Mikemeg's Workbench - Building locos of the North Eastern & LNER

[Daddyman]

I have no knowledge of the shape of the cut-out for the Westinghouse pump but it must have been possible to withdraw the pump but whether this was upwards or downwards is uncertain. I am afraid that I took the easy way out  and pegged the top portion into the splasher top.. 

 

Just remembered this photo from the old Queen Street museum at York. It appears to have a gaping hole in the splasher top. However we must remember the this was a cosmetic restoration so whether it ran like this is unclear. Also the pump itself lacks the governor on its left. Another point to note that the vertical location of the pump is in the original position which was lower than that in the LNER/BR period which is why the exhaust from the pump emerges from a second hole in the splasher top.

 

Is any one wants to go the whole and make a large hole I can supply a complete pump..

 

Book 5 98_1.jpg

 

ArthurK

Brilliant photo! There's nothing cosmetic about the hole though - they ran like that. My dad remembers having the GA stretched out on the floor at Ken Hoole's house and Ken being baffled that the hole wasn't on the GA. It's visible in one or two of the photos in the Locos Illustrated on the NER 4-4-0s.

The hole looks almost P-shaped in your photo, with the tail of the P accommodating the governor? 

Edited November 5, 2015 by Daddyman

[ArthurK]

Here is another of 1621 in colour. Not as good at showing that hole as the B&W one. Let's call it a suppliment.

 

ArthurK

 

[Daddyman]

Still better than any I've seen, so many thanks. 

The colour photo also confirms the angle-iron where splasher front meets footplate. 

Maybe I'm imagining it, but it also seems to show the frames curving inwards ahead of the smokebox, as shown on the GA. The visible line on the footplate seems to get further away from the footplate edge. 

Edited November 6, 2015 by Daddyman

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS NER 4175 GALLON TENDER

 

The compensated tender chassis is now assembled. Hitherto, Arthur has made provision for CSB's on his tender underframes, which do work well but which can, if the tender is weighted quite heavily (3 - 4 ozs), sit down on their springing losing the symettry on running plate height between loco and tender. With these compensating beams, the tender ride height does stay constant.

 

The front axle, on this tender underframe, is just mounted into the tender chassis sideframes though the two bearing holes have been augmented with 2 mm diameter washers to beef up the bearing surfaces.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 11, 2018 by mikemeg

[Grovenor]

 

Arthur has made provision for CSB's on his tender underframes, which do work well but which can, if the tender is weighted quite heavily (3 - 4 ozs), sit down on their springing

Which can be corrected just by using a thicker wire.

Regards

[ArthurK]

The provision for a CSB is still there but I have added the twin rear beams for those that prefer compensation. The front axle can be made to rock on a 1mm wire wire soldered on the centre of the well tank. This will require a little adjustment the get the tender to ride level. Of course the rigid option is still there.

 

The Q7, for which this tender was designed, did not have pick up gear. The GA that I have, dated 1915, does not have pick-up gear shown and is specifically labelled "Goods & Mineral".

 

ArthurK

[mikemeg]

Someone asked me whether I do any other modelling apart from building 'injins'? Well yes I do though the 'injins' do currently consume most of the modelling time. And, as my old mate Mick Nicholson often reminds me, time to carry on with building the layout while I still can.

 

Anyway, not North Eastern engines but still things ex-NER, here are a few photographs of other things done, or being done, over the last few years. All of these models are scratch built; there are no etches for these prototypes, though some of the lattice posts - but not the lattice girders which are scratch built - are MSE products.

 

The last photo - the ex North Eastern balanced bracket - was my very first attempt at 4 mm signal building, with the first photo - the signal bridge - being the fourth and the gantry the fifth. The part completed signal bridge (Scarborough Londesborough Road) is the sixth signal model. These models owe a great deal to the techniques described by Mick Nicholson in his book on building 4 mm signal models, with some additions i.e. building and using jgs to produce the lattice girders, using plasticard for the dolls, adding the castings to retain the handrail stanchions (1/32" tube), etc.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited November 13, 2015 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER N10

 

Another of these test builds, done a little while ago, now completed except for the sand pipes and a smokebox number plate. This one I've finished near ex-works condition; at least one of these ex-NER locos has to be clean and shiny, though they didn't stay in this condition for very long!

