Bryn_Bach_Railway

9 hours ago, Creampot Junction said:

I cant understand why the Main lighting functions Like the main Head Lights (Day and Marker) and tail lights are not put on lower out put numbers as everyone will be using them. Compared to other features and then the build the numbers up with the function output which will be more popular. Or those that you will hardly be able to see from a viewing distance e.g desk lights on the higher functions.  Instead of them all being mixed bags and the main ones cant be used. Espically as the originally Hattons 66 head lights worked with the markers apart from the error with the bug eye lights.

 

Hopefully Accurascale will work with ESU to resolve this issue and put the Main lights on the lower out put numbers for the next batch of 66's.

Chris

They are on the 66’s. Most decoders will operate upto AUX4. For full lighting control all the separate lights need to be on separate functions or involve complex logic gates in the circuitry. Here's the function list in text view as well as a photo of the function card; 

Front Light - Marker Front

Rear Light - Marker Rear

Aux 1 - Red Front

Aux 2 - Red Rear

Aux 3 - Day Front

Aux 4 - Day Rear

Aux 5 - Night Front

Aux 6 - Night Rear

Aux 7 - Cab Front

Aux 8 - Cab Rear

On 06/04/2024 at 19:42, Bryn_Bach_Railway said:

 

2 hours ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

Would you buy a Tesla and complain that the Ford fiesta ecu you fitted has made the self drive system drive the car off a bridge, It all works with the right items so why complain when it will not with something your told does not work??? GGMS

Somewhat quickly want to respond to that example as I don’t think it’s quite close enough to what is actually happening. the difference here is the models are advertised as following a standard. ford ECU’s and Tesla ECU’s are not advertised as following the same standard. The example with car ECU’s I would argue is closer to trying to use an 8 pin or plux 22 decoder in a 21 pin model.

its more like buying a phone with a USB-C charger, which advertises itself as following the USB-C standards only to find that you only get the highest charging speeds with the manufacturers plug. Even tho the other plug you’ve bought matches all the same standards and same specs and has the same listed outputs etc, but is from your personal brand of choice. And you’ve been told by the manufacturer themselves that nothing in their own plug is non-standard.*
 

I don’t think advertising the full sound model as the only way to garentee full lighting is the way to go, they cost an extra £100 and not all of us want sound either. Just adding the recommended decoder to product descriptions (like the Bachmann 90’s) solves the same issue. maybe an alternative solution (if decoders are being provided by the manufacturer) is to simply not list the model as having a specific DCC socket or standard, and just link direct to the pre-programmed decoder. Personally I’d rather be told that only one decoder works even tho others might too, then be led to believe other decoders work when they don’t. 

—————

I think I’ve been pretty clear on this thread they even tho I tried a Zimo MN340C/D chip in 66 001 as it is what I have stock, and did not get full lighting. I intend to get the pre-programmed chips when they’re available anyways, and just listed my findings with Zimo chips for others who may find it useful. Which I know at-least one other person did so as far as I’m concerned it was worth the post.
 

as I said above, I’ll leave it there, I only wanted to make one post to clarify what was originally being discussed as some of the points were not exactly accurate with the standards or specs of mentioned models etc. I think I’ve covered that in my last few posts now and clarified it enough too, as well as linked to the exact standard for 21MTC too. As far as I’m concerned now I’m just patiently waiting for the other 9 sheds to arrive, and getting them running on various freight trains. I don’t plan on making another post here until that’s the case. 
 

*fictional example

edit;- wanted to add that despite the problems with DCC, I don’t want to blame that on the model manufacturers. in the case of AS, ESU have made the circuit boards and so the fault is on them if it does turn out to be non-standard. It’s still an AS model so I would still direct query’s at them, however i understand they didn’t make the circuit board. 

