andyrush

Small steps, Gilbert, small steps.... now you've all that extra space, what about starting with a footex?  Nice old York B16 bulled up, load of nice ex-NE coaches from the far back end of Holgate sidings where they've been since the Coronation weekend...

 

Then we can get you on to Atlantics... the 'Plant Centenarian' would be a good place to work from.... you'll find yourself back in 1947 in no time.  I'm sure Peter can rebuild that arcade for you in an afternoon.  Then, well, wartime was terribly dreary.  You really ought to carry on back to the 1930s.  Blue, silver and green locos.... 'brake tests' on a Sunday with the Dynamometer Car....

 

You know it all makes sense.

I've tried to tempt Gilbert with some Parkeston Quay West to the north east BAOR leave trains and return with various exotic engines requiring changing at PN. It would give him a proper excuse to have a Colchester B17 on show.

Nice to see your stuff populating Grantham, by the way (even if you did perpetuate loaded coal wagons heading north.... ). It looks like it is already a seriously interesting train set to play with!

Andy

 Re 4th day at Durham - I'll see you there then!

Andy

Yes indeed, a marvellous day playing trains capped off by the last rites at Lord's on the way home and reading all the Australian post-mortem breastbeating on the web last evening.  Takes me right back to 1989...and 1990-91... and 1993...  I can only hope they're playing well enough to make it to day 4 at Durham, or I shall be writing to that nice Mr. Rudd to ask for my money back. 

Gilbert

If your distance between support legs allows, could you get your willing chippy (!) to make you up a 4ft 3in wide (approx) chest of drawers on wheels to allow you to store the cassettes lengthways under the north end of PN. My drawers (if you will forgive the expression  ) are set at 3 inch pitch and I can get 4 cassettes in each drawer. Your cassettes are taller, and I think, narrower than mine, but you have top 'handles' which means you don't need 'finger room' between them like I do. So, say your drawers are at 4 inch pitch and you can get 5 cassettes in each, and there is 3 feet of usable height (allowing for the wheels), that makes a lot of cassettes!

Just thoughts, don't know how practicable it would be.

Andy

Oh how I wish I could. If I had the space it would be there on a lower level, with the connecting spur....and the bridges over the Nene, and the Midland lines behind North.....

Several people and a fowl on this thread need a cold shower...!

It is going to be interesting seeing the goods cassettes filled with a convincing mix of rolling stock appropriate for the trains depicted 

Andy

Don't expect any updates from Gilbert any time soon, he left Ancaster with a baker's dozen (he doesn't like 13) of new cassettes yesterday 

I hope some of them don't have solid ends! I was worried about his piggy bank if his goods train cassettes could only be used in one direction....

Andy

Thanks Andy - as authoritative as ever (and great pics)

 

At the risk of not putting down the shovel(!)   in my defence I was responding to Al very much with his Bakewell project in mind, thinking of a country goods yard in the Peak District, perhaps served by one pick-up goods a day - a world away from a busy, bustling marshalling yard. To complicate things further - and if I'd thought on a bit - the goods yards at Grantham had the working areas laid level with rail top in areas so as to allow vehicular access, as the following picture shows:

http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10443415&screenwidth=1349

 

Moral of the story is to work from a photo of your chosen prototype (or inspiration for your model). The point about a level working surface for rail staff, horses, etc is well made however. I wonder if that was the main reason for the use of loco ash, as a top surface that soon compacted nice n level? 

 

Absolutely agree re the 'ballasting with rocks' look! It also puzzles me where a model has something similar in depicting a road surface...

The link you supply seems to show a sleepered crossing (for wheeled traffic) in front of the loco, to my eyes the other sidings visible have the ground made up to sleeper level. Just to prove that this didn't only apply to major marshalling yards, here is a view behind the up platform at Woodbridge (courtesy of the Mike Brooks collection, as were the previous two). The chickens are optional......

