Gulliver

There is a difference between taking a (small) risk with a well known company/ individual with an excellent reputation (DJM/Dave at the beginning) and what is now happening here, no accounts filed despite assurances they would be, refunding most of the investors but not others (yes I understand why) and expecting them to then use a different method to invest, and all the other promises which have come to nowt.

 

If I get a refund I dont know whether I will re-invest or not, losing £250 is a big deal but possibly losing £1000 if the project is pulled at a late stage doesnt bear thinking about, what happens if some of those who wont get a refund decide it is a step too far and dont want to make any more instalments?

 

Snip

 

Do I want an APT? Yes absolutely that is why I ordered a 14 coach one, but do I want to risk anything up to £1000 on a promise of jam later? I am not so sure now, the number of red flags is increasing and we are not even that far into the scheme yet!

If 1000 people have ordered, we are talking £1m here, with £0.25m in deposits paid so far.  A lot of money to be thrown in to a company that has failed to file accounts on time two years running.

Although legally/ultimately the responsibility to file on time lies with the company, here I believe DJMs accounts had been prepared and submitted to the accountant but DJM was left in limbo due an accountant that had failed to file them in the correct time frames with Companies House ( or is that with HMRC who then update the company financial status on the Companies House databases) either way I am not sure DJM has failed to meet that basic task you refer to.  Companies House data is also not a paragon of absolute fact at any given time and is subject to the odd error.

 

Amazed to be honest that a thread of model trains has got into this level of depth on financial affairs.............quite the eye opener.

Nothing to do with the accountant, Dave confirmed on the previous thread that was locked that it was his fault, copied below.

Posted 30 June 2018 - 15:54

Just to push this further on, and not get off thread totally, i've just spoken to the accountant (yes on a Saturday) and the info required by HMRC will be filed today, possibly by mid afternoon, so i expect that depending on how their system works it will show the submission today (maybe automatically) or Monday afternoon at the latest when a human being looks at the submission.

 

No doubt the 'usual suspects' will not post that "all is now well"  but i will once i know.

cheers

Dave

Dave, your accountant hopefully is aware that you have to file your accounts with Companies House - this is where your notice of being struck off has come from.  It is nothing to do with HMRC.  I am surprised your accountant had not warned you that you were so overdue, or that the strike off notice had been raised as you would have had two warnings about this prior to the first gazette for compulsory strike off being issued.  Your accountant would usually deal with all of this to prevent this sort of situation arising?

Not sure what you are getting at Mick?

I would say the reverse is true, it is the non DJ projects that have progressed (witness the Bulleid Diesel for instance, or the 4-TC) while the DJ projects have been heavily delayed (Gate Stock, 1361, D600, Road Van?)

The only other project remaining is the GWR Railmotor which was a DJ project, unless I am missing something?

Hi mate,

 

Fully understand, and i ask you give me until Monday afternoon as Michael from DToS is away until Sunday, when i'll have a chat with him and give you all the answers you need.

 

Is that ok?

cheers

Dave

Also with ADB968008 in awaiting a response to this question.

I still don't understand how a project which will involve six figure sums can be at this stage without already knowing the answer to this.

As with ADB, I have supported other crowd funded DJ projects, and have just had my 74s cancelled.  That project was supported by Kernow and the terms were clear (despite conflicting info posted by DJ).  It does seem a lot of people are happy to risk a large sum of money on the basis of "trust me gov".  I would like to support this but it is still too vague for me.  Sorry.

^{Should the crowdfunding target not be met, all monies paid into the crowdfunding project will be refunded, minus the postage}

^{Why?  If the project does not get off the ground, why retain the postage?} 

Dave, I am actually right in the middle of typing you a rather long email and this heightens these concerns.

 

Woah, woah, woah. Please check Kernow's project page http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/pg/158/DJ-Models-Class-74-Project-Page which is quite clear on T&Cs:

 

 

When you place your order for one of the five exclusive models below, you will be charged in full as soon as you place the order.  Your funds are secure with Kernow Model Rail Centre and will be kept in a dedicated account.  Kernow Model Rail Centre will release the funds required to further the project as each milestone in development is reached.

Milestones include, laser scanning, cad/cam development, 1st EP tooling and 2nd EP tooling.

In the unlikely event that the project does not proceed then all monies will be refunded in full.  You can also cancel at any time, without penalty, and receive a full refund, right up until the model is sent to you. 

 

I don't think the T&Cs are clear at all.

 

What is the definition of "proceed" regarding a full refund?  Some may read it as a completed model being delivered, but it can also be read as being that the model has "proceeded" as soon as the first of the milestones has been reached, and hence the first of the money has been released to DJM.

 

How can you cancel and get a full refund if one or more milestones have been reached and part of your payment has been used to pay for those milestones?