 

Taking these photos quite close up and using the camera's macro mode, does cause some parallax which tends to suggest slopes on vertical lines, where no slopes exist.

 

It's a nice kit, this N10, and would make a reasonable entry point for anyone wanting to start to build Arthur's kits.

 

The numbering on this proved a bit of a challenge. I always use the pressfix HMRS transfers for numbering, etc. and normally these stick without problem. On this loco for some reason the '4' would not stick until the fourth or fifth go. So note to self - don't use this sheet for LMS locos; there are now no '4's.

 

I should thank Paul Gallon (Worsdell Forever) for alerting me to the availability of Halfords Satin Black spray paint which was used on this loco and which produces a very nice even finish.

 

And yet another loco -  the eighth - in the 69xxx range!!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 11, 2018 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER A6 & N10

 

Just for colour comparison. Many of my locos I finish using Railmatch weathered black which is a very matt finish and tends towards dark grey. I've often wondered how far from black (if there is a definitive colour - black) this paint is, so decided to compare the Railmatch weathered black against the Halfords satin black. As the photo shows there is an appreciable difference in colour.

 

This photo also serves to remind me that I've got that lining (on the A6) to do again - twice!!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 11, 2018 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

Earlier in this thread there are photos of D20 No 62360 on a day when it worked an enthusiasts special into Hull. Looking through the photo collection, I came across this one, which must have been taken on the same day. Hull Botanic Gardens shed, a long time home for so many ex-NER passenger classes, also had a sizeable allocation of these ex-GN tanks, used on the many local workings and on the Hornsea and Withernsea branches.

 

Interesting to see all of the enthusaists wandering around the shed roads!

 

At this same period, Hull Dairycoates shed also had a couple of ex-GE F4 2-4-2 tanks though I've never seen any photos of them and don't know why they were allocated there?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited November 18, 2015 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

SCRATCH BUILT LNER A6

 

I finally got around to making the sanding gear for all four of these A6's and have fitted it to the first of them - 69796. The rear sandpipe is just that, a pipe as this was gravity fed; but the front sanding gear was steam driven and so had two pipes which joined at a union just before the open end of the sand pipe. This was fabricated from different diameter wires which were soldered together Not easy to see this assembly on the photograph.

 

Second photo is the real thing, taken in August 1952. This loco, the last survivor of its class, soldiered on until 1953.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 11, 2018 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER Q7

 

Arthur's development work on this, his Q7, is continuing apace with the design and development of the motion work between the frames. The first test build of the chassis, using pre-production etches, is now ongoing though it should be emphasised, this is using pre-production etches and the design will change.

 

I believe that release of the production version of this kit will not be until 2016; Arthur still has some details to finalise.

 

And the cab roof, not yet fixed, is on wrong way round!!!

 

It'll be quite a beast, this one!!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 11, 2018 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS Q7

 

The mainframe assemblies, on the Q7, are now almost complete. The bolted plates which surround the cylinders have two sets of etches provided. The one set has the bolts embossed on them; the alternative set has holes etched to allow these bolts to be represented by small pieces of wire which are soldered into the mainframes and the cylinder surround. I normally opt for the latter - small pieces of .5 mm wire - which are soldered on the back of the mainframes and then trimmed to protrude around .5 mm on the outside of the frames. On these frames there are some thirty such bolts to represent on each frame.

 

Before fitting these tiny pieces of wire I normally add a tiny countersink to each hole (the lower mainframe has been so treated) just a couple of twists with a 1 mm diameter drill but not going right through the frame, again at the rear of the frames, to give the solder something to key into, especially when these wires are trimmed flush at the rear of the frames.

 

The rods were made and fully assembled from which the chassis jig was then set up. The axle guides and axleboxes were then soldered into the mainframes using the chassis jig to positon each axle guide with its axlebox in place. On this chassis I opted for normal width High Level axleboxes on the rear two sets of drivng wheels but used the narrower spacesaver axle guides and axleboxes on the front two sets of driving wheels; this to maximise the space between the axleboxes for the fitting of the inside motion.

