Trog

There was a short platform right next to the power box at Euston known as the restaurant car dock. But I don't know how it was used. If restaurant cars were shunted in there for resupply, or kept there until needed in a train formation. Or if perhaps supplies were brought in and distributed from there to the restaurant cars as they sat in the passenger platforms.

3 hours ago, Ncarter2 said:

Agreed, complete waste of money, however we do ourselves no favours. As we live in a blame culture and common sense does no longer exist, it is hardly a surprise these situations arise. The fact renewals are largely completed by contractors, who will deliver what is set out with no concept of constructive discussion is now a fact of how things work. If that means a renewal adjoins another, but the spec set out inadvertently leaves a gap of say 5 sleepers, you can bet those delivering will leave those 5 sleepers. Again, interpretations on mileage will factor. Gone and forgotten are the days where engineers could be engineers and make decisions. 

Back in the early days of Railtrack I worked for a contractor and Railtrack HQ in their wisdom moved us off our traditional patch and gave us a contract elsewhere, it was evident that the local Railtrack engineers did not want us there. Partly because we had displaced their mates and partly because we put in loads of variation requests as their specifications for the work were dreadful. They eventually got so fed up with us that they decreed that we should just do what the specification said and that they would not be issuing any more variations so don't bother asking.

A couple of weeks later I am given a specification asking for new concrete CWR plain line to be installed from A miles XX yrds to A miles XXXX yrds. Fair enough you might think except for the fact that this mileage included a double junction. A variation having been refused it was so tempting to just gas axe the lead and diamond and lay in the requested plain line. But I thought Trog someone has to be the adult here, and I also thought that regardless of the stupid orders it would probably still be me that got fired when the s**t hit the fan on the following Monday morning.

So I did the sensible thing and curtailed the relaying job at the crossing joint of the lead. As the S&C was bullhead I also finished the relaying with a 30' - 0" length of new bullhead on hardwood sleepers. As you must not change the sleeper material within two sleepers of a joint, and the crossing joint was also an IBJ. Taking the flatbottom right up to the crossing joint and just managing the sleeper transition with a couple of flatbottom pan11 baseplated hardwoods would have been slightly nearer the letter of the specification. If that mattered much compared with me cutting 150 odd yards off the length of the job. But would have gifted the local maintainer with two pairs of worn bullhead to new flat bottom lift and junction insulated plates. A potential nightmare for the maintainer as finding a pair of them when they inevitably decide to break on a snowy February night would not be fun.

Sure enough a couple of weeks later one of the Railtrack Engineers was complaining about the unauthorised changes to the specification and also wanting to know why I had done some of the relaying in timber sleepered bullhead, when my betters had specified flatbottom concrete.

3 hours ago, Ncarter2 said:

Agreed, complete waste of money, however we do ourselves no favours. As we live in a blame culture and common sense does no longer exist, it is hardly a surprise these situations arise. The fact renewals are largely completed by contractors, who will deliver what is set out with no concept of constructive discussion is now a fact of how things work. If that means a renewal adjoins another, but the spec set out inadvertently leaves a gap of say 5 sleepers, you can bet those delivering will leave those 5 sleepers. Again, interpretations on mileage will factor. Gone and forgotten are the days where engineers could be engineers and make decisions. 

I had specified a track relaying job through a platform with catch pits and stated that short ended concrete sleepers were to be used to fit the track round them. As I thought the practice of using timber sleepers that cost more, lasted half as long and were an un-necessary discontinuity in the track was a bad idea. {3" and 6" short ended concrete sleepers having been a standard catalogue item in BR* days.}  *(Before Railtrack)

The contractors came back stating that short ended sleepers were no longer available, so I double checked with the manufacturers engineer that it was still OK with the newer designs of sleeper, and told the contractor to get a diamond cutting saw and chop three or four inches off some normal ones then.

The reply was that I would not be able to find anyone from Railtrack willing to sign that off so they would have to use timber. The look on their faces when I asked for a pen and paper and wrote them an instruction to do it on the spot. 

Ordered a little something from Hattons that was sent to me via Amazon.

15th of Dec email reported shipped.

17th of Dec email reported to be out for delivery.

17th of Dec tracking button on delivery email reported parcel had been delivered on 16th Dec.

Just as a matter of interest should you spot an Amazon delivery van, could you please report back as to if it is a  DeLorean or one of the old fashioned Police Box conversions.

However back in the present there is still no sign of the parcel and no delivery man was seen on my security cameras, also none of my neighbours have seen it.

