given the more fragile nature of the code 60 rail, will be fitting 2 (as per the prototype), the one nearest the toe driven. Was it worth it, yes. Because it saved a lot of filing and I discovered that very few new additional baseplate types are required, possibly just 2; the shallow depth slider baseplate and the shallow depth rail pandrol baseplate. And that means scratch building modern turnouts can become a reality. The plethora of chairs required for bullhead turnout are simply not required for a flat bottom turnout. Actually, having undertaken the Normal Solomon track building course, it appear, in practice, not many are really required for bullhead scratch building either..!!!! Any constructive comments most welcome. Thanks for the feedback and reactions thus far. Patrick

Common Crossing, Straight Closure and Straight Switch Rail Fitted. Well a few lesson learnt around the common crossing area, not as simple as bullhead but have solutions going forward. Discovered th etip of the crossing vee was misaligned after fitting, have solution for that as well for this example. Unlike for bullhead, the diverging stock rail must be fitted and secured before the switch rail is fitted, I gauged off the wing rails then followed gauged off the diverging closure rail on the template, it worked. Usual electrical isolation at the wing rail. I tapered the heel end of the straight closure rail to match the width of the switch rail, possibly should have tapered the foot as well. The original slide chairs have 0.5mm thick slide plates fitted on top to raise the height for the code 60 rail. I know, they are white, i couldn't find any 0.5 x 2.5mm strip in black. And they do not fit using butanone, slow zap was used. The code 60 rail undercuts the code 83 rail at the toe as can be seen. With a tie bar fitted the blade will fit snugly under the head of the stock rail. So, a few errors along the way but a few months research and design work and the concept has been proven. Bespoke shallow depth slide chair baseplate's and transition area baseplates could easily be 3d printed, ditto some items around the common crossing. In fact, all that is required are maybe 3 types of baseplates to add to the PECO pandrol baseplate: Shallow Depth Slide Baseplate Shallow Depth Pandrol Baseplate for the fixed/transition area. Combined Stock and Check Rail baseplate (using check rail as per the prototype made from flat bottom rail) Now to finish the other side, add the check rails, wire up, strengthen and correct in places. I will modify the design in a couple of places and manufacture another before making up a test board with concrete track to test the turnout with a range of locos. Not sure, but I think I might be the first to have done this..! Patrick

Straight Switch Blade Once again, no jigs, all by hand and eye..! The first of two shallow depth switch blades made from code 60 rail. The side opposite the running face has the foot and head filed back to taper over the required 46mm of planing length. The head of the rail on the running face is filed back to taper over 46mm. Finally, the top of the rail head is filed back to form a vertical taper some 23mm long. The code 60 rail (should) fit snugly inside the web of the flat bottom rail as can be seen below, Difficult to hold the two rail together in one's fingers whilst trying to get a macro shot..! Hopefully, the concept is clear. Once the ordered parts arrive, I'll test fit this before I make another. Might need fine tuning. I may attempt to mill (using a pillar drill with a compound table) another one. The hand made one took an hour. Milling one would take minutes provide the rail can be held firmly enough. Patrick

Common Crossing Manufactured the 2 wing/check rails with the usual bends as we have with bullhead but with the inner faces of the check rails tapered as per the prototype. Positioned the crossing vee with 4 pandrol baseplates where the vee is clear of the check rails and a cut down slide baseplate on the inside of the vee. The wing/check rail are shown in place but have yet to be secured. I am waiting for a some additional parts which will allow me to set the distance between the vee and check rails at 1mm. I will be using slide baseplates to hold the check rails in position and proved support for both vee and check rails. The wing rails will be held in place with pandrol baseplates, obviously cosmetic only at the neck. The taper on the check rails can bee seen on the final image. Once the parts arrive in the next day or so I can finish the common crossing and the rest of the turnout is relatively straightforward, aside form the switch blade profiling which I will start now whilst there is a break in assembly. Patrick

Crossing Vee, First Attempt for Flat Bottom Rail There being no suitable filing jigs for flat bottom rail, the crossing Vs were manufactured by hand using the Gauge O Guild method (https://www.gaugeoguild.com/manual/02_2_6_Pointwork.pdf) as a guide. I bent the last 6mm of rail and more or less followed the guide. I filed a small recess in the point rail for the splice rail to 'slot' into. A few pictures before, during and after assembly. The foot of the flat bottom rails on the running edges near the crossings nose did need to be trimmed back so that the wing and check rails have the required 1mm clearance. I will trim the vee ends to place them in the middle of two sleepers with the nose of the crossing vee correctly placed. Hand building the crossing vee is not ideal and milling the blades would be a better option, much faster and more accurate. The solder jig needs a slight modification, the clamps need to be seperate. On to the wing and check rails and once I have manufactured them I can work out how I am going to secure the vee and wing/check rails given my limited baseplate options...!