Andy

Thanks Al,

 

Yes, my observations are generally the same as yours. One of my 'things' with a steam era layout is to show the distinct contrast between fully ballasted and carefully maintained running lines and loosely laid sidings. If such sidings were ever ballasted then I am sure it would have been a long time previous or just the odd patch here and there to pack out the obvious dips and bumps. I've read over the years that loco ash was often used as 'ballast' for goods yards (I believe the NER even used it for mainline ballast!). I also wouldn't be over concerned with it being level with sleeper tops (I think that tended to be more the case in loco yards where there was a continual dropping of ash and cinders).

 

So, yes, I was going to go for a very light sprinkling of dark grey/brown flock, just enough to give a suggestion. But be sure to fully ballast the mainlines then you'll have that lovely contrast.

The portrayal of the track in goods yards is a major stumbling block on most model railways, as is the transition from 'main line' ballast to 'yard' ballast. The main thing to be remembered is that goods/marshalling yards had lots of people walking about in them (shunters/number takers/train preparers/guards etc) and having the sleepers standing proud was a major disadvantage, at least on the outsides of the track. Also, if a goods yard was shunted with the aid of horses, the same thing applied between the rails. The presence of 6 inch boulders, as seen in most model railway yards destroys the illusion quicker than overscale rail.

Attached are a couple of shots at Whitemoor (pre WW1 admittedly, but the same thing seemed to apply into the 1960's), the first of which shows part of the marshalling yard and the second shows the transition from 'yard' to 'main' lines

Hope this helps

Andy

all very interesting, thank you.

 

do we know when it closed or was last used by rail traffic?

Closed 02.10.1967 according to Clinker's Register

Andy

Out of period and inconclusive but The Book of the Great Northern by Peter Coster Vol.1 p.129 has an up train with three 'white' container-like loads in highfits (but could be timber crates). Out of period but right railway, fish train for London leaving Grimsby in April 1961 with several 'white' containers visible (could be Birds Eye by then) in The Railways Around Grimsby, Cleethorpes, Immingham and North East Lincolnshire (Foxline) plate 134. There are numerous other chuffery pictures of fish trains in this book but no other containers can be seen. Also out of period and the wrong railway, May 1962 shot of the Grimsby - Whitland fish on pp.62 and 86 of An Illustrated History of Mansfield's Railways (Irwell) show several containers marshalled next to the engine.

Looking at British Railways Wagons - the first half million by Don Rowland, there were over 500 AF and AX containers built between 1950 and 1958 before the AFP Birds Eye containers came along.

I'll keep looking....!

Andy

Looks OK to me, Gilbert. If I were to be ever so slightly critical, I'd say 'shiny wheels', although if they've just come out of the box that's fair enough.

 

Has Mr. Rush started on fitted heads and those nice bogie brick wagons yet?

Absolutely OK Gibert - so long as those 5 plank opens are loaded. 

The problem with bogie brick wagons is they don't seem to have been used much on trains from New England in Gilbert's period, although this thread on the LNER Encyclopedia forum says they were http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3651. They certainly seemed to have spread their wings a bit in BR days! See http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/h358f611e#h358f611e. Anyway as GB already has some, he had better use them - but only in odd ones and twos on the engines of class F trains originating at New England and they will need to be loaded. The return empties would have been worked direct to Fletton, I reckon.

Reading the above, I can see the reason for them not being seen very much south of Peterborough in daytime, even if they were being used. There were no daytime class E's in 1958 and there wasn't much point in putting them on class F's because they didn't need to run any faster than unfitted timings and the trains were presumably up to length limit anyway with a WD on the front.

As far as Birds Eye Containers were concerned, I'm pretty sure they were first used for traffic from Yarmouth to London in 1959 - see the ever helpful http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/conflatbafp He also says that insulated AFP containers weren't introduced until that year, so if that is the type that was used on the Aberdeen fish trains, it wouldn't be until after Gilbert's chosen date anyway. I will have a furtle round in my references to see if I can find why I thought some sort of insulated containers were in use earlier....