For the SLW 24 and AS 37, yes they are expanding on the standard. However the 21mtc standard allows upto 10aux functions and 2 directional lighting functions. Directional lighting at aux 1&2 being ‘full power’, and aux 3-10 being ‘logic level’. Some of the these need to be changed from input functions and so require function mapping, which I would say is expected for models of this complexity. However The AS 66, cav 56 and some other models fall within this 10+2 limit but still, for some unknown reason have problems with other decoders (In my experience). I will say there’s a small chance the decoders I programmed were set up wrong, however they either worked in other models, or in the case of the 56, had aux10 functional but no others so i personally don’t think that’s the case. However I’ll admit to that if someone can get theirs working on the same chips.
 

If anyone is interested, I’ll add a link to the NMRA standard document. I think I’ve been pretty clear in my points tho so I’ll leave it there. Appreciate people will disagree with some of my opinions, however I do stand pretty strongly by the fact we should at least be told before purchase. Bachmann do it for their 90’s and in all honesty I think it’s something every manufacturer should be doing. Surely there can’t be any harm in adding a sentence or maybe a few to the end of a product description to state the recommended decoder and set up. At the very least it would help reduce the amount of people trying to find the appropriate decoder, and it pre-sets the expectation that other decoders may not work as expected.

NMRA 21MTC standard;- https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/standards/sandrp/pdf/s-9.1.1.3_21mtc_decoder_interface_3.pdf

If that wasn’t clearly stated in the product description then as far as I’m concerned that falls into the same category as the AS37’s do. I’d like to make that clear as there are some that think I just dislike ESU which is not the case at all, however I’ll admit it might’ve seemed like that as all the models I have had trouble with have been ESU circuit boards. 
 

At the end of the day in the case of the 37 and apparently the SLW 24, if your using a non-standard setup it should be clearly advertised in product description etc. As for the cavalex 56 and As 66 and other models, if your going to recommend a specific decoder and mapping then this should also be advertised in product descriptions however with a caveat that other decoders may or may not also work. 
 

Anyways in an attempt to move back to 66’s and specifically the models, we are only 1 week away from the websites ETA of 20th of may for the rest of the batch! obviously that is subject to changes, however it does bring alot of excitement as well as precautions for the possibly shed infestation on many modern layouts. Time to make sure there’s enough room for them all I think.

Could possibly be due to Sutton locomotive works having a smaller customer base (unless I’m mistaken). Personally I can’t comment on them as I don’t own any of their locos. It it’s worth noting tho that there’s is a distinct difference between a decoder needing to be ‘mapped’ to work, and a decoder outright not working. I don’t know which the Sutton loco works model falls into, however if it is the latter then it is just as much of an issue as with other models. Even tho I use Zimo I’d still argue they should work with ESU once the function mapping has been adjusted accordingly etc.

I think it's worth quickly clarifying something here, as there is a difference that makes the 37 a bit of an exception. however ill keep it as quick as I can while covering all I thing is relevent as I don't want to repeat a previous topics result when it came to dcc. for reference in this post. I have used zimo MN340C/D's (variant dependant on what the loco requires) to test all the locos / stock mentioned in the post, excluding the 37 as mine are all sound fitted.

due to the 37's huge amount of functions, they way it was set up meant that there was no other option than ESU as it required more than the 10+2 function outputs NMRA specify. so as annoying as it was to discover it was the only way with that exact set up. maybe it could've been done differently but thats how AS chose to do it.

other models such as this 66 and the CAV 56 are within the 10+2 function limit however still only seem to give full functionality with ESU (interestingly however the Revolution Trains 'Caroline' operates fine). not sure on why this is, and in all honesty its even more annoying. However whether the cause is due to ESU OR other decoders somehow having different interpretations of the standard, or someone not following it properly, or maybe one of the companies made an honest mistake, the result just means we have to be more cautious about the exact chip rather than just matching the amount of functions.