I came across and interesting archived thread converining turnout tools. What attracted my attention was the crossing vee soldering jig on the first page. I decided to extend the concept to cover both LH and RH cross vees and also allow for bullhead and flat bottom. The overall cost for my 'delux' version, ordinary machine screws could have been used to reduce cost, was £20. The images below show a 1:9 crossing vee on the bullhead side. The final images show how flat bottom rail is catered for and the jig on its own. If there is any interest I will upload a note on the design and construction as a pdf. Patrick

While Waiting for the Butanone.... One thing needed for this and future turnout projects is a crossing vee soldering jig. I did see one on an older RM Web thread but thought I would upgrade it a little and give it the ability to handle both bullhead and flat bottom rail. The 2mm holes were a bit small for hand tapping so i used a spiral point tap with a tap follower mounted in a pillar drill. Jig now ready to solder crossing V. No flat bottom filing jig so it will be by 'eye'; perhaps another project for the future. First images with a bullhead 1:9. And with flat bottom track (not yet filed) and finally, the jig on its own. Cost about £20 to make. If you use plain machine screws it would be cheaper. Butanone arrived yesterday, new bottle style so will need to make a new anti knock over holder..! Or just decant into the old bottle. Patrick

Having just sold an upgraded original HST to an Australian customer, the postage was pretty steep; £30..! A pack of 48 fishplates is £6.00 but the pack would not be letter size unless some kind soul took them off the sprues for you and placed them in a little plastic bag to mail in a standard envelope. Postage is around £2.50 from UK to Australia and then there is the cost of shipping from the society to the kind soul in the UK, overall cost around £12 for one pack, £18 for two or £30 for 4.

Update - Stock Rail Fitted, Shallow Depth Switch Rail assessment. I have laid out the bearers and, with the remaining butanone, fitted the flat bottom straight stock rail. I used a length of 15mm x 2mm of aluminium bar to ensure alignment of the straight side of the turnout. A 10mm width length of double sided tape hold the bearers in position. PECO plain baseplates and slide base plates are fitted to straight stock rail aside from 4 of the 8 bearers which will hold the check rail. The moment of truth, has the theory been correct... Yes..! The shallow depth switch rail represented by PECO Code 60 flat bottom rail is 0.5mm lower when resting on the slide chairs. The PECO Pandrol baseplates are too wide for Code 60 rail but the C&L base plates provided with C&L concrete bearers are narrower and a good fit and also raise the code 60 rail by around 0.5mm. For this first attempt, the C&L baseplates will sit on top of the 4 PECO slide plates at positions 15~18. The slide plates at positions 5~14 will have new more representative slide plates, 0.5mm thick, sitting on top of the existing slide plates; in the prototype they look like plain slabs of metal - bit plasticard will do. The images below show the two rails side by side and the area where the transition from code 60 to code 83 takes place. The outer face of the closure rail heads (code 83) will be tapered to match the width of the code 60 rail. For most of the length of the code 60 rail it is planed so it will not look too odd. Good progress so far but a few observations and tips. The PECO plastic does require a bit if holding in place once the solvent is applied and use a fin pair of tweezer to move base plates into position. The PECO pandrol baseplates are very fragile, taper the foot of the rail slightly to aid fitting. The C&L baseplate are very fiddly to fit, once again, taper the rail. The next steps will be making the crossing CV, check and wing rails. In addition, some modifications are required to existing 3 point and roller gauges, the code 83 rail head is slightly thicker than code 75, as well as the manufacture of bespoke roller gauges for the switch rail area, one side will be code 60, the other code 83. Patrick

Another item you can use are Exactoscale scale fishplates. I found everything else like the legacy rail joiners or PECO insulated joiners too big. The ExactoScale fishplates have an insulating section in the middle. Simply slide over the web of both rails. They look like this (below) in situ. This is a B9 crossover, the first I have every scratch built, which I have just completed for my test track and is awaiting painting. The shiny stuff is MEK/Butanone. You may need to secure one end in place with a tiny spot of glue. I now use these fishplates on the British Finescale turnouts. Regards, Patrick