 

The coupling rods on this model, as with all of Arthur's models, can be built rigid (one set of etches) or can be built articulated ( a second set of etches) as has been done here and as is exagerated on the photo. The driving wheel springs on this chassis are two layer etches which really does produce a chunky looking spring.

 

On this chassis Arthur has provided for compensation using two sets of compensating beams. These beams will allow around 20 - 30 thou (.5 - .75 mm) of vertical movement on the axles which should be ample to cope with any inequalities in the track. Any more than that and there is probably something wrong with the track levelling!!

 

So, just another thirty or so of those bolts on the lower mainframe and then I can move on to assembling this chassis. And just to emphasise again, this is still a pre-production set of etches and the design of this chassis may change at least in some of the details and as the test build progresses and uncovers any issues.

 

And no, these mainframes are not being spaced to Brunel's 7 foot gauge; just separated to show the compensating beams!!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 11, 2018 by mikemeg

[Dave Holt]

Mmmmm.... not sure four fixed points/pivots gives true compensation (for twist). To leave space for inside valve gear, perhaps some form of springing would be a more effective approach?

Dave.

[mikemeg]

 NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER Q7

 

 

Mmmmm.... not sure four fixed points/pivots gives true compensation (for twist). To leave space for inside valve gear, perhaps some form of springing would be a more effective approach?

Dave.

 

Dave,

 

I've used csb springing on a number of models and I've used compensating beams on others. I can't find any discernable difference in running between the two systems, though I do tend to weight my locos on the heavy side. The very first P4 loco which I scratch built - long before I became aware of springing and compensation - was a T1 4-8-0 tank which was built rigid. The only concession to track inequality, on this loco, was some elongation of the bearings on the two centre pairs of driving wheels - perhaps 10 thou in the vertical plane. I've never had a problem with this loco either picking up current or with adhesion though this one was weighted to fourteen ounces so does tend to 'even out the track'.

 

A lot depends on how level the track is and especially how level rail joints are and I do sometimes wonder whether we overdo the suspension issue on 4 mm locos and underdo the quality of track building.

 

So before assembling the chassis I've bent up the cylinder former and checked its angles in the appropriate slots in the mainframes. All seems ok.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 11, 2018 by mikemeg

[ArthurK]

Mmmmm.... not sure four fixed points/pivots gives true compensation (for twist). To leave space for inside valve gear, perhaps some form of springing would be a more effective approach?

Dave.

 

I have discussed the form of suspension with others (including Mike). Whereas I have to agree that theoretically twist is required on one of the pairs of beams, we considered that P4 modellers would take more care with their trackwork than those modelling in OO. The wheel standards of the latter (and EM) should ensure that, with this twin beam suspension, they stay on the track better than a rigid 0-8-0.

 

Another kit manufacturer uses a similar system but without independent beams.

 

Of course if the builder is so worried about the lack of three point suspension he can resort to springing.

 

ArthurK

[Jol Wilkinson]

While two pairs of beams will allow for vertical changes in the track, they do not allow for any sort of twist. So, while better than a rigid chassis, they aren't as good as the three point type or CSBs, which I would regard as essential for P4.

 

Jol

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER Q7

 

This chassis is slowly proceeding, each step carefully recorded.

 

Many years ago I was lucky enough to work with, though not for, the design function of a major car maker. Here I saw at first hand the dichotomy between the design engineers who work out the detailed design of a new car and the production engineers who then have to work out how the various components and assemblies can be made. There were many instances where the wishes of the design engineers simply could not be met by the production engineers and then a reverse engineering design process was implemented whereby the design was changed to reflect the production engineering constraints. You've probably seen the famous cartoon of a swing showing how the various agencies, involved in its design and production, have interpreted the requirement (cue for someone who has a copy of that cartoon to post it on here!!).

 

Why do I mention this? Well designing these etched kits is a similar exercise. The aim is to produce as near a representation of the prototype as possible, within the constraints of the 4mm scale and the materials available but which, importantly, can be built. Arthur manages to do both the design engineering and the production engineering in a single exercise; the test build is then the acid test of the resulting combination of the two functions.