One thing my cameras did pick up a couple of weeks ago was an Amazon delivery driver dropping a parcel for a nearby house on my wheelie bin and literally running away. I can only assume that his guide dog had forgotten his reading glasses as the proper delivery address house is right on the road, painted bright orange and has a six foot long name board on its front wall facing the road and set back from the road by just three feet.

With that sort of cowboy service,it is no wonder parcels are going missing.

E-mail from Hattons today 23-12-22 they are going to refund my money, but I won't be getting the coach I ordered. Can only assume that one of the Amazon delivery bloke or his friends children will be getting it for Christmas instead.

On 12/12/2022 at 17:59, melmerby said:

Ordered 6 LMS coaches, all supposedly in stock, card payment authorised  (via passcode) for £244, then site froze and later crashed.

Logged in again, basket still showing 6 coaches awaiting purchase, so clicked buy again. Went to card authorisation again but no passcode was shown, no authorisation possible.

Didn't get an email within 10mins or so, tried phoning Hattons but now shut for the day, so went back into the basket and it now said one coach was OOS (several showing when I ordered!)

So I removed the now OOS coach, order went straight through (no further card authorisation required)

Website does not now show the OOS coach.

 

Still haven't had an e-mail about the order, but it is showing as open in my account

 

Very strange.

 

 

 

 

 I notice that there are a couple more types of coach available today than there were yesterday. So might be worth another look.

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

When I hear Isaiah 40:3-4 "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted and every mountain and hill brought low; the crooked places shall be made straight and the rough places smooth." - which comes up at this time of year - I have in my mind's eye J.C. Bourne's lithograph of Tring cutting:

 

 

His Kilsby Tunnel is very obviously modelled on a Renaissance Nativity:

 

 

[Embedded links to Wikimedia Commons.]

In the days before elf and safety I worked on my own at night in both those places. Tring Cutting on a reasonably still night is quite a strange place. All the sounds of the countryside seem to just go straight over the top and it is so quiet in the bottom of the cutting that your ears ring, and all you can hear is the occasional sound of water running in a catch pit that West Coast Route Muddle missed filling with ballast.

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You shouldn't say things like that. It makes me go off looking things up!

 

The patron saint of engineers is St Patrick, on the grounds that he introduce masonry to Ireland. But St Eligius is the patron saint of REME, chiefly due to his unusual but effective method for shoeing horses. The patron of railway workers is St Catherine of Alexandria, chiefly, it seems, on account of her wheel. 

 

In the Greek Orthodox Church, St Paisios the Athonite is the patron saint of signalmen, although I think the Church has military signallers in mind, he having been such during the Greek Civil War. More generally, St Gabriel the Archangel, as the conveyor of messages, seems to fill that role. 

I knew of some of those which is why I specified railway engineers (and even then I was thinking more of the Civil Engineers department) rather than railways generally. Probably best not to be blamed for causing demarcation disputes in heaven,

On 06/12/2022 at 10:40, wombatofludham said:

I've often wondered if St. Ansted is the patron saint of low fare airline passengers.

I have long thought that Saint Emeric of Hungary should be the patron saint of railway engineers.

As he was St Stephen's son.

Could it have been an engine used for local trip workings, misheard.

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

............

 

All the track was relaid quite recently; IIRC about five years ago, but definitely since the transfer of signalling to Basingstoke in 2012. The patina developing on the new Tata rail is quite attractive you can tell we now get water jetting down this far in the leaf-fall season!

 

John

The colour will be due to Network Rail using Wear Resisting A rail as standard these days instead of the Normal Grade rail that was used previously. Wear Resisting A contains a little more manganese and this makes it rust to a more red brown colour than Normal grade rail which tended to a more grey brown colour. 

The pads and nylons used suggest that these particular rails are of the 113A section. With G44 and EG47 sleepers the most useful diagnostic is the corners of the pads as this difference can be seen even when the nylons colours are obscured by rust and dirt. On these sleepers a square cornered pad tells those who know their P-Way that the rail is 113A, while a pad with the corner trimmed off at 45' says CEN60. 

10 hours ago, Southernman46 said:

................................. The apparent access benefit of standard PC's soon disappeared anyway following the adoption of conductor rail vicinity zone (non)working. IMHO A practice resulting from the actions of fools & idiots that ham-strung decent DC proficient aware Engineers...............

Interesting as back in the day some of our staff used to sit on the con rail to eat their sandwiches, as it was at a more comfortable sitting height than the running rails. Truly the past is a foreign country they do things differently there.

It was also easy on safety courses to spot which trainers had worked in 3rd rail areas. Those who had not were wildly over dramatic about the dangers of having an electric rail under foot. As if it was a 25Kv overhead wire that had decided to descend from on high. Those who had DC experience were more just mind the juice lads.