Update - Construction Commenced Final Template generated and bearers cut to size. First 4 bearers on the left are PECO IL-111 and the remaining 41 bearers are PECO IL-114. Both are around 1.25mm thick IL-111 are 34mm long and 3.4mm wide whilst IL-114 are 3.9mm wide and a maximum of 88mm long. The longest timber for the this B8VS is around 68mm, it will not be part of a crossover on the test layout. The red rectangles between the rails are spacer or distance blocks. Next steps will be to lay the bearers on the template and then fix the straight stockrail. Unlike building a bullhead turnout, all chair plates for the stock rail will be fitted including slide plates. One small roadblock on progress, my bottle of Butanone has evaporated as the cap had not been secured last October. Just waiting for a resupply from C&L. I may have just enough for the straight stock rail. Patrick

Update Study / Workshop complete and organising all but complete. Did consider using Templot to make the template but too many things to adjust, move and hide so used the drawing tools in MS Word. Have been using it for years and it is amazing what you can do with a little thought. I drew sections 5 sleepers wide at 5 times scale for accuracy and then reduced to size and linked them together. Bearer spacing (as they are called for Flat Bottom turnouts) is 710mm for the prototype with a width of 290mm, so 9.32mm apart and 3.8mm wide (same as PECO timbers). The turnout is some 400mm in length and so I saved as a Pdf and used poster printing option(available in the pdf viewer) to print out on an A4 laser printer. Amazingly it is quite accurate with the distance between tracks of just over 18mm. The template is just a guide for bearer positioning and which baseplates to use. All the data, vast amounts of it, came from the latest PWI manuals. The common crossing dimensions have been adjusted for a 1mm flangeway. The first 4 bearers are plain with V baseplates followed by stock rail in full height rail and shallow height switch rails. Transition from shallow to full height rail occurs between the orange and blue sleeper. Not a lot of filing required, just the crossing V and the switch rail planing. I'll begin assembly with laying the bearers and fitting the straight stock rail in a few days time. Patrick

Yep, I have no control..! However, i am working on a B8 flat bottom vertical shallow depth turnout design. We have had the prototype for 40 + years..! Separate thread.

Update Am busy updating my study / workshop so hence the quiet period - need a bit more desk space for FB track amongst other things. I have also started a paper on the subject, currently at 12 pages for the introduction, prototype, model theory and required tools stages. Did think of calling it the Wright Brothers guide to Flat Bottom Turnouts. Having attended a few club meetings of late, I am amazed at how many established modellers still think that FB modelling is not required because so much bullhead still exists on the prototype. Bit of Egyption mythology methinks..! de Nile. How do we attract younger modellers if we are focusing on track that was no longer used or replaced with new design over 50 years ago? New image rolling stock is everywhere, but not new image track. And for those who say that the track is not what people look at, why do C&L sell 2, 3 and 4 bolt chairs..!? It is, and will be, a difficult transition, but a necessary one. Patrick

I recently tried to remotor a Lima HST using the latest Railroad Bogie - but for EM and and metal tyres - it was a failure, could barely pull itself. The motor in the bogie is small in comparison to those in the Class 37/47 railroad bogies. I did convert a Class 37 using a full size CD motor (more space with EM wheels so a larger 12V motor can fit) and 2 Class 47 using modified railroad bogies with Alan Gibson wheels and all 3 worked reasonably well. I converted one of my LIma HSTs using a central drive motor two shaft driven bogies from the full fat Hornby HST - massive drawbar pull as you would expect; seperate thread on this My 3 remaining HSTs will be getting the same treatment. When converting to all metal tyres the big issue is weight. Provided the motor is powerful enough, there is around 70~75% conversion of weight to drawbar pull for wheels with traction tyres falling to 20~30% for all metal wheels. And it is weight on the driven bogie, not overall loco weight, that is important. So, the HST has 410g on two driven bogies and I measured a drawbar pull of 120g - around 29% conversion. For the Class 37, CD motor with Ultrascale wheels, only 40g drawbar pull was achieved whilst for the two Class 47, Railroad Motor with Alan Gibson wheels, the drawbar pull was 45g. The key is weight but too much weight overpowers the motor, too little reduces drawbar pull - for a a single driven boge aim for 200~250g over the bogie with an overall loco weight of 400~450g. It is a compromise. I might try 2 railroad bogies in my next conversion - requires a bit of engineering work on the railroad chassis where the dummy bogie sits but it will provide double the traction. For the surplus Lima bogies I will also try the double drive approach on some, again, a bit of engineering work on the original Lima chassis. Neither will use the cut and shut approach to chassis modification. Of course the simple answer might be to just buy the full fact versions of the class 37s and 47s, but I enjoy undertaking the conversions and it gives some reasonable models a new lease of life, indeed Hornby still use the Lima body shells. No issue with pick ups, all bogies have them, as all are DCC (ESU decoders) with bespoke (distributed) stay alives. Hope this helps. Of course, if you stick to using traction tyres, no problems, other than dirty track..!

