RichardS

On 06/04/2023 at 09:49, cctransuk said:

 

Assurance accepted - but it still doesn't answer 'Why'.

 

However 'fairly negligible' the additional cost, I fail to see the point.

 

CJI.

I rarely comment on other people's posts. 

We British have for a tendency to accept what we are given. There'll be some huffing and puffing but the stiff upper lip and other silly mythical traits together with the habit of having a cup of tea and carrying on regardless has often meant we end up with second best or what manufacturers deign to provide. Heavens, we still accept track gauge from manufacturers which is wrong and happily and gladly do so!

Why should we?

Why shouldn't things be right? Why shouldn't they be better? 

We've never had it so good have we? But why shouldn't we have even better?

If manufacturers such as Rapido want to add detail or improve things generally we should be saying thank you. Not saying what's the point.

What's the point of improving anything? 

There's a saying about integrity. Those with real integrity always try to do the right thing even when there is nobody there to see them do it. (How many people reading this drop litter or fail to pick up some they drop if they think no one is looking I wonder.)

ie: just because you cannot see something doesn't mean it shouldn't happen or be there

Keep it up Rapido I'm very happy to buy your products - and yes I'm shifting 'lesser' items onto the s/h market as will many others where of course those who do not want the extra detail or finesse will find a larger choice.

There are no doubt people still happily running Wrenn Std 4MT tanks in GWR Green who might say they fail to see the point of having anything accurately coloured or more finely rendered. 

Model Railways, full stop. What's the point?

Sorry rant over but I deplore negativity and the 'second best is good enough for me' attitude. Be special - demand better.

I am wondering if anybody could tell me please the overall length (heel to toe in a straight line) of the Marcway OO/EM Curved Point that has described radii of 5ft and 3ft.  Dow e know if these the actual radii or like PECO the substitution radius?

Many thanks.

On 31/12/2019 at 13:50, 2mmMark said:

There's a proposal to charge for all parking at Ally Pally and the consultation finishes today!

Here's the link:
https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/ALLYPALLYPARKING

 

Also, from October 2021, Ally Pally will be inside the expanded London ULEZ so visiting using a non-compliant vehicle will result in a fine.

Or organise a coach from your locality. Many coach operators are upgrading all/some of their fleets to Euro 6 vehicles.

If you live in Norwich and down the A11 corridor ICTravel (.co.uk) are running a trip on the Sunday this year. 

(I have to declare a connection to ICTravel as it is a relatively new company owned and operated by a friend who I have been helping in a variety if ways as he gets his business established.)

11 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

So what alternative to rucksacks is there ? Quite a number bring their own packed lunch.Many make bulky purchases.There is no provision made.....understandably.......for a secure crèche to deposit personal items.

Sorry but we all have to make do with what there is and give and take a little....always,of course,excepting bad manners.

I took a hessian shopping bag. Firstly, it folds up for carrying to the show. Secondly it takes sandwiches as well as a any rucksack (not if folded up on the way to the show of course, Thirdly it is oblong and thus takes magazines and leaflets and rectangular boxes rather well. And of course - all it does is take out people's ankles which as they are further from their brains than torso or arms one has longer to escape. I suspect some haven't even noticed yet.

On 20/11/2019 at 16:47, queensquare said:

 

I might bring the bubble machine next year though. We've been trying it out in the kitchen, its great fun and only about the size of a football so very portable!!

 

Jerry

Sssh - GMRC will be insisting all layouts have a bubble machine next year.

On 20/11/2019 at 06:56, Neal Ball said:

I will be wearing plenty of Lynx / Old Spice / Brut 33 on the day, so I can enjoy the exhibition!

With all that on; you're ensured free passage around the hall.......

8 hours ago, Chris M said:

I understand the bag drop facility will be in place again this year. It would be great if those with rucksacks would use it.

Could the gate staff, security, stewards not proactively encourage it?

Well, I'm sorry I missed the humour but it was a bit too realistic as in actual fact I have seen people similar to as you describe at shows - I even encountered a trader at one show who smelled of urine. That was very off-putting.

But I won't bother with the bookmark thank you as I probably wouldn't be able to find yours (if one submitted) amongst all the other after event moans and other posts comprising hundreds of repetitive, unedited, out of focus snaps of N gauge layouts taken with wide angle lens camera phones coupled with comments like "cor looked a good show mate wish I'd gone now. Any bargains?" :-)

17 minutes ago, Chris M said:

I've been involved with the Warley show since well before it was at the NEC. It's been wonderful to see it grow into what it is today. We took a massive risk in going to the NEC. The main reason for going to the NEC was to create a showpiece for the wonderful world of model railways. It has been very successful and has grown from the smallest hall at the NEC to the largest. 

