Andy Keane

42 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

 

Wow! Thats terrific Andy.

Thanks Neal, very kind - and just for amusement it has lights and interior furniture with a couple of old biddies and a schoolboy inside, not that anyone is likely ever to see them!

12 hours ago, Pete Haitch said:

Helston Flora Day is usually held on 8th May,

Ah yes - an excuse for an excursion train!

Andy

I have just about finished the villa in Godolphin Road. Its proven to be a lot of work for a building that is almost off scene in one corner of the model:

5 hours ago, Pete Haitch said:

five coach trains organised for Wednesday

Did something special happen on Wednesdays? I am keen on a mixed rake of old stock though.

On my layout the houses in Station Road would have to be low relief in some form. None would fit entirely on my boards. No 7 would be mostly there, 5 & 6 just half there and only the fronts of 2 - 4. No 1 would be entirely missing. And given they are on the front edge I am not sure how much they will add for the viewer who would simply be faced with their blank rear faces. But on the other hand Station Road looks rather bare without them. More decisions.

On an entirely separate direction I am now looking at the buildings at the bottom of Helston's Station Road. Numbers 1-7 were built at about the same time as the railway, number 7 is closest to the station and is an elegant double fronted detached villa with bay windows, numbers 5 and 6 are a pair of semi-dethatched villas, again with bays, while numbers 1-4 are a terrace of four smaller houses. All still survive, pretty much unaltered. I am wondering if the detached house was for the Station Master and the lesser ones for other members of the station staff? (nb these numbers are what Google claims but it may well be that they are really numbers 3-9, based on the other buildings!)

3 hours ago, Pete Haitch said:

Just a stray thought -  does the WTT show any express services passing through Camborne around those time? If so, could it have been simpler to run back to Gwinear Road rather than having to ensure there was space for the SRM (and trailer) in the goods siding? Would it have even been acceptable to treat passengers to a visit to the goods yard?

 Was there a difference between Winter and Summer ; e.g. a SRM service being replaced with loco hauled service offering greater capacity in the same way as services were strengthened on May 8th?  Were there less SRM services in winter in general freeing up time for an extra trip to Helston as a replacement to an under-used loco hauled service?

Pete

Many thanks - your thoughts are very helpful. A couple of related ideas on this:

1) Mike @The Stationmaster suggests a possible explanation for the additional shuttle trips between Redruth & Camborne was they may have been the GWR's answer to the  Camborne & Redruth Tramways link between the two towns which had opened in 1902 using electric tramcars.

2) If the SRM was stabled at Helston overnight as well as a trad loco, the Helston timetable could then have been operated while leaving that other loco based in Helston for shunting duties - perhaps as you say there was need to strengthen things in the Summer such as for the broccoli traffic - it has been said elsewhere that at its height this trade resulted in queues of farm wagons stretching for hundreds of yards from the station.

Mike is going to try and find out some more - its an intriguing business but it does lead for interesting operations on my layout. On that subject do you think the Cornish SRM services always had trailers? I do have a pair of the Dapol ones on order, one in crimson lake and the other in chocolate and brown but I am not sure if these would be correct for my two Kernow SRMs, or indeed if the SRMs always had them - I really must try and get my own copy of Lewis's book.

Andy

The full SRM timetable for the weekday regular SRMs between Penzance and Truro seems to look like the following. It has a bunch of curious reverses in it which explains why the appendix in Lewis appears to show stations out of geographical order - the trains are going in the other direction at times! The train numbers refer to the column header numbers in the WTT and aid finding the entries. I have shown both departure and arrival times but most of the arrival times are not given so I have just made them the same as the departure times so as to calculate approximate journey times between stations. At least two SRMs are needed to operate this and they always start and end up in Penzance or Truro. There is just a single excursion down the branch to Helston. This is definitely at odds with the text in Lewis so perhaps he had access to a revised timetable?