I gave up trying to investigate after blowing 4 zimo chips in a 56. theoretically the HM7000 chip I believe should work via the app as it can access upto AUX 8(?), however saying that, as documented further back in the thread a correctly set up zimo chip (to operate upto AUX 10) will only work upto Aux 4.

personally as annoying as it is to those of us who want to use one brand of chip for various reasons. I've come to the decision that I will test everything on zimo, see what works and what doesn't. if I cant get enough lighting to work then I'll look at the specific chip, but it won't be a priority. I will admit that AS do help this by making the pre-programmed chips available with no extra hassle.

I would like to make it clear that I am not intentionally accusing anyone of anything here. just layout out facts from my experience from various models and from reading other threads on here. if it comes across as in any other way then I apologies in advance, that was not the intention.

*Edit* - Forgot on final point

of course as has been said in other threads, the annoyance of a model not working with other decoders could be avoided by making it clear in the description that despite all best and well intentioned efforts, only pre-programmed chips guarantee full operations of the function outputs. I can understand that there might be a concern that stipulation would hurt sales, but given the track record with AS stock I don't think thats a concern. I do stand by the last line of the post linked above in the 37 thread,  however they are not my products so I will leave it there. it has to be said that when the DCC functions are working correctly, the recent models form AS and Cavalex as well as other are truly outstanding. with the right scenery, weathering and angles ive genuinely mistaken these for their real counterparts.

8 minutes ago, IMS said:

Any problem with the 175 00  EPs? We saw some impressive examples last December, but they are still being assessed.

Sorry to sound impatient: put it down to enthusiasm and anticipation!

Latest update from their video at Key Model World Live was that they are waiting on Deco samples I believe. 
 

https://fb.watch/rMk4MspNiP/?mibextid=KsPBc6
 

about 15-20 seconds in along with a KSA / rover cube update too

1 minute ago, RBE said:

The lighting has to be on additional Aux connections or else you cannot work them independently.

I understand the headlight being on its own AUX connection, that’s not what I meant. I was more referring to the automation of the light being turned on and off when the loco is stationary being done by the decoder and a specific function map, rather than some complicated circuits on the main PCB. Apologies I could’ve worded that better.

1 hour ago, RBE said:

do we have it go out automatically whenever you stop or just have a manual headlight function button labelled master switch? Thoughts?

assuming it’s the decoder doing this internally using the existing lighting connections rather than it being wired to an additional AUX output? If so then maybe have it automatic by default, but with a manual override on a higher function number for those who want it? Not sure how possible that would be with the amount of functions in sound models, but would then give the best of both worlds

4 hours ago, Cor-onGRT4 said:

Strange Hornby is recommending the single chimney, while in this video with the double chimney it looks clearly there are two steam colums and more blast from the chimney maybe because the steam is under more pressure because the exhaust is smaller with the two holes.

And no problems it looks like it.

On Hornby YouTube channel about the P2, there is a text saying to use the single chimney for better resulsts, but the oposite looks better resulting.

short term the double chimney probably does look better, but I’d imagine it would allow a fair bit more water condensation on the inside of the chimney over time and thus run the risk of water dropping on top of the generator. The single chimney already results in a small amount of condensation on the inside walls.

There is a mention in the operating instructions that of you somehow get water on top of the generator, to clean it off as it could lead to damage. And if your running the double chimney chances are your not going to notice if water does end up on top on the generator and as such the generator might become damaged. 

The amount of steam being generated could well just be the reservoir being almost too full, as I have noticed the more water inside results in the more ‘steam’ out the chimney

Had a few layout issues but finally got them solved allowing for a proper full length railtour with the P2 steam gen. Even if it’s not the most realistic it certainly adds an element of immersion. It did struggle around some of the curves tho hence the 67 at the rear

After running her in last night, I got the steel wagons out this evening and gave her something to haul. Granted not the heaviest of trains but there was absolutely no issue what so ever with my 11 steel wagons. 
 

technically this exact spec of this loco is out of my era. However there’s so many 66’s it’s not something I even noticed until this morning and it’s not bothering my enough to do anything about it, so she’ll stay as part of the fleet along with her sisters due in a a month or two.