It is still quite a unique show and we have at least one full size exhibit every year. We also have a number of layouts brought across from Europe every year. Although foreign layouts aren't to everyone's taste it's great to see what is often a slightly different approach. Because there are over 90 layouts there is a fantastic variety with some of the best modelling you will see and also some interesting oddities. We also have the winners of the Great Model Railway Challenge together with a few other layouts from the programme. You might just see "Stern Steve Flint" on the Peco stand.

 

A lot of effort has been made to attract small trade exhibitors as well as the big boys. All the magazines are there and usually the editors are there in person.

 

We also make a special effort to have as many railway, preservation and modelling societies as possible although there has to be a limit of around 50 stamds. This provides a great chance to chat to societies you are interested in and maybe join them.

 

Then there is what is almost certainly the largest collection of demonstrators at any show.

 

In order to encourage youngsters we now have a junior admission price of just £1 which applies to both days.

 

We believe it is a great show and the main driver behind it is to enhance our hobby. Perhaps the most amazing thing is that this show is put on by a bunch of amateurs; basically just ordinary club members. There are no paid staff  and there is no big business behind the scenes  although we are very grateful that we have our sponsors. There are a lot of people giving up their time for free to make the show happen every year. We all just do it for the good of the hobby and the thrill of being there.

 

We just love to see lots of people there enjoying a day out.

 

In all those years I have never been hit by a rucksack bit I have seen thousands of happy people.

 

I recommend that you all buy a two day ticket so you have time to fully enjoy it all!

Precisely Chris, it's a great inclusive show. I have been hit by a ruck sack but it's no where near the problem in my experience that others make it out to be when finding a reason not to attend. Same as the occasional niffy visitor. It happens everywhere but not a reason not to attend.

bus.

23 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Probably someone who hasn't been on a train since the days of the BR sandwich..... 

 

For those not paying attention and calling those concerned with travelling down moaners, the trains are going to be severely disrupted and they are telling you NOT to travel. Is it worth the risk? Maybe if you have a ticket and accommodation it is. Personally I wouldn't chance it.

 

 

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/today.aspx

 

 

Jason

I've eaten worse sandwiches than those BR supplied - which I never found to be too bad in comparison!

And as far as BR is concerned - I'm actually ahead of the game.  TOCs are so 1990s!

20 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

It would be nice if you've just been floored by some cretin swinging the aforementioned rucksack the size of a small planet, to get an apology instead of been looked at with daggers for getting in the way of their rucksack.

Yes, I have been knocked completely over by such an imbecile whilst stationary browsing at a retailers stand as they swung around without looking.

The chap just scowled at me.

 

Unfortunately it seems to be the norm at Warley, whilst elsewhere you would get an apology, for some reason at Warley it is "you" that appears to be in the wrong.

I have been clouted frequently by wayward rucksacks and never an apology.

The rest of what's on that list above doesn't bother me overly, but rucksacks.........

In such case you should ask him for the costs of cleaning your clothes as a minimum and compensation for the injury if any. I believe it counts at least as battery which in most minor cases does not warrent redress but in the case you describe you would certainly be entitled to ask him for compensation. He'd soon learn. As I mentioned eleswhere, in this case the organsiers should ask him to remove the rucksack, deposit it elsewhere or leave. Organisers have to be accountable in these cases - see what happens if someone's a problem at a concert or show.  An exhibition should be no different.

Try telling people straight this year if you are hit. It's only by we victims (yes, I've been hit too) taking a stand that change will come about.

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

Most of us are too polite to tell the 50 stone gentleman of pensionable age who smells of urine that his two large rucksacks hanging off the sides of his electric mini-bike and his Pentax telephoto lens out front that he is at the wrong exhibition and this isn't the Cosplay show.

If his kit and bags hit you tell him, if you're hurt ask him for compensation. He'll soon learn. Just co's he's disabled doesn't mean he shouldn't be considerate to others. You have as much right to a satisfactory day out as he has. People have no right to be a nuisance to others because of their circumstances and the organisers should take steps to ensure that any individual does not cause problems for others. 

10 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

You certainly intimated that you felt you know better than we had already stated. Of course that's bound to irritate.

I'm sorry you read it like that however, I fail to see any intimation in it myself. It's simply a forecast of how I suspect things might develop in the future.

9 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

So basically, we are all doomed and Andy and I are lying to everyone. Cheers for that. 

