Fleetfoot Mike

The LNWR Society reprinted the Marshalling Circular for July, August and September 1910.  This includes the North to West expresses.  Copies sometimes come up on eBay

 

They may have later copies including the LMS period in their archives at the Study Centre which is open to the public at certain weekends throughout the year.  Some GWR records are also at Kew

I have a query in with Search Engine at the NRM - overdue a visit

Do you have a date for this?

Sadly, no: as I understand it 'early '30s', as that's what I was asking about.

Just been furnished with a couple of example workings from the era. I think I need a bigger fiddle yard!

13.10 Crewe – Taunton

Engine
CK (GW) Liverpool – Bristol
BTK(GW) Liverpool – Bristol
BCK (GW) Shrewsbury (Birkenhead) – Taunton
BTK (LMS) Liverpool – Taunton
CK (LMS) Liverpool – Taunton
RC (GW/LM alt) Liverpool – Taunton
BTK (LMS) Liverpool – Taunton
BCK (GW) Manchester – Taunton
CK (GW) Manchester – P. Road (Pembrey)
BTK (GW) Manchester – P. Road (Pembrey)
BCK (GW) Birkenhead – P. Road (Pembrey)
BC (GW) Bristol - Taunton
T (GW) Bristol – Taunton

08.45 Plymouth – Crewe
All GWR stock
Engine
BCK Pontypool Rd (Cardiff) – Shrewsbury (Birkenhead)
BCK Plymouth – Shrewsbury (Birkenhead)
RC Weston SM – Shrewsbury
BCK Plymouth – Crewe (Glasgow)
BTK Plymouth - Crewe (Liverpool)
CK Plymouth - Crewe (Liverpool)
BTK Plymouth - Crewe (Liverpool)
BCK Newton A (Paignton) – Crewe (Manchester)
BTK Newton A (Paignton) - Bristol (Bradford)
CK Newton A (Paignton) - Bristol (Bradford)
BTK Newton A (Paignton) - Bristol (Bradford)

Thanks for asking at least one of my followup questions

I was about to wonder both about building style/colour, as well as who was responsible for the signalling (although my interest is 10 years post-Grouping).

Chipping in here as a wargamer as well as railway modeller: the important thing from my point of view as a club chairman is to get people in the door of the hobby, and to do so while encouraging what passion they came in with, be it (as one of my favourite historical rule writers has it) 'space pixies' or whatever. The fact that they are interested in moving miniatures on a table/putting trains on a track is a far far bigger step than exactly what they model or play. If they get to do that in a supportive and friendly environment, who knows what will ensue - things rub off  

There are a number of members of our club who joined us to play Warhammer, Warmachine or other fantasy/SF quasi-wargames, and many of them are now deep into various historical era (to quote one of them: "You know, I can't remember the last time I painted a figure without going to check what colour trousers it should have worn for the period"). Heck, time was when I as a railway modeller would have been happy with anything RTR in GWR green or LMS black or crimson on my proposed layout - now I'm trying to track down exactly which loco I should be attempting to model and tracking down kits for stuff that is in period People evolve, and grow into different aspects of their hobby - if we feel that /our/ particular branch is the Grail, then we shouldn't belittle or criticise, but engage. 

Baxters lists them.  A lot started to receive BF from around 1924 but some never did. Do you have a specific loco in mind?

Anything that might have run on your/my favourite line around ‘34, that hasn’t been converted

[you do realise I blame you entirely for my current LNWR-locos-in-LMS-service obsession :) ]

Wondering does anyone have a pointer to a list of if/when individual Cauliflowers received Belpaire firebox conversions, please? My Google-fu is weak today (and frustrating).

Thanks in advance...

Yes, I imagine you'll have to be pretty creative as I don't recall much RTR motive power in the photos I've seen from the time period you're after. LNWR afficionados would probably consider me a heretic, as personally I think the last of the LNWR classes looked the best they ever did in BR days with a second handle on the smokebox door instead of a wheel. That and the local connection has resulted in me picking up both of Bachmann's excellent LNWR efforts so far in that form.

 

If in a sudden change of heart you decide that both wall and tenant have to go and you'd like a play with Craven Arms, give me a shout; Craven Arms and District Model Railway Circle have 25-30 or so feet (I forget!) of under refurbishment but operational Craven Arms which I'm sure we could arrange for you to see if you're over this way some time.

The OR Dean Goods (subject of much controversy in this parish) appears to have a rather handily spaced wheelbase for certain 0-6-0's, which might be interesting.

