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I'm being very good and not being drawn by mentions of Mr Bowles et al.

 

You should take a look at "Locomotives of the Great Southern and Western Railway," by Jeremy Clements, Michael McMahon and Alan O'Rourke (mentioned above as editor of New Irish Lines.)

 

It's a treasure trove of old photos and drawings, and information on pre-1925 locos, including Sprite which should be right up your street.

 

 

IMG_7463.jpg.005c5622c35462319ea16aa53afc39ba.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

It's available directly from the publisher, collon999pub999lishing@g999mail.com or from the usual vendor of all things:

 

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/LOCOMOTIVES-GREAT-SOUTHERN-WESTERN-RAILWAY/dp/1527270289/ref=smi_www_rco2_go_smi_1285150262?_encoding=UTF8&hvadid=500909826360&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007850&hvnetw=g&hvpone=&hvpos=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvrand=738623316661319436&hvtargid=pla-1323460316075&ie=UTF8&linkCode=df0&psc=1&tag=googshopuk-21

 

 

(You can omit the 9s, just trying to avoid them getting spammed.)

 

By way of example (and hopefully too bendy to enable anyone to model them without buying the book), here's Sprite, as well as an early loco-carriage:

 

 

 

IMG_7464.jpg.12712ee7f8965382db305897515599dc.jpgIMG_7465.jpg.53d0c0c59dc3c6dad2d77a0ceaeaf1af.jpg

 

There's lots more, like 2-4-0s inherited from the Cork and Youghal Railway, and all sorts of 0-4-2 classes I had never heard of.

 

Alan

 

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Off topic,   well the topic itself has gone off on a jaunt. Not sure of the prefered route to Eire from Eastbourne  probably up to London first then either on to the LNWR for Holyhead or the GWR to Fishguard. Not complaing mind you I know little of the Irish railways and it has been enlightening.

 

Don

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Thanks for thinking of me, Alan, but I’ve got it already. There was some write up on RMweb which mentioned it, and I got it a month or two ago, I try to avoid amazon if I can (say prime and your favourite swear word) so I went straight to the little publishers establishment, which seems the sort of place to go to. Fully agree with your comments, considering the GSWR was the biggest of the old Irish companies, there’s been far too little done on it. (I’ve got Murray & McNeill) It