 

What is inevitable is that any service that costs money to run, needs to bring in an income. We've already seen people on this thread boasting that they won't buy the magazine currently subsidising RMweb and that they block all adverts and any other way of bringing in some money - but that they have some sort of "right" to a free-to-use forum. 

 

In the past we have explained how subscriptions and especially digital ones, are more profitable for Warners - that's why they are pushed with more content for less money.  If everyone bought digitally, we'd be a lot happier. You are correct that overall paper magazine sales are dropping. We're holding up because of our conservative market, but others are in freefall. Should we ignore this and plug on without making any changes or trying anything new? Many people think that's exactly what we should do, but then it's not their livelihood at risk. 

 

As others, including me, have said. Any forum needs a large body of people posting to keep it alive, which is why RMweb will always be free. Long term, RMweb has to be a revenue stream - Warners are lovely people but they can't afford to run it at a loss. I know this sounds terrible to some, but it's true. Gold simply means there is an incentive to make RMweb better as it means more visitors and more potential digi-subscribers.

I cannot see that I named any individuals Phil or suggested that anybody is a liar. That is your incorrect interpretation of the points I made.

Publishers are fickle, titles change hands, new editorial regimes arise. You nor Andy York or anybody else can guarantee anything will be so in the future.

Yes, as of today, there may be no intention to change anything. But in a year, two, three who can say. And I was looking into the future in my comments.

As I concluded we shall see.

Looks to me like a straightforward monterisation exercise of a social media service. If RMWeb Gold replaces the digital subscription at no premium then I can't see what is in it for Warners unless additional digital subscribers are recruited.

This would probably happen over time anyway with demographic changes but I suspect this is a ploy to acclerate the process with thee ultimate goal of ending the hard copy magazine.

In time it is inevitable that only subscribers will be allowed to post on the forum except perhaps in a guest area.

For the present such moves will be denied but this is what I would be looking to do if RMWeb is seen as a future revenue stream for Warners.

Either that it load it up with advertising - which of course will be in the digital magazine anyway.

We shall see.

26 minutes ago, EmporiaSub said:

And some now have the wheelie versions, towing them along behind them.....

I think you need to be more tolerant. These people are probably homeless and carry all their worldly goods around with them.

I think this is what you seek.

https://www.udeuschle.de/panoramas/makepanoramas.htm

I kept it in my favourites.

I do know Tim Horn as he makes his workshop available to the North Norfolk Area Group of the S4S for meetings. He is a thoroughly decent hard working one man band, family man and a railway modeller too boot.

His workshop is always full of orders and work in progress. He does all his own design work afaik and develops prototypes of new boards which he refines through various manifestations. I know because I've seen all this.

I cannot beleive he would knowingly ignore a customer - but having heard him refer to 400 emails to look at it is easy to see how one could get overlooked.

Of course every retailer/manufacturer has the right to ignore correspondents and some do - their businesses seldom prosper. Tim seems to be increasingly busy so that speaks volumes.

It seems to me that the UK model railway industry has a few insurmountable problems which come together to cause this situation.

1. Our models are made using small batch production. Lots of short runs which are not great for ensuring consistent quality. Cars are made in hundreds of thousand whereas our models are made in batches which I understand are often around 1,000 units.

2. Manufacturing is usually carried out by a factory in China. In all honesty the value of the business of manufacturing UK model railway equipment is too small to be very important to these factories. This means that, even if they are all part of the same overall company, the UK companies just don’t have sufficient clout to force the factories to do exactly what is wanted.

3. The margins on model railways aren’t great and even locos at today’s prices are relatively small value items.

 

All of this means UK model railway equipment won’t be perfect. I think we either need to be able to accept that or alternatively accept higher prices caused by production located closer to home. At the same time the companies involved do need to continue to try to improve quality.

 

It is always going to be frustrating when we have spent our hard earned cash on something that isn’t perfect. I can understand the Views of the OP and would feel the same. In the case of missing parts it would seem sensible to ask Hornby direct to supply them free of charge even though the purchasers contract was not with Hornby. There could be a problem in that when it comes to Chinese made items it is quite possible that there will be no spares available, yet another problem with Chinese supply.

 

I think we are in as good a position as possible regarding consistency and quality. It will sometimes be frustrating but what is the realistic alternative? European or UK manufactured but more expensive models seems to be the most likely way of improving both quality and development time. This would shrink the size of the hobby. A huge increase in volume giving companies such as Hornby and a Dapol more clout isn’t going to happen.

 

I hope Rob will find a way to forgive Hornby in due course.

What tosh.

Batch size should have no bearing on the quality in fact one would expect worker boredom to be less with smaller batches - a change is a good as a rest etc etc. Greater concentration.