It’s also worth mentioning I did have to re-glue the horn grill back on this evening. However that’s the only piece so far and that could well have been due to me pushing directly onto it a bit too hard without realising until after.

i did try a few more settings with the Zimo chip too to see if it was an error with my programming. And while I did find that JMRI and decoder pro’s default values don’t match the Zimo manual (as such any functions beyond F4 are disabled), even after setting these back, I’ve still had no luck with functions F5-8. Would love to see someone else be able to get a Zimo chip working and share the settings however as it stands I’ll just swap to the pre-programmed esu chips once they’re available. 

1 hour ago, derekdoestrains said:

I wonder if the 37 chips would work, can’t be toooo much different…

Looking at the AUX lists I don’t think they’d be quite right.

the 37 Aux functions;

Front Lights - white marker light front

Rear Lights - white marker light rear

aux 1 - red tail light front 

aux 2 - red tail light rear

aux 3 - dashboard front

aux 4 - dashboard rear

aux 5 - head/day light front

aux 6 - head/day light rear

aux 7 - night light front

aux 8 - night light rear

aux 9 - cab front

aux 10 - cab rear

aux 11 - top light front

aux 12 - top light rear

aux 13 - top light rear

aux 14 - engine room light

where as the 66 is;

Front lights - white marker light front

rear lights - white marker light rear

aux 1 - red front

aux 2 - red rear

aux 3 - day front

aux 4 - day rear

aux 5 - night front 

aux 6 - night rear

aux 7 - cab front 

aux 8 - cab rear

so with a 37 chip, you’d most likely end up with the default running turning on night lights rather than day. But that depends on the pre-set function mapping

9 minutes ago, classy52 said:

Edit: Basically there is a break in the cantrail stripe on both sides of the headlight box.

more of a side on shot shows it quite well. Personally it’s not something I’d be too bothered about as I wouldn’t notice it from normal layout viewing distances, and by the time I eventually get around to weathering it could easily become part of normal wear and tear. However it is something that’s worth knowing about. You’ve got a very keen eye to spot that especially on the ESW livery!

Decided to contact Accurascale and ask for my order to be split, and as a result 66 001 turned up in the post today! I personally never got to have a proper look at this models previous life under Hatton’s so for me this is a huge step above the Bachmann ones I have had previously. I’m yet to run mine in but just doing a couple back and forth runs over some very gentle curves, the model runs like a dream.

I did have to adjust the back EMF on the current decoder to get a nice slow and smooth set off but that’s by no means an issue with the model, rather something that should be done on all models to fine tune them I my opinion. The DCC socket appears to have been redesigned from the original and is now an MTC socket, as apposed to the MKL used in the original Hattons run. As such there is a little bit more functionality for the lighting.

I’ve currently fitted a Zimo MN340C decoder, as accurascale are yet to release their pre-programmed ESU chips. Interestingly while being able to operate more functions than my previous attempt with a Zimo decoder and an ESU circuit board, not all functions are operational. I have made sure the Zimo decoder is programmed to operate them, it’s just having the same issue as I had before just on different outputs. However I can control upto AUX4 which gives me markers, tail, and day lights at both ends. That’s good enough for now until I can get proper chips from accurascale once their ready. Certainly seems to be some incompatibility between ESU circuitry and Zimo decoder tho but that’s not for discussion here, just something to keep a note of. 
 

I’m not a class 66 expert so I can’t comment on the 100% accuracy of everything, however I do seem to see these all the time here in South Wales. There’s nothing that jumps out to me as being wrong or out of place so I’m very happy with it. Looking forward to seeing the rest of the batch arrive in a month or two, hopefully with the correct decoders ready and waiting for them! Right, now to run her in and get her working the steel train, it wouldn’t be south wales otherwise now would it!