Amazing. When I was train spotting as a kid in 1965-67 at Taunton I only saw one steam train - Evening Star hauling freight through at speed. Platform was packed with spotters Otherwise it was Hymeks, Warships, Westerns and Class 117s/121s with one spotting each of a Peak and Class 47 in the 3 years. Then I moved away further west where few trains ran.

Happy New Year..! Santa delivered the PWI book on FB switches and crossing and an interesting 'read' it has been. (The one issue is the binding which has already failed - so a 3 ring binder will be used to house it) From the history section it seems that vertical design flat bottom designs for turnouts came into being in 1967 and were by adopted by all regions by 1970, over half a century ago. A further major change came about in 1987 with the introduction of shallow depth switches which eliminated the need to plane the stock rails to accommodate the switch rails. These have been in use for nearly 40 years. A reduced height switch rail is used, asymmetrical in profile, which is placed on a raised slide plate; drawing is worth a thousand words - pandrol and other fastenings not shown for clarity. At the heel end of the switch rail there is a forged transition section which expands the switch rail back to full height, another drawing. Of course, for modelling, the rail profile is not available and such a transition is not possible. However, PECO code 60 rail can be used as a reduced height substitute and for the most of its length is planed, yet another drawing The transition section can be made by tapering the end of the full height closure rail and joining it to the code 60 switch rail with brass fishplates. For the slide chairs, the PECO ones are used with a 0.4mm thick pad paced over the existing pad which locks the stock rail in place and acts as a surface for the code 60 rail. Of course, suitable slide pads could be 3D printed but I am not there yet. The only other issue is suitable pandrol baseplates for the thinner base of the code 60 rail. Again, probably a 3d printing solution. The next task is to create a bespoke template in TEMPLOT to reflect the geometry of the modern turnouts; different sleeper/timber spacings and sizes. Had a few attempts but get double sleepers around the crossing V areas. Check rails are easy as they come in 4 standard sizes whilst the common crossings are pretty much a standard size (aside from the Vee rails) until the much larger turnouts sizes. As starter, I may construct a B8 turnout using a standard TEMPLOT FB template as a guide to see if the dual rail approach works. Of course, the choice of baseplates is very limited but perhaps something 3D printing can overcome. Another skill set to learn..! Patrick

Happy New Year Wayne, hope you have a fantastic 2024 and thank you for what you have delivered for us thus far.

Hi, EM gauge. The more I mull over using code 60 for the shallow depth asymmetric switch blades, the more it seems it might be a reasonable solution. I can modify the PECO slide baseplates by adding a 0.3~0.4mm thick additional pad on top which serves 2 purposes, it raised the slide pad area to match the code 60 rail and also locks in the stock rail. The prototype slide trackpads look like this (link to honour copyright): https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdp-railsystems.com%2Ffileadmin%2Fmediamanager%2Frailsystems%2FProdukte%2FSlide-Chair-Plates-2.jpg&tbnid=lzLBQ-fgj8o_WM&vet=12ahUKEwjX4OmhpbKDAxUWVKQEHRgGDf8QMygAegQIARAy..i&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdp-railsystems.com%2Fen%2Fproducts%2Fslide-chair-plates&docid=L-AinEnpetk_TM&w=2000&h=1333&q=shallow depth slide chair plate&ved=2ahUKEwjX4OmhpbKDAxUWVKQEHRgGDf8QMygAegQIARAy In use in practice: https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fjournals.sagepub.com%2Fcms%2F10.1177%2F0954409715624723%2Fasset%2Fimages%2Flarge%2F10.1177_0954409715624723-fig3.jpeg&tbnid=l4vZbi2CGZp7_M&vet=12ahUKEwi0t5O3pbKDAxU6f6QEHS93CgUQMygAegUIARCZAQ..i&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fjournals.sagepub.com%2Fdoi%2F10.1177%2F0954409715624723&docid=VZ9ehqUWvQ4SAM&w=1700&h=1057&q=railway shallow depth slide baseplate&ved=2ahUKEwi0t5O3pbKDAxU6f6QEHS93CgUQMygAegUIARCZAQ I'll just add 0.3~0.4mm thick pad on the existing PECO slide chairs to take up the height difference. After the slide chairs the rail revert to full height code 82.