 

I suspect someone at Kernow has copy/pasted these T&C's from their commissioned models (where Kernow does take the risk) and applied them to the Class 74 (where the assumption is as a crowd funded project it is the purchasers who are taking the financial risk and not Kernow).  Clarification from Kernow might be a good idea, if for no other reason than to make sure they really do mean to be as responsible as the T&C's can be read to mean.

In what way are these terms not clear?  While you have chosen to quibble over the word "proceed" you have totally failed to take account of the next line

You can also cancel at any time, without penalty, and receive a full refund, right up until the model is sent to you. 

​​Nothing to doubt about there, and your totally unfounded suggestion that a reputable retailer with a long established track record as copy/pasted these terms from their commissioned models is nonsense.

I have not yet actually placed an order for an APT but have been thinking about it, but I too have similar worries as adb968008.  I had also not realised that if I ordered through DTOS my details would be passed to a different company for invoicing, and I find it worrying that in response to the questions adb as asked we will have to wait until Monday for clarification?  Surely a project of this magnitude these contractual details should already have been sorted?

I also have a Class 74 on order and it has been a considerable time since I paid with virtually no updates in the two plus years since I paid in full for this.  I have no concerns over this as I am confident that my money is safe and I would like similar reassurance for the APT before placing an order. 

As has been said on their newsletter, it is not the date you ordered but the date you actually paid that is important.  The last update I saw said they were processing orders paid for in October 2017.

Respectfully, and for the sake of balance, Hornby ceased selling discounted products through their own website at the beginning of 2016, that is unless you were looking for an XXXXL Hornby branded T-shirt. They simply haven't undercut retailers by selling at huge discounts direct online for more than 18 months. Perhaps this is the most accurate post but only if it's 2015?

 

*gribble*

Agreed, and I think it was the previous CEO Steve Cooke (?) who put a stop to all of this, so I am not sure they have actually said anything new!

"Perhaps because the one you have highlighted has tapered buffers when they should be straight ..."

 

Not necessarily.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

PS. in the interest of not publicly prolonging this discussion, I did attempt to respond directly to Gulliver - but it seems that he doesn't accept PMs.

That image is dated 1949.  Presumably they changed them to the straight type by the time of the image posted on Kernow's website.  Not aware I had done anything to stop PMs. Will check.

Why? You can't go far wrong with https://railsofsheffield.com/search?searchTerm=1365 ; and £15.00 or so cheaper than the opposition.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Very heavily discounted, £159.95 RRP down to £115?  28% off?  Perhaps because the one you have highlighted has tapered buffers when they should be straight, it has the wrong cylinder drain cocks, is missing the handrails from the coal bunker near the cab doors, is missing the handrails from the coal bunker at the rear and has the wrong number of brackets on the rear.  Think I will stick with my order which will have these correct, even if it does have a barely noticeable splasher.   

Ok just above average Ok. There are aspects that have been nicely executed but one or two that just look weak compared to the like of the Bachmann Polybulk that raised the bar of expectation.

The Bachmann Polybulk with an RRP of £59.95 at 2016 prices, £15 higher than the Tiger?  I don't really know how you can compare the two anyway, they are totally different models?

^{I see Hattons are offering it to pre order @£86 which seems pretty reasonable. Obviously the lessons of the recession and lack of disposable income are hitting home with manufacturers. As to announcing it as a spoiler to Hornby, remember Hornby not exactly blessed with manufacturing options at the moment.}

^{I can't understand how Hattons can do that, let alone at that level; is the information correct?  Based on current Bachmann prices these atlantics would have an RRP of c.£140-155ish but 2015 is incalculable price variations away from September 2013 so the RRP could be 10-15% greater, or more, and is hardly likely to drop I would have thought.  In fact the future is so unclear that even Bachmann don't yet quote a price for their own product!}  

 

^{So how have Hattons arrived at a price (assuming they have)?  And if they have just how valid is it for locos which are 2 years away - all sounds very odd to me and if that price is correct I suspect they'll be getting as many advance orders from other retailers as they will from end customers.}

^{To clarify, Bachmann not surprisingly at this stage have not released any pricing information.}

 

Hattons have taken a flyer off their own back and if you read the text of the pricing announcement they advise they would honour any reduction in price for pre-orders but if the price increases they would advise customers accordingly to allow them to cancel the order if they wished.

 

The latter re a price increase is much more likely than the former in my mind.