Very exciting to hear the first ones are here!, I think I know the answer but I’ll check just incase. For those of us who’ve ordered 001 in the same order as some of the other 66’s, I’m assuming 001 will be held and so that each order is sent out in its entirety in one?. Also is there any updates for the pre-mapped DCC decoders? Really looking forward to these now they’re that little bit closer!

A rather interesting and somewhat confusing update to the project status page! Both in transit and arrived, either way I don’t think it’ll be a long wait

17 minutes ago, scottrains29 said:

Did any of the modern version come back into stock? I didn't get any notification.

if I remember right from other forums, the stock notification emails do not all get sent at once. instead they are sent in order of sign up from earliest to latest. and on top of that, they only send between 1.5 and 2 times the amount of emails for the amount of stock. so if 10 items came into stock, then the first 15-20 people on the list will get an email. I believe that process repeats its self through the list every 5-10 minutes or so. 

that might've changed since it was mentioned and I might've got some details wrong. but it was something like that which was given as an explanation when people were saying they had not had email notifications before. I believe it was in the class 37 forum, or maybe the Mk5's.

2 hours ago, Markn said:

Ok I've calmed down and realised it works both ways so maybe I just need to be quicker. Will tape my card to my phone for easy access next time 🤣

appreciate its not for everyone, but this is where thinks like Apple Pay or PayPal really do help. can check out within a minute with them set up right and don't need to find the card. like I said tho there not for everyone but they do streamline the process

warwells have returned to stock, just picked up a pair for my heritage line as I missed the original hattons orders

Finally managed to pick up the tfw 67 in black yesterday. nice to see its been updated to 21 pin and has some decoder controlled lighting functionality. 

fitted my example with a Zimo MN340C, and have the following DCC controlled lighting;

F0 - Directional lighting including Head/Night* lights, Tail lights, and the side marker lights

F1 - Lights off No1 end

F2 - Lights off No2 end

F3 - Directional top marker light

*switching between the Day and Night headlight is still controlled by a switch on the underside of the loco.

very pleased with is as I have been all my 67's, and very glad to see the extra lighting capability. will do a bit more research to see if this can be a simple PCB swap for the older models too.

hopefully Hornby will do the matching Mk4 coaches and DVT once TFW get them into the final livery. would be a nice touch to have the remembrance DVT too! 

21 minutes ago, McC said:

 

There is about 5-6 weeks 

Perfect thank you!, I’ll pay them off end of the month then to relief some strain on the bank. 

now to start working out if I can make enough room on the layout to fit them all on track!

just had a second email about payment for these with an invoice. Are these super close now or am I ok to wait until the end of the month? Going off the latest timing of roughly 8 weeks from the beginning of the month I thought I was safe but wanted to double check.

Just had my invoice for the first run, so my bank is hoping there’s no colas in run 2 😂

wouldn’t say no to 66 789 or 66 773 in their current livery’s tho

I managed to find a solution to the coaches being incredibly free-rolling and not staying put on uncouplers if anyone here is interested.
 

I picked up some DCC concepts wiper pick ups to try add just enough drag to keep the coaches still on ‘not quite level’ track, but not enough to stop wheels turning when being pulled or pushed etc. I couldn’t find a way to fit them in the standard way and get the desired result, however I did find that fitting the plates vertically and bending the wipers up and over the top of the bogie frame worked decently well.

fitting them this way also means they are completely hidden behind the wheels, so you really can’t tell they are there from a visual standpoint as seen here

i found for a 5 car rake on my layout I needed 4 axels to have these fitted, so I chose to do the inside axel on the outside bogies of each end coach, as well as the inside axel on both bogies of the middle coach. This way also allows for some minor adjustments to make sure performance is not affected any more than necessary.

another thing I noticed earlier today before fitting these was due to how little rolling resistance these have, basically every model I own would haul these up my heritage incline with ease. The same models that struggle with 5 57’ LMS coaches which don’t even have pick-ups fitted!

*please excuse the small glimpses of a very messy work bench, I have far too many projects going on at once to have any hope in keeping it tidy 😂*