Re CADMRC, I just found you on FB the other day, and as I'm long overdue for a trip up the Mynd to blow the cobwebs away sometime next year, I'd love to take you up on that while I'm in the area 

This is the second time I have mentioned this today (in a thread on Fairford) so sorry for the repetition.

The station was not really planned to be a BLT; it was just built as through station and happened to be where the money ran out, so the rest of the line never got built.

I'm reminded of Longville on the Wenlock branch, which after it was shut for passenger traffic, also become the de facto terminus. In a reversal of the above, it was essentially a loop with headshunts top and tail, and the main line then continued to the now-disused single platform and stopped. 

As a slightly amused aside, despite being a GWR fan for the most part, I appear to be developing a considerable obsession for LNWR engines in LMS service. (Apart from anything else, they do seem to contribute a lot to the motive power of the lines through Craven Arms.)

I foresee quite a bit of kit-building in my future, somehow.

So, I aimed for what someone else on here aptly once coined, a 'train set' result, not a show-case model.

The wargamers' term for it is 'passes the two foot test'.

Nice job, though: I am suitably inspired (*eyes ever-growing eBay saved search list*).

I know...

 

But everyone expects it to be GWR because it's a pannier. And the copper kettle fans like to think of them as their own...

Some of....

No use to me at all, sadly.

Answering one of my initial questions, I find this photo in the LNWR society catalog: http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Photographs/PhotoDetails.php?Cltn=ECL&Pnum=183 - a Prince Of Wales obviously pulling a joint train

 

No. 25751 LNW cab roof, Ross pop safety valves, LMS lamp irons. Number on cab side, LMS on tender. Shed plate 4A - Shrewsbury. Standing in the station with a southbound train of four GWR bogie clerestories. Single pitch awning on left, ridge and furrow roof across tracks on right. GW cattle wagons in yard beyond railings on right. Craven Arms. R3F

A Prince of Wales would be quite fun to have in 00 - methinks that's a kit job

Living only a few minutes from the location being discussed, this makes for interesting reading. It had crossed my mind that a fictional N&W station influenced by Marsh Brook (the space seems strange!) like you're planning would make a nice 'railway in the landscape' layout, and that putting said station at Marsh Farm Junction would add interest with traffic to and from Much Wenlock joining or leaving the main line. If such a station had existed, perhaps Marsh Brook never would have. I've put this idea on the backburner for now as I could do with a location more suited to my joint WR/SR focused fleet, but I do hope to return to it one day.

Still somewhat torn, I have to admit There's also the 8'x1'6" plan for Longville... Decision time by Christmas. 

In an ideal world I've always wanted to do Craven Arms, but that's a retirement project once I get the workshop tenant and a wall removed, neither of which I really want to do right now (the tenant's nice, and the wall's holding his shelving up!) Besides, I want to practice on something smaller first

The "loop" at MB was much shorter than you've drawn (more like the SRS drawing) and was not a full loop because it only had trailing access from the up line not facing.

Looking at the old OS map I do indeed appear to have it about twice as long as it should be. It's probably enough to work one or two wagons into the kickback: one wonders if prototypically they'd have been hand/rope/horse shunted?

Why?

 

The position of the Home Signal is irrelevant in terms of shunting an Up train because provided it's at danger the yard points would not be locked.  If traffic for Marsh Brook was formed front the train would stop where it was most convenient to cut-off behind the Marsh Brook destined wages and the engine would then draw those wagons forward clear of the connection and set them back into the siding.  The stopping position would be different if the Marsh brook traffic was formed rear but than the shunt might well block the level crossing so having it on the front of an Up train would make more sense plus the position of the station on steep gradients would require the wagons being shunted to be marshalled next to the engine.

 

In view of the steep gradients it was no wonder that 'shunting across the road' was normally prohibited. 

Ah - I was hoping the Voice Of Signalling Wisdom would show up

Many thanks for the insight - slowly getting my head around proper prototype practice.

Giving it serious thought - the yard looks to be surprisingly interesting to work for only 5 points and a single slip (hurry up, Peco!), and the actual station at *almost* real length takes up under 12', which would leave some more space for open countryside.

Also, the reason for the fictional name is that it's from Malcom Saville's "Lone Pine" books, and Onnybrook pretty much IS Marshbrook.

Hrm - looking at https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwt/S2965.htm there's an up home short of the crossover... Guessing that means an up goods would stop there, uncouple and draw forward what was being dropped off, thereby clearing the section of mainline parallel to the up loop if it needed to run around wagons?