On 28/04/2024 at 21:34, Andy Keane said:

@Brassey has pointed out the WTT for 1911 at http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=631 

Using the May 1911 WT I think I have deciphered the movements of the Helston Steam Railmotor service. The following timetable is made up of a series of entries in the WTT (I have added arrival times set equal to departure times were these are not in the WTT):

Unfortunately this sequence leads me to believe that the SRM did not stay overnight in Helston when running this timetable. It is also at odds with the data in Lewis. Lewis also includes a MFSO service for which there is no trace in the WTT. But if Lewis is correct the 17:55 from Helston was not a SRM but an ordinary loco hauled train and the SRM was left at Helston. Maybe an auto-train instead? It would also mean that overnight at Helston there was both an SRM and an ordinary loco which worked the early 06:30 departure. Despite the WTT I rather prefer Lewis's lists as being more interesting to operate so what more of an excuse do I need!

36 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

It’s the up platform, assuming the caption on this photo is correct: http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/scorrier-to-truro-exclusive.html

Thanks - so SRMs leaving Helston would have gone motor end forwards. This rather nicely fits with housing them in the shed at the far end of Helston - the smoke would have been next to the open end of the shed.

On 29/04/2024 at 22:53, Pete Haitch said:

Could well be. I also wonder if it actually went as far as Scorrier to collect the cream from Rodda's so that it could overnight from Penzance to London The attached picture is from Roddas website https://www.roddas.co.uk/

Do we know if this is the up or down platform? I am thinking about which way around the SRMs faced when running around Cornwall.

Phil @Harlequin in the SRM thread you said the Lewis book on SRMs confirms that in 1911 No.96 was shedded at Helston and that it ran a weekday service of: Helston, Gwinear Road, Redruth, Camborne, Truro, Camborne, Redruth, Penzance, Redruth, Gwinear Road, Helston (and Mondays, Fridays and Saturdays added one final return trip Gwinear Road, Helston). I have the May 1911 working timetable for the Plymouth Division and for the Helston branch there is only one specific mention of a "Passenger Motor" and that is the evening service from Redruth via Carn Brea, Camborne and Gwinear Road to Helston and back to Redruth. The only service that leaves an engine at Helston is the down 9:45 pm from Gwinear Road which then forms the up 6:30 am the next morning. There is nothing in the timetable to suggest this service did anything except return back to Helston from Gwinear Road, so I am mystified by what Lewis says. Does he give any further details? Maybe what he mentions is for an earlier timetable?

Andy

17 minutes ago, Pete Haitch said:

Cornish Black pigs

I will need to research that - to a towny like me piggies were always pink!

18 hours ago, richbrummitt said:

The one published by Wild Swan? Is already out. 

It is listed on Amazon as Great Western Siphons: Design, Development & Operation Hardcover – 22 April 2024 at £55 which is quite a lot I feel but such is the modern world.

4 hours ago, Pete Haitch said:

From what you have posted. it appears that the 'Helston Pig' ran on an ad-hoc basis which suggests to me that it was a service for local farmers to send the pigs to the local bacon factory as required.  Given the scale of operations at Calne, I would have expected the 'Chippenham Pig' to be more of a regular scheduled service like the 'Helston Sheffield Rabbit' siphons in later years - does the WTT give any insight on this?

Pete

It just records it as a Mondays only runs as requested service, exactly the same as the Helston Pig. 

Andy

12 minutes ago, Pete Haitch said:

lairage

I love the fact that even in my late sixties RMweb can introduce me to words I had never come across before!

3 minutes ago, Pete Haitch said:

As I recall from many decades ago, the demand for Harris' products exceeded that which could be produced from the Wiltshire pig herd,, so they bought up factories in Devon and Cornwall to boost quantity. With limited refrigeration etc it could have made sense to move the pigs to Wiltshire rather than meat - there is a good practical reason why some cultures from warmer climes do not eat pig meat. I believe that at some point it became easier to process the pigs in Totnes (or Redruth) and move the meat. I'm not sure from what dates, but I believe there were specific Siphons dedicated to these flows. IIRC @Bluemonkey presents.... had some pictures of these that disappeared in the Great Site Meltdown. No doubt the New GW siphon book due any day will answer these points.

Thanks for this. The WTT also reveals something I did not know about the Helston Railmotor. I had always believed that this was a service between Penzance and Helston but it seems not. The timetable shows the motor left Redruth each day just after four pm getting to Helston at 5:15 and then setting off back at 5:55 to get back to Redruth just before seven. This seems a very curious direct service and I wonder if it was connected to the bacon factory.

6 hours ago, Pete Haitch said:

Redruth it was.

