ReTyerd Signalman

4 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Anyway why would ordinary double block instruments be used with TS & T working as they do absolutely nothing to prevent trains being signalled in opposite directions overa. single line?

I guess before Mr Tyer invented his tablet system there was nothing better.  After that many railways just didn’t want to spend money!

4 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Perhaps you could also answer my question regarding the use of ordinary double line block instruments on a single line.  Perhaps you could remind where in the Rule & Regs there is a reference to wrong direcxtion moves on single line as I can't currently find the reference?

Sorry.  I misread your post and didn’t realise you were asking me a direct question.

I was referring to 'Staff and Ticket' working.  To those not familiar, a single line is worked by ordinary block instruments the same as used on a double line.  Security is obtained by using a train staff for alternate up and down working but tickets can be issued by the signalman who has the staff if consecutive trains are to travel in the same direction.  The staff being carried through the section by the driver of the last train before a train in the opposite direction.  All works well until the forward planning falls apart!

 I don’t have my Rules or Regs books so I cannot quote from them.  I think I may have had a brief ‘senior moment' by quoting single lines and got a bit muddled with bi-directional permissive working.  Apologies for any confusion.  Brain-fade is becoming far too regular!

Part of the GCR main line east of Sheffield had main lines in the middle and goods lines on the outside.  However the only wide space was between the two main lines and some signal boxes had all the main line signals on the wrong side of the line.  In latter years the signals were a complete jumble of different styles of colour lights; 3 and 4 aspect multi-lens or searchlight.  Some had route indicators while others were multi-head junction signals.

22 hours ago, meil said:

Chewing Gum! Clothes Peg please

I once bought an LNWR block instrument direct from British Rail.  The bell was okay but sounded a little flat.  After much fiddling around I eventually extracted a large tight roll of dark brown newspaper.  Most of it shattered into confetti but it dated from the 1920's!  Can't remember the exact year.

On 05/05/2021 at 20:23, micknich2003 said:

At Beverley North on the Hull to Scarbrough Branch the Inner Distant  was mechanical but the Outer Distant motor worked, both off the same lever. To further complicate matters, the Outer Distant was below Beverley Station's Starter that was also mechanically slotted as Cherry Tree's Home.

Had a few stuck like that in my career.  The frightening thing is when you learn that signal or slot repeaters don’t always work properly either!

21 minutes ago, RailWest said:

To be honest, that sums up my thoughts too :-)  Perhaps this has become a case of 'over analysing' what was otherwise quite a simple question.

I quite agree but the subject title is appropriate!  I think I could have explained things a little easier.

In my opinion a block section only exists in one direction.  If a train enters a single line and stops half way, any change of direction is regarded as a wrong direction move.  This applies to all single or bi-directional lines except those worked by ‘One Engine in Steam' or modern equivalent.

4 hours ago, RailWest said:

I'm afraid that I fail to understand the logic for that approach. If you have a single line between A and B then IMHO that is one block section, regardless of whether it is uni- or bi- directional and the type and number of 'instruments' that may be used to control it.

My logic is that a block section starts at the section signal in rear and ends at the outermost home signal at the box in advance.  The up and down sections of a single line rarely coincide.  The sections overlap but have different limiting points depending on the location of the signals.  In that respect the sections in opposing directions can be very different.

A block section is always deemed to be under the control of the accepting signalman in advance.  A single or bi-directional line is therefore under the control of a different signalman depending on which direction it is being used for.  If a train is proceeding from A to B it is signalled on the block instrument controlled by B but the signalman at A is still permitted to shunt a train into his rear section. If the other train clears the section he blocks back on his own instrument.  Both signalmen can also block back outside the their home signals at the same time.  It is therefore possible and perfectly within the rules for a single line to be occupied at both ends by trains on both the up and down instruments.  Some people would count that as two block sections while others are counting a double line as only one section.  It is all a matter of opinion.

Sorry if I’m confusing some people but I was just trying to point out that unless everyone uses the same method as each other, comparisons can’t really be made.  When it comes to ‘Track Circuit Block' you can have numerous sections in one direction but only one in the other.  How do you count those?
 

11 minutes ago, ColHut said:

Yes thankyou both.  That is the problem.  I have been carefully working out the WTT to fit, (And integrate it into the Historical GWR and LNER WTTs).  Also I would probably need to provide an outer home so that station duties could be performed within the protection of a home signal and Train out of section given to the signal box in rear if a train was otherwise only partially occupying platform 2.  Certainly some negatives either way.  Fortunately not a very busy line especially in terms of passenger movements.

 

regards

The real benefit of an outer home is being able to accept a train on the down main while another comes off the branch.  You don’t really need one to carry out station duties.  If a train is shunting and partially occupying the down platform there is not much point in being able to accept another train as it has nowhere else to go.

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

If you do that, what you then can't do is bring a train for the Branch into Platform 2 to wait for and Up train to run clear of the branch.  You'd have to hold the down train at the Home Signal.  Hopefully the timetable would be such that that situation would be extremely rare.

Agreed but going by the description given by the OP I don’t think the platform would be long enough to do that anyway.  If a signal was provided to hold the down train clear of the fouling point most of the train would be outside the platform.  Just as inconvenient on a non-corridor train!

Whether an intermediate box switches out or not is irrelevant to how many sections are controlled by adjacent signal boxes.  If intermediate signal boxes are switched out, the block sections are merely lengthened, not doubled.  The number of sections remains the same except when the closure of a box shuts a running line completely such as any running line that terminates at the closing box.

It is also misleading to simply count the instruments as they can be single or combined units.  The best way of counting the block sections is to count the number of needles (or whatever other type of indicator is used).  However this isn’t perfect either as some non-passenger lines can be worked on various forms of the 'No Block' system but these are definitely still regarded as block sections!

Also, in my opinion a single or bi-directional line should always count twice.  A single line terminus with conventional block instruments would be provided with two needles; one for the up and one for the down.

Your signal layout is fine.

The branch homes are in the correct formation.

The placing of the down main home signals are okay when considering the problems that you state. There were once many places like this in reality. The main concern is if a train stops in the platform and the signalman puts the home signal back behind it. There is then nothing to stop him unlocking and moving the points by mistake but there are ways of preventing this from happening. The usual method before the use of track circuits was to install an intermediate locking bar (also known as a lock retaining bar). This would be  approximately midway between the signal and the facing points. The GNR would almost certainly work this from the same lever as the FPL so both bars would work in unison. Thus if a train was in the platform it would almost certainly stand on one of the bars and prevent the points being unlocked.

Don’t forget - The signal box would face the main line and the frame would certainly be in the front so if the box is facing you the numbering needs to go right to left!