Thank you very much for sharing the information on C&L Code 82 and on mechanical wear and tolerances. I am aiming to scratch build, as best I can with the very limited components available, flat bottom turnouts as close to prototype as possible. Having researched a little more on the prototype it would be ideal if all the components to permit the scratch building of turnouts with shallow depth asymmetric switches rails - it would have saved a lot of filing...! But it seems I must implement something akin to BS113A Vertical or, more likely, its metric equivalent CEN56E1, with the available components. I doubt that reduced height asymmetric switch rail will ever be manufactured (even though it is in widespread use on the prototype) which somewhat negates manufacturing the relevant slide plates (which could easily be manufactured). I did mull over using Code 60 FB rail, suitably filed, as the asymmetric switch rail and Code 82 for the stock rails but there are no suitable slide baseplates to match although existing PECO ones could be modified. Perhaps another 'turnout in a bag' idea for C&L for shallow depth FB turnouts with very little filing required...! Ah well, a compromise (with a lot of milling or filing) it will have to be for me at least. On photography, another pastime of mine, I watched a friends business close down as the internet took hold. People would try (in the shop) before they bought (on line). I still support my remaining local photo stores by buying in person or via their on line portals.

Thank you. I guess I will have to see how the 2 types line up in practice for the model.

Thank you, and I appreciate and understand your comments about the retail business. My comments were not a criticism of either retailer, just an update to an earlier post in this thread regarding the dimensions of suitable FB rail. It would seem the only way to get the dimensions of rail is, as I have done, buy some and measure it...! I ruled out that using that option across the board because of the high cost, potential waste and because before I part with hard cash, I usually like to know exactly what I am buying to avoid disappointment. I guess I am therefore one of those annoying people who, for good reason, wants to discuss things before getting their wallet out..! Thus far on this FB voyage of discovery I have had to purchase most components blind and although there has been some waste, fortunately it is not as much as it could have been; eBay might allow me to recover some of that wasted outlay. Hopefully, what I share here will contribute in some small way to allow others to make a more informed decision on going down the FB path and/or what to purchase. At the moment there is precious little information out there; that i could find at least.

Well, Santa has delivered the PWI book on Flat Bottom Rail Switches and Crossing and it is very enlightening. The UK seemingly went through a period of continuous development around the mid 1960s to 1970s before largely settling on what we have now. Thankfully the switch and crossing designs are vertical which means the only available baseplates are suitable. Appendix 10 of the volume has all the necessary detail of vertical rail design switches and crossings to allow specific templates to be made including setting out detail, timbering and baseplates required. The challenge will be removing the material from the rail for switch blades and crossings. The basic crossings Vs are simpler than the switch blades but the wing and check rails add to the complexity. For the switch blades I might need to make a jig to curve and hold the rail before it is filed or milled to the required planing radius. Something similar will be required for the wing and check rails. EMGS rail will be used as it is the closest in size to the prototype. No feedback from Marcway or C&L on their rail dimensions. One final design consideration is the transition from the vertical of the turnout to 1:20 inclination of plain track which is undertaken within one sleeper spacing on the prototype, but obviously this affects the gauge. Might need to put a slight twist in the various rails before turnout assembly and gauge accordingly. Another issue is is the connection of FB rail on a mainline turnout to bullhead rail on a siding or branch line. Brass fishplates soldered in place might be a solution. First tasks before the attempt at at turnout is a modified set of 3 point and roller gauges followed by the design of a filing jig for switch blades and crossing Vs. Conveniently, check rails come in just 2 standard sizes..!

Flat Bottom C&L planed blades?

Alas, I model in EM so not a lot of good..! So for EM /P4 Ultrascale is the only option for wheel sets with gears on the back of the wheel. However, for my OO gauge refurb and sell they will be ideal. Thanks for the heads up.