Secondly just because a good is made in China is also not a indicator of low quality unless there is some perception at work here. Many Chinese products are of the highest order.

Whether the QC is due to the lack of clout you suggest Hornby might have we can but speculate upon. I would suspect it is more a cultural issue within Hornby itself.

To suggest that products bought here must be expected to be lower quality is an attitude I find quite bewildering. Second rate may be good enough for you but it ain't good enough for me and most others.

And - a general point - I also cannot understand the desire to return faulty good to the manufacturer. It is the retailer's responsibility to rectify faults on new goods. Don't let mail order retailers avoid their duties to you - their customers - else some will just exploit that attitude. Remember they are the ones who have made about a 100% mark up on the product for acting as an intermediary only if they are bypassed for after sales service.  It's money for old rope if you go back to Hornby instead.  And you wonder why products are dear? 

I cannot believe some of what I've been reading in this thread.

And how would you want them to do that? Would that include running a loco forwards. backwards, at a crawl and at speed? Would you assume that the shop staff have the expert knowledge to spot, for example, a missing handrail which certainly isn't obvious to me? And would you then be happy to accept that loco which has been handled, run and then replaced in its packaging?

 

And while I'm at it, might I just point out to those advocating 100% inspection of finished models the well-established fact that 100% inspection by humans cannot be relied upon to spot 100% of faults. It also ups the cost.

Yes.

Yes. Too many retailers are product ignorant. I had to explain to a 'specialist' TV retailer the other day what HLG is and why its important with regard to future HD broadcasts. Product ignorance is all too prevalent these days. Plus I would expect even an average shop assistant to spot holes where something is missing (the handrail in the example). If they can't do that one questions a) their employability and b) the motives of their employer.

Yes. I want a product that is complete and working on delivery not one I have to send back.

I don't think anybody has actually mentioned 100% product integrity for obvious reasons.

Having worked in and managed customer service in one way or another all my life - the last thing any sensible decent manufacturer or retailer wants are returned goods and complaints. Avoiding the vast majority of these is down to mindset, training and a little effort.

I suspect a lot of people on this forum have no experience of the dire state of British manufacturd goods (British Leyland for eg) or the lousy service given in most places in the 70s for example. Present day is in my experience by and large much better fuelled by global competition in goods and labour but there is no room for complacency. It's so easy to slide back into mediocrity.

The first port of call should be the retailer as that is who the contract of sale is with. By passing the retailer and referring straight back to the manufacturer is letting the retailer off the hook.

If you get a faulty car you go back to the dealership not the factory.

The retailers will have more sway in getting the manufactuer to improve quality.

Make work for the retailers who in turn will make work for the reps.

Nobody likes complaints (reps more than anybody)

If you accept shoddy work - you'll only get more of it.

Quality is a mindset. If something is done it can be done right or it can be done wrong. Doing it right is less costly than doing it wrong if the latter needs rectifying. But it might be cheaper if the buyers don't come back.

Better quality doesn't automatically mean higher prices as the latter can mean less sales especially in things like model railway items.

If a retailer - any retailer - disregards customer satisfaction, change retailer. They'll soon get the message.

Yes I know all about economies of scale but that doesn't apply to most retailers - the last thing they want is complaints.

Bachmann were renown for cheap sales at shows. They had so many due to returns for quality issues. They don't have so many now. They improved their QC. (as confirmed to me by one of their reps) Basically they had to. (Unless customers just gave up and accept their failings and I was told porkies by the rep - but I doubt that)

I doubt those buying say a new car and found switches for example missing would feel inclined to wire in their own replacements. Different scale same principle. A product should be complete as advertised when sold.

The role of the retailers here must also be questioned though. In a face to face sale then any omissions can be dealt with immediately but surely for mail order they are checking the goods before despatch. If not then surely they should.

It is quite normal for British consumers to habitually accept second rate goods and services lest they be forced to complain. Stiff upper lip and all that, don't make a fuss. This trait really is bad as it allows suppliers to get away with things.

Even if, as they explain, other buyers are happy to accept incomplete goods I am surprised they are, presumably, happy to still pay full price especially if they are then happy to effect their own repairs.

The manufacturers and retailers must be laughing behind their backs.

Of course this is a principle and the 'happy to repair and pay full price' group make their own choices but by doing so they send a message that others may not subscribe to.

Incomplete goods should be returned or at least sold as seen at a discount.

By accepting incomplete goods some purchasers are being taken as mugs by manufacturers and retailers who can safely ignore the QC that others expect.

The OP is quite right.

7/8th September 2019

Thanks '247' :-)

Presumably the date is known?