13 hours ago, rodent279 said:

What is the current NR standard clip?

The green FC1504 fastclip (Purple if sheridised) used on G44 and EG47 concrete sleepers and the more recent designs of steel sleeper. For timber sleepers with NRS1, NRS2 or Combi baseplates fitted, the blue E2007 Pandrol e clip is used.

On 25/11/2022 at 18:59, Kris said:

Can't say for the past but this is an image of current practice taken a few years ago on an organised walk across the Royal Albert Bridge. 

 

I thought that current practice was to have a third rail sited on the sleeper ends usually on the 6' side and 3" above the plane of the running rails?

21 hours ago, Stephen Freeman said:

Possibly, no probably not normal bullhead (maybe bridge rail), if it was then the chairs would be L1s (more commonly called Bridge chairs as they sit better on longitudinal timbers, normal chairs would be too wide).

L1 chairs are for use with ordinary 95lb RBS bullhead rail, they are often used at the heel end of switches as the rails are still often too close together to allow the use of two S1 / AS1 chairs. The even smaller M1 chairs are most often seen used in the middle area of slips where the rails are really packed together. While L1 and M1 chairs can be used on long timbers it is better to avoid particularly the M1 type as their smaller foot print increases the load per unit area on the surface of the long timber. There is however a special chair similar to an M1 designed for smaller cross section long timbers, where the chair screws are angled inwards to reduce the chance of them bursting the side out of the timber.

Square type SHC clips.

On 25/11/2022 at 17:46, The Stationmaster said:

....................

 

There was no sign of any concrete sleepers being pulled out and in any case that would only have been where both lines had CWR.  But it wouldn't have been any use on the WR as the region was still using concrete sleepers with SCH clips for CWR at that time whereas the SR didn't use SCH clips.  Some the recovered rail - if it was flat bottom might have been used as service rails for WR CWR laying but all the long welded rail which went in of the Region in those days was new.  The WR later changed from SCH to Pandrol clips but that meant brand new sleepers being used as the fixings on the sleepers were different for the two types and were cast into the concrete in both cases.

SHC clips were first used on the WR having been introduced by one of their Civil Engineers Jack Skull, hence the clips were I believe known as Skull Hoop Clips on the WR, whereas they were known as Spring Hoop Clips on the LMR.

SHC were eventually the second choice of rail clip for BR being the last non Pandrol type to be despensed with. They were a very good clip that held the rail well without cutting into the nylons the way the original Pan401 clips did. However they could be a bastard to un-cilp especially the swallow tail version, and the cast in hoops tended to break if the sleepers (F19 type) were used on tight radii traversed by locos with longer fixed wheel bases. 

The SR did not use them as the clip had to be worked sideways from the rail, so you could not clip up or un-clip the side of the rail nearest the juice rail. The later Pandrol Fastclip was also avoided by the ex SR area P-Way and by myself for DC line (CWJ) work for the same reason. Until headquarters ordered us to use it, as reducing the number of sleeper types in production saved them money.

4 hours ago, big jim said:

Sometimes I do think they give a long estimate so that when they manage to open it earlier than planned they’ll look good! 

Also always remember to make the estimate for the option that gives the best result in engineering terms the cheapest. Not really cheating as it will probably save the suits money in the long run anyway.

On 11/11/2022 at 16:21, lmsforever said:

Reading this thread has reminded me that in the early sixties  Quainton to  Verney junction was used to store wagons for scrap plus some very old coaches of uncertain age all nose tail and surprisingly not vandalised 

Hardly surprising as when I worked out there in the 1980's (including on a derailment at Verney Junction). It was still so far out in the sticks that even the cows looked bored and lonely. In fact it was so much the middle of no where that we were able to just pile up all the smashed up sleepers from the derailment hundreds of them in a big pile and set light to them without getting any complaints. All though that may have been partly due to us being hidden by the smoke screen generated by burning wet sleepers in the pouring rain.

In Watford Yard there is/was a single point blade similar in form to a single bladed catchpoint set into a siding that used to be used for oil discharge. The way the point faces however means that it acted to prevent accidental access to the siding, NOT exit. So as it is not a catch point and has the opposite function to a trap point, what would it be called?

19 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

There actually was one 57 foot TPO in this style though the majority were 60 foot. The single 57' one didn't have the toilet. I assume it had more of the sorting racks there instead, but I don't know for sure. That aside as a 1970s 'toy' the body isn't that bad as a representative model. I look forward to your makeover, Darius!

So the 57 footer was the odd one out and the 60 foot examples were the bog standard ones.