 

An example of this is the motion bracket and the brake hangar brackets, both of which were actually bolted to the mainframes on the prototype; they did not span the frames. This would be very difficult to do on the model so these components are designed to span the frames and then, after being soldered into slots in the mainframes and surrounded by 'fillets' representing the bolts, the portions between the frames are then removed.

 

Anyway, so far everything Arthur has designed was able to be built, though without any instructions then progress is necessarily slow. I still have to deal with the slots in the mainframes between the third and fourth pairs of driving wheels and one or two other things but this is looking more and more like a locomotive.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 11, 2018 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER Q7

 

The dressing off of the mainframe slots has now been done along with fitting the flanges to the brake hangar support brackets, which have then been cut back to the insides of the mainframes. So a little bit of detail to add to the spring hangar locations and then this chassis can be wheeled and powered. We still have to fully decide on the gearbox choice and location along with choice of motor but, as can be seen from the photo, the third axle back looks favourite for the gearbox location with a 54 : 1 High Level Compact plus gearbox and, ideally, a Mashima 1426 motor mounted 'inclined off vertically by around 20 - 30 degrees' in the firebox and inclined towards the backhead.

 

I just added four single wheeled axles to check the ride height against the tender, which seems ok.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 11, 2018 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER Q7

 

So far, so good - well no major problems encountered, a few small issues identified and reported to Arthur HQ - but now the real acid test begins - clearances. Many of these ex-North Eastern locos - probably most outside cylindered locos of all companies - had very tight clearances between their moving parts; 1/2" was not uncommon. Arthur has designed the motion on this model to approximate to scale thickness which does then place emphasis on accuracy of assembly and fitting, especially in P4 where the clearances are at their tightest.

 

Contrary to good practice, I've added all four sets of drivng wheels, knowing that the third set of drivers will have to be removed to fit the gearbox and final stage gearing but it's necessary to fit the wheels to check those clearances and to check that the loco rides level with the compensating beams at 'neutral'.

 

The balance weights, which were very substantial on these locos, were all situated 180 degrees from the coupling rod journals except the second set of drivers (the driven axle) where the balance weights were offset from the 180 degrees; somewhere midway opposite between the inside and outside reciprocating masses of the big ends on the driven axle, assuming that the big end journals were arranged at 120 degrees to each other as these were three cylinder locomotives.

 

I don't know how long that firebox was but it must have been a 'hell of a chuck' for the fireman to reach the front corners with a shovel full of coal!!

 

So the model does, hopefully, start to resemble a locomotive.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 11, 2018 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER Q7

 

Now comes the tricky bit and here care is needed, great care. Having done the Q5/2 and the B15, both of which are outside cylindered and had the same problems and issues, then I've evolved a sequence for these outside cylindered locos which might just be of use to someone tackling one of these.

 

First thing is to establish the sequence of assembly, before any assembly is undertaken  :-

 

A) Achieve a free running wheeled chassis, with both coupling rods engaged on the crankpin colletts and with the motor and gearbox fitted though the final stage gearing does not necessarily need to have been fixed. Just dry running (not yet fitting) the cylinder block, piston gland/slide bars and connecting rod check the following for clearances :-

 

      i)  The clearance between the front driving wheel crankpin and the rear of the crosshead. This is very tight in P4 and usually needs a recessed crankpin nut i.e. the crankpin nut is fitted reversed so that it is flush with the coupling rod journal.

 

      ii)  That there is sufficient slide room available on the slide bars for the crosshead to move freely to front dead centre and rear dead centre of the connecting rod with the connecting rod engaged with the driving wheel crankpin and the crosshead bearing.

 

      iii) That the piston gland/slide bar casting will mount into the cylinder block such that an imaginary line drawn midway between the two slide bars and parallel to them passes through the exact centre of the driven axle. If this concurrence is absent then something is wrong with the angle of the slidebars!!

 

      iv) That the piston rod will travel from rear dead centre to front dead centre within the cylinder/cylinder gland and will not hit the cylinder front (front dead centre) or fall out of the piston gland (rear dead centre).