^{I'd say you're bang on there Muz; Mike's assessment on likely pricing is broadly accurate too although no price, due to the reasons you state Mike, has been confirmed yet.} 

^{I still think it's grossly misleading - and perhaps rather obvious why they have done it (which strikes me as 'sharp practice').  It is plainly obvious that the loco is going to cost a lot more that 80 odd quid when you look at Hattons price, let alone the RRP, for the Bachmann 'Dukedog' which is in many respects a far simpler loco to produce than an outside cylinder engine with an extra set of trailing wheels.  Plus the release date is so far off even the brightest crystal ball in the world cannot predict changes in the umpteen factors which affect the UK price of something manufactured in China.}

 

^{Headline numbers are probably far more important than caveats when it comes to selling something.  What grabbed attention was not the offer of a chance to forego your reservation if you didn't like the (inevitable) price increase but the price.  And what also matters when you do know the real price is the urge to hang-on to a reservation you've made by pre-ordering instead of taking your chance getting onto the lists of another retailer.  All in all it's a 'clever' sales ploy - end of story.  And there's already enough information in this thread to get a pretty fair idea of what the loco actually will cost, albeit at =2013 prices, when subjected to Bachmann's 15% initial discount limit (i.e. on release Hattons won't be able to sell them for any less than any other retailer who cares to apply the maximum permitted discount).}

Bumping this in the light of the NRM announcement today, with a price of £179 for a very similar loco, shows The Stationmaster to be spot on (as usual!).

_{Dapol's website now says "The first shots of our JA 73/0 Class 73 are now in. Contrary to what BRM have published  shots of the JB 73/1 variants are not too far behind"}

_{So what are they actually trying to say - BRM got it wrong?  BRM were told the wrong thing by them?} 

_{Looking at the actual samples they appear to have more than one version of the JA (with and without headlight at least) and yet only have one JA listed - 4D-006-004 E6003 BR Green.  I hope that does not turn up with a headlight!}

So you paid for a book in July and havent received it yet, have you tried to contact the seller since?

I was responding to the previous poster asking if anyone had received the book. I did not see the need to contact the seller at this stage as previous posts showed they were only just sending them out. It has arrived today and no doubt they are working through their orders. I had not realised that pre-ordering through that supplier meant paying up front as well, but if I had known I would probably still have done so anyway. The good news is the booklet suggets a hard back book being a difinitive history is also on the way. I am sure these models have increased interest in the prototype?

Not yet, I was charged in full in July last year but nothing has arrived yet.

AFAIK D6334-D6336 were delivered with headcode panels, green livery and no yellow panel, so it is a viable livery for the current nose tooling.

Neil

I think this was done to death quite a few pages back to say that the current tooling was not suitable for all over green. Given the demand for it I am sure Dapol would have done it if it could be done on the current tooling. I am sure one of these numbers was quoted as being in a photo and there was a reason why it could not be done, headcode boxes in a different position I think.

Just a quick update. The class 22 booklet is now available from western Legacy publishing.

Linkypoos here!

http://www.westernso...ibookletnew.htm

Jim

Thanks for the heads up on this. I was charged for this back in July last year so I hope it is worth the wait!

Try http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/product/26698/D1000A_Dapol_Class_22_Diesel_Hydraulic_Locomotive_number_6326

or

http://www.ehattons.com/25506/Dapol_Model_Railways_D1000a_Class_22_B_B_Diesel_Hydraulic_6326_font_B_in_BR_Blue_Full_yellow_ends_split_hea/StockDetail.aspx

for starters

To clarify, only D1000f. Running number D6331 in green SYP have been shipped over and we have had the full consignment of them. They have today gone out to stockist who ordered them and we are taking stock to all the Dapol stockists at Warley, but only their 'spares' as the others are already spoken for with customers.

Its also surprising that DApolDave says that the bulk of the stock had been despatched to retailers TODAY, timing that just prevents or stops those retailers having the stock to take to the NEC.

Dapol Dave has already said what is happening. They are taking the stock direct to Warley for those retailers that ordered it AND have spare stock that is not pre-ordered. If you have pre-ordered you are guaranteed your model. For all you know Kernow only have 2 spare, for example, and they may both be gone in the first five minutes. Without the pre-order you would then probably miss out.

As craigwelsh said Kernow is not one bloke and given the information had only just appeared on here today do you not think it possible that with all the Well Tanks being processed, as well as Model Rail Class 37s, and packing up for the biggest show of the year, that they may just have a lot going on and someone missed the update?

Super D, are you a member of staff at Kernow or something?

I would not worry about the red light being a bit dim. Most models have the lights far too bright anyway. The real things were so dim they were barely visible at night and certainly not visible in daylight

Clicking on the pictures in Andy's post above also takes you to the relevant item on the Kernow site.

I would also have liked the NSE one to be brought forward, but as they have shown this as 205 025 presumably they cannot do this one on the initial batch as it would be incorrect. If I remember right they can only do units 205 001 to 205 018 (or 1101 to 1118 in old money). I am going to search through my photos to see if I can find another 2 car NSE one from within that number range in case that is of use.

I would agree with that. Heljan seem to be going through a bit of a phase with this glossy finish but it really does make them look toy-like. I nearly had a Western until I saw the glossy finish and was glad I had not pre-ordered it.

That is also my experience Keith. I have not found any other shop that felt the need to charge that far in advance. I can understand that delays can happen and that not everything will be sent exactly the same day that your card is charged, but two weeks is pushing it. I know that many are not bothered by this, but I prefer to use places who do not do it.