A lot depends on where you are working, IF there is a good clean cess that is the safest place to walk, but you would probably have to walk a long way to find a cess that was not a minefield of scrap, rabbit holes and bushes these days.

The four foot is definitely a safer place to walk than the 6' and 10', as you will only be approached by one train at a time and should know its likely direction of approach and have knowledge of which tracks to avoid because of bi-directional signalling. The ballast in the 6' and 10' is also likely to be heaped up into CWR shoulders which gives a very dodgy walking surface. Where I worked the 10' was also only 6' wide sometimes a little less, so no benefit there and you would be two tracks away from safety.

I was once on a PTS course where the trainer asked how I would proceed from an access point to a site of work on the furthest track a few 100 yards down the line. I said that I would walk in the 4' of the outside line who's traffic I would be facing, keeping a lookout for approaching trains on all lines, and that when I had to cross from one side of the line to the other. I would check for approaching trains before crossing at 90' stepping over the rails and continuing to look both ways for approaching trains.

The trainer said no you walk in the cess facing traffic, to which I said that the cesses were usually littered with scrap and rubbish, rabbit holes, catchpits with dodgy lids and that encroaching bushes would foul your line of site. Surely you are not recommending that I walk somewhere so hazardous.

The trainer then stated that this was in an ideal world, and asked me how I would proceed in such a place. I stated that I would drive my van down the cess to opposite the site of work. On getting out of my van I would check for approaching trains before crossing at 90' stepping over the rails and continuing to look both ways for approaching trains. The trainer then said that you could not drive down the cess, to which I stated that he had said that this was an ideal world, and in my view of an ideal world the cess would be driveable. The rest of the class having agreed he moved on and did not ask me anything else, having been reminded why it was unwise to try and pick on the Technical Staff.

On one memorable PTS resit the trainer came into the class to find the local head Relaying Supervisor and myself a long serving STO sitting at the front desk smiling at him, you could almost see the words why me cross his mind. He was right too any attempt to get any of the rest of the class to answer a question, was met with blank looks, of why are you asking us? Providing answers to this sort of thing is what those two at the front are for. So we ended up answering most of the questions, usually with answers that while correct were not the ones he was looking for. He was probably glad to see the back of the lot of us.

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2 hours ago, Jeremy C said:

Are they void meters? These aren't something I have any experience of and I don't recognise them, but Edwin_m's observation that they are adjacent to a joint made me wonder, since this is exactly where you would place them.

That was my first thought, but I would have expected more of them as you would not just pack one or two sleepers. Sighting boards would also be an easier way to lift out a dipped joint.

British wide to gauge 113A Cv trap point.

Bullhead B switch trap with guard rail to keep derailed vehicles more or less in line. Does more or less the same thing as the wide to gauge trap but any derailed vehicles land on much easier to fix track.

Guard rails are to be fitted on the outer tracks of viaducts and longer bridges (30m+) (unless the parapet wall is considered sufficiently robust to do the job of being a derailment kerb on its own), these are not check rails.

Like trap and catch points there is a difference. In current practice check rails are usually attached to the running rails and control or check the position and angle of wheels by rubbing on the back of the wheel flanges. Guard rails usually have there own separate chairs, baseplates or in the case of concrete sleepers clip housings. Guard rails are intended to keep derailed vehicles running reasonably parallel to the line of the track by providing a barrier to the sideways movement of any derailed wheels, and so guarding against any derailed vehicle making a bid for freedom by diving sideways off a structure.

To be considered a suitable derailment kerb the parapet should reach at least 300mm above rail level and consist of a structural metallic member, 300mm + thickness of reinforced concrete or 450mm+ of brickwork.  The guard rails should extend for 60'-0" off each end of the structure and there should be a set of butterfly catching rails off the end of the guard rails at ends from which trains may approach.

Also while minor damage may be acceptable in the cause of preventing major harm. it is better still if you can avoid both with a little thought. Particularly if there is a possibility that you might end up being roped in to help carry the replacement sleepers etc.  

Could you control the extra section of 4TC isolation with a gap fitted with a magnet controlled reed switch? Then attach a magnet to the underside of the 4TC so that it isolates the extra section from the rest of the layout when stopped in its stabled position. I assume the internal wiring of the 4TC would then couple the extra isolated section to the main bay platform isolated section, but turning off the power to the main isolated section would also de-energise the extra section as there would be no power for the 4TC to transmit.

If anything not magnet fitted was stabled in the bay platform the reed switch would stay in the on position, and turning off the main isolated section would then not affect the extra isolating section needed only by the 4TC.