 

 B    Cut the slide bars to the correct length and, if necessary, insert any flares into the slide bars. After having done this, then re-check the separation between the slide bars to ensure that the crosshead slides freely and that the two slide bars are both straight and parallel, adjusting where necessary. It is far easier to make these adjustments to the individual free-standing components than those same components when assembled.

 

C) Slide the cylinder block assembly into the mainframes but do not yet fix it. This should be a snug fit though not too tight. The piston gland/slide bar castings can then be fixed to the rear face of each cylinder, ensuring that they are vertical, parallel to the mainframes and inclined at the correct angle (see iii above).

 

D)  Add the motion bracket to the mainfames but do not yet fix. Ideally the motion bracket should be a fairly easy (not loose) fit into the slots in the mainframes Check the fit of the end of the slide bars against the motion plate and identify where these are to be soldered together, still ensuring that they remain at the correct angle to the centre point of the driven axle.

 

E)  Solder the ends of the slide bars to the motion bracket but do not yet solder anything into the mainframes. We now have a sub-assembly consisting of cylinders, piston glands/slidebars and motion bracket which can be removed as a single entity.

 

F)  Fit the small end bearing of the connecting rod into the crosshead and check that the fixing is flush with the rear of the crosshead otherwise those clearances are compromised. Now the con rods and crosshead/piston rods are also sub-assemblies.

 

G) Reinstall the cylinder block/slidebar/motion bracket assembly into the mainframes. Slide each crosshead into its slidebars and engage the big end of the connecting rod with the crankpin collett on the driving axle and fit the crankpin nut.

 

The cylinder/piston gland & slide bar/motion bracket sub-assembly can actually be left unsoldered, simply held in place by the mainframe slots and the footplate, just in case it needs any further adjustment.

 

Sounds involved, this lot, but it isn't too difficult.

 

Doing these test builds does involve a lot of checking of component fits, prior to assembly. But it's not a bad discipline to follow, anyway.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 11, 2018 by mikemeg

[Dave Holt]

Hi Mike.

I've evolved a very similar approach to my chassis construction but always leave the cylinder/slide-bar/motion bracket assembly removable from the chassis, usually attached with a couple of small screws. This makes assembly of outside valvegear much easier and also facilitates painting off the job, so to speak. To check cylinder/slidebar alignment with the driving axle, I sometimes insert a long length of straight piston rod material into the rear of the cylinder as this helps eyeing up of the alignment.

Really enjoy your write-ups of these models, even though they're not my interest in terms of prototypes.

Season's greetings,

Dave.

[mikemeg]

Hi Mike.

I've evolved a very similar approach to my chassis construction but always leave the cylinder/slide-bar/motion bracket assembly removable from the chassis, usually attached with a couple of small screws. This makes assembly of outside valvegear much easier and also facilitates painting off the job, so to speak. To check cylinder/slidebar alignment with the driving axle, I sometimes insert a long length of straight piston rod material into the rear of the cylinder as this helps eyeing up of the alignment.

Really enjoy your write-ups of these models, even though they're not my interest in terms of prototypes.

Season's greetings,

Dave.

 

Dave,

 

Many thanks for the comments. Yes I too leave the cylnder/slide bar/connecting rods sub-assembly removable. On Arthur's kits the loco body/chassis front fixing usually passes through the cylinder assembly and 'traps' the assembly in position and prevents any movement.

 

And may I wish you and all of those who visit or read this thread the very best of season's greetings.

 

Mike

[micklner]

Seasons greetings to you too. B15 is getting near the top of the pile !! First up Bradwell J27, Tender now done, Loco awaits !!

[mikemeg]

Seasons greetings to you too. B15 is getting near the top of the pile !! First up Bradwell J27, Tender now done, Loco awaits !!

 

Mick,

 

I'll look forward to seeing pictures of the J27 build. That's a class which wasn't common in Hull, though Selby had a good number in the early 1950's, so they probably worked into Hull along with Selby's Q6's.

 

If you have any queries on the B15 build just pm me and I'll do what I can.

 

Regards

 

Mike