Amusing notes from the 1933 Sectional Appendix:

Marsh Brook

Down Local Freight Trains [to Hereford, in other words]

Guards of the down local freight trains must inform the signalman at Church Stretton whether they require to stop at Marsh Brook or not, and whether there are wagons to be detatched: the signalman will inform Marsh Brook accordingly.

Up Local Freight Trains attaching Wagons

Wagons to be attached at Marsh Brook to the up local freight trains, must be picked up rough, and taken to Church Stretton to be marshalled there.

Shunting Trains

No train must be shunted from one main line to the other at Marsh Brook for another train to pass, excepting in the case of a mishap.

So this, according to R A Cooke, is Marsh Brook (consistency in spelling was not a thing!) at the time I'm aiming for.... Up (Church Stretton/Shrewsbury) is to the right.

The kickback siding alongside the platform appears to have been for coal. Makes for interesting shunting!

As far as I can see, for a down train, you'd stop short of the crossover, detach the appropriate wagons for the yard, draw forward, then cross over to the up loop and drop them off: wagons for the kickback could be picked up straightaway, wagons for the other siding you'd have to run around by leaving them in the up loop?

For an up train, the sensible approach would seem to be to stop short of the up end of the loop: not quite sure how you'd handle shunting the yard....

These wayside country stations on the S&H had relatively small goods yards; see my station Berrington and Eye just into Herefordshire which had but one siding and no goods shed!

 

In the working timetable there was only one local goods train a day in each direction.  Bigger towns such as Church Stretton had larger goods facilities with more frequent stopping trains.  At the smaller locations, coal was offloaded directly onto carts without the use of staithes. 

 

However, there would have been around 100 train movements on the line a day so plenty of scope for different stock.

Indeed - I have a 1936 WTT (as mentioned above) which makes interesting reading. I'm still toying a bit between keeping the plan as is, therefore making it a somewhat bigger station than Marsh Brook, and thus getting more local goods trains to stop, as the likes of Church Stretton or Dorrington do, or cutting it down to being, essentially, Marsh Brook.

Both are kind of tempting the latter means I get a railway that's a bit more 'set in the landscape' and not rammed with track, the former more operational fun.

A bit of playing with RailModeller after a browse of Cooke section 63 in my lunch break...

Extended the down refuge siding and the up loop, moved the goods shed a bit, got rid of that no-really-good-reason kickback siding, moved the signal box to by the level crossing (which I also just added). Essentially it's a simplified Church Stretton - two versions, the second having a slightly more sprawling goods yard.

Up and down are currently changing at a whim I THINK London/Hereford is to the left at present.

Comments welcome  I think I prefer the second, as that allows for a cattle dock on the siding just below the goods shed, and (as seems to be relatively common) the iong lower siding to have a set of coal staithes along a good part of its length.

I thought that sounded a familiar opening, great minds etc etc. Although mine's set almost half a century after yours

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/96920-stowbury/?p=1811823

 

 

Are you going to be starting a thread in the layout part of RMWeb (if there isn't one already) or just keeping to your Blog?

Heh. Cool. I've gone for a slightly different approach in that my fiction has it that Much Wenlock branch trains (which at this point are still running ) will still terminate at the bigger Craven Arms and Stokesay (as apart from anything else it has a bay, a big goods yard and loco turning/watering facilities), so Onnybrook Junction is at least in part designed as a 'watch quite a lot of the trains go right on by' kind of affair. 

I'll start a thread once I have something physical to show .

Bingo.

Found my copy of RA Cooke section 63, which usefully includes an earlier plan of Church Stretton which looks eminently... ahem... nickable

Also found, to my embarrassment, the copies of the Wild Swan '34 GWR shed allocations and Railway Liveries, 1923-47: London, Midland and Scottish Railway I already own, both of which I re-bought last month

Which station are you modelling, or is it an amalgam of various locations? I ask as the various R H Clarke volumes of 'Great Western Stations' have several, with both track and signalling drawings.

Volume 1 has Pontrilas, Hereford and Moreton-on-Lugg

Volume 2 has Leominster and Ludlow.

Volume 4 has Church Stretton

It's a fictitious station somewhere near Marsh Brook, with a track plan that owes a fair bit to Bromfield/Onibury. 

That was on my list of things to fix (while trying to keep the various clusters of points off the baseboard joins).

I'm still not happy with the goods shed area - the whole crossing with single slip, refuge siding plus loop area making the station long rather than fat fits with most of the stations down the Shrewsbury/Hereford line (and general LMS and GWR practice), but I'm conscious that the goods shed doesn't quite feel right at the moment. Considering putting it on a loop a la Ludlow, or... heh. If I could find my copy of the appropriate volume of Cooke, I'd be better off.