 

 

epw009893 ENGLAND (1924). The West of England Bacon Co Factory, Redruth, 1924 | Britain From Above 

 

Yes the WTT shows a simple onwards journey to Redruth and then after a 90 minute stop, on again to Truro. I assume after a bit of shunting any empty stock plus the engine and brake van went onwards. It is still hard to see from the timetable how the empties got back to Helston though.

Looking further on I see that the Chippenham Pig Train then departed Truro at 8:20 pm. I wonder if this was bacon or piggies heading for Chippenham?

Given that Helston motive power in the early days saw a lot of four coupled tanks they have been something I have wanted from the outset. So far I have managed to convert a Hatton's 14xx into a reasonably reliable 48xx and am two-thirds through building a Mallard 517. You can no doubt see where this is going. Just like buses coming along in pairs, Dapol plan to trump both my efforts and I will be unable to resit getting one of each which will make my efforts seem rather ham fisted!

So I would just like to warn people that I have my eyes on getting an Alan Gibson 850 and I suspect the minute I get one and start on it, somebody will shift into a run of early 0-6-0 saddle tanks!

Andy

1 hour ago, Brassey said:

Likely to be live pigs otherwise it would be described as a meat train.  In the absence of any other ideas, I guess they would have travelled in cattle wagons.  In 1911 these would still be disinfected with a lime wash.  Anyway an excuse for some cattle wagons.

 

But could it be pig iron?  was Helston known to produce either?

Doubt it was pig iron. So probably live pigs, interesting that it was important enough to figure in the WTT while cattle, broccoli and other traffic we know was handled does not. It rather suggests a special wagon formation so maybe a whole run of cattle wagons?

8 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Hmmm, it’s difficult isn’t it.

 

Maybe in the railmotor era and for some time afterwards there was a coal bin and a coaling platform alongside each other? And by the 60s the timber platform was gone, leaving only the bin?

 

Or the bin could be an ash bin and the coaling process was all done form the lost platform?

 

Phil, Indeed an ash bin might have been more likely, though there is no sign of the pit usually used with ash bins. But perhaps that got filled in. I could certainly add another little coaling platform down there of course.

3 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Hi Andy,

 

Do you think that a coal bin in that position is the correct interpretation? Most coaling installations used a raised platform and I suspect that’s more likely what you’re seeing in the photos.

 

And specifically with the railmotors, we know that coaling platforms were used in other locations.

 

Phil, I agree a non raised staithe is not obvious, but that’s what the photo from about 1960 shows: something pretty close to the model I have shown in my photos, containing rocks, ballast or coal. The photo also shows a wheeled set of steps , presumably for getting into carriages etc. I am guessing that since for a Railmotor you have to load the coal in buckets, quite where you fill them prior to loading could allow for this staithe? I am not sure what else it could have been for.

Andy

@Brassey has pointed out the WTT for 1911 at http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=631 This is all new to me so great to have been made aware of this.

This covers Helston and shows that when required, on Mondays a “Pig Train” ran from Helston up the branch in place of the normal goods working. I assume this must have been a run of Micas filled from the abattoir that was adjacent to the goods platform. Although I guess it could have been live pigs - not sure what wagon types would be used for live pigs. Why it ran at 1:20pm on Mondays I have no idea. Also since it would probably have needed specialist trucks it is not clear how they got to Helston as there is no mention of a down pig train in the WTT.

9 hours ago, drduncan said:

@Andy Keane @Brassey the TNA series is Rail 938.

 

When using the TNA online search engine Discovery always go straight to the advanced search option - it’s far less painful than battling with the bog standard search options and the dross that it normally throws up. 
 

in this case tell it to search for through coaches in the Rail series and you get 49 results…

Duncan

Of course the real issue with TNA is you cannot really tell from catalogue entries wether the actual material will be of interest. For example they say they hold the signalling and telegraph records for Helston. But as to what these records contain I have no idea. Might they be the signalbox registers for example? Ditto the working timetables. I will have to go and look someday.

24 minutes ago, drduncan said:

On the subject of the composition (see what I did there) branch formations and wether or not brake tri-comps or brake comps were in use, have a look at the John Lewis articles in the late and lamented GWR Journal- there is an online index that will tell you the issue numbers. Apart from that it’s a case of pouring over photos and using @Penrhos1920 excellent website to help you decipher the formation.

I have a set of those and had not thought to look - duh! I will see what is there.