Andy

Gilbert,

that Duck wants to mind he does not got two barrels of Lead Shot up his rear end.    

He will if he comes anywhere near my garden railway! Ducks**t is not conducive to good running, I've found

Thanks Mike!  I knew you'd come up with the goods .

 

A quick check back through the topic shows both colour light signals at the south end to have 3 aspects each, so that means your advice above can be followed to the letter .  That from platform 6 (excursion platform) has a feather indicator too, but that is irrelevant to the distant signal under discussion.  I think the use of the passing contact switch controlling the home signal and then the green aspect from the platform 2 starter will be enough to allow the distant to be controlled.

 

It does, however, hinge on Gilbert remembering all that when setting his signals up before driving trains

 

Cheers!

Surely all you need to do is feed the return for the distant Tortoise over the home Tortoise contacts, so when the latter is at danger there is no feed to the distant. The actual conditions for the distant coming off are irrelevant in this context, they can only apply when the home is off.

Andy

No expensive blondes (or spaniels) until after the goods train cassettes are properly filled.....

Great video, apart from the sticky slot (wrong side failure)

Happy birthday

Andy

Hi Clive,

 

 This was partly a senior moment. Being even more senior than I was the previous day. i keyed in the command for the distant first, and of course with the camera running it was too late to do anything about it. I was concerned myself though that both should have returned to danger at the same time, but the problem is that they are worked by separate Tortoises, and thus have different accessory numbers on my NCE system. I'll have another look at the manual and the instructions for the accessory decoder to see if we can work both off the same command, though I'm not confident that it can be done. Tim is a very bright young chappie though, so maybe he can come up with something.

Does the home signal Tortoise have a spare pair of contacts?

Nice photos, but EMPTIES from High Dyke to Frodingham? 

Andy

Hi Andy,

 

The 'temporary' footbridge was either attached to Thorpe Hill road bridge or was at least built right up to it (Probably separate) . It was a later addition to the line - presumbaly when the schools were built on Thorpe Hill - previous to this it was all fields !

The pipe bridge is still there and in good condition. If you go to Google Earth Streetview you can see it - just south of Burleigh Community College, Thorpe Hill, Loughborough.

 

The footbridge was a tubular metal structure with mesh attached on the tubes that formed the side walls for safety. Thorpe Hill road bridge was a 4 arch bridge. There was a central brick column to support the footbridge in the middle. - The brick column was separate from the road bridge.

 

Nice photo - and neat track given the line had been through the war years and would have been little used by 1948.

 

Cheers

Paul

Thanks Paul

Once again the bridge registers can mislead the unwary! It certainly doesn't mention a footpath across the pipe bridge.

Was the Thorpe Road footbridge on the Loughborough or Shepshed side of bridge No.29?

Andy

 

Snells Nook LNWR Loughborough branch pipe overbridge 1948 JVol7211.jpg

Snells Nook LNWR Loughborough branch pipe overbridge from Thorpe Hill Bridge 1948 JVol7211

 

Interesting picture this, the pipe bridge is the Derwent Water Supply bridge No28A at 9m 19ch and mounted next to it must be what is described in an addition to the bridge register as 'temporary footbridge No.28B between 9¼m and 9½m'. Never thought I'd see a picture of it, much more interesting than steam engines (ducks and runs for cover!)

Andy

JVol 3223 - has the leading wagon been cut down, or is the top plank missing from the door?  Full of wheels, too, by the look of it - you'd get told that was unprototypical if you did it on a model.

Top plank of door on one side missing I reckon. And that load WOULD be unprototypical on a model - because you could bet that nasty old plastic wheels painted bright orange rust would be used!

I suspect this diagram has something to do with the bridge works..

 

PC044324.JPG

 

Were the original cast iron supports incorporated into the new brick piers? It would make it a difficult job to pull them out and build the coffer dams to erect totally new piers?

I don't think that diagram is anything to do with the bridge 144 reconstruction. It is after the closure of No.1 signal box on 13 March 1977, and I think it is to do with the rebuilding of the station in preparation for electrification.

The cast iron pillars of the original bridge 144 were indeed encased in brickwork and concrete as can be seen from these two pictures taken on 20 May 1949 and 16 June 1949

Thanks for the correction.  Why is it the captions I check are always right, the ones I copy from Dad's notesare wrong?  

 

Once again I should have noticed, I used to drive over the crossing at Sleaford regularly back in the early 70s.

 

David

Don't worry about it! Keep them coming.....

Andy

Are all those at Spalding 'Tulip Specials?'

They can't be Tulip Specials because they are not taken at Spalding! 

All three photos show eastbound trains at Sleaford East - see the signal box nameplate visible in one of the pictures (JVol3085 and JVol3087 look to be the same train). They are down trains bound for (probably) Skegness or Mablethorpe as they are taking the main line to Boston, rather than the curve to Sleaford South Junction

a view of the area can be found here: https://picasaweb.google.com/100714154953338576156/OldPicturesOfSleafordLincolnshireBennetPanton#5505966964752469666

Andy

Pedants corner...

Huntingdon East J15 5451 down pick up goods c1947 JVol3054

I reckon it is an up train and it looks as though the engine is about to pull forward to run round the train prior to backing onto the GN up goods line and then going head first through the south end ladder to gain access to the goods yard on the down side of the North station. I understand that propelling the whole train through the ladder was frowned on (although that happened in plenty of places on the GN in the London area). After shunting the GN yard, the return train would come back across one of the ladders with the engine on the south end, propel back into the East station and then run round again before heading back to Cambridge.

This scan of a 1954 Control Office diagram should make the moves clear.

Re: Huntingdon Ouse Bridge rebuilding up line c 1949 JVol3055

Ah, bridge reconstruction! (Well it takes all sorts....)

The up line spans of bridge 144 were reconstructed between April and November of 1949 with a temporary signal box and signalling provided.

I reckon the stage depicted in your Dad's photo, which shows the up goods line girders ready for removal, is early May 1949 (certainly by 20th of that month, when they had been removed)

Here is an elevated view looking north dated 4 July showing the new girders for both up lines in place with track laid on the up goods. An up express is crossing the bridge using the temporary slue from the up fast to the down fast over the bridge. All down traffic was using the down goods, again over temporary connections etc. The former Midland single line from Kettering to Huntingdon East can be seen on the right

Industrialogical Associates collection

Thanks once again John,

 

Your diligence and tenacity in ever seeking further for more information about Grantham past never ceases to amaze me; that's a proper piece of research you've done there. Delighted to hear that a full sequence exists and hope to be able to see it one day.

 

It occurs to me that the Coronation's passing time through Grantham station (@5.30pm) would be all important in terms of it being captured on film, that being an ideal time to see it 'on the way home from work'. As the service started in September 1937, there would have been a relatively few number of weeks to record it before the darker night's set in so I think we can be fairly sure that it was in its very early days of operation - certainly the loco (4491) looks immaculate in the clip, free from the inevitable grease and oil stains that soon started to build up around the joins in the streamlined casing. At the risk of appearing slightly vain, this notion of people making a special trip to see the new streamliner trains was the inspiration behind the opening section of my Grantham article in the BRM 2013 Annual.

 

According to the Summer 1938 timetable (which would have been little different from Sept 1937), in the two hours between 5.0 and 7.0pm, our photographer friend would have witnessed the following:

Leeds-King's Cross (dep Grantham 5.1)

'Up' Queen of Scots Pullman

'Down' Coronation (as per film)

King's Cross-Newcastle (dep Gantham 6.5)

'Down' Yorkshire Pullman

'Down' Silver Jubilee

as well as numerous local services starting and terminating.

 

Definitely worth being late home for tea for!

Wot, no goods trains? 

Andy

64723 was a Spital Bridge loco from September 1956, so this will be a Toton - Peterborough East service (not just coal - I wonder what was in the numerous sheeted low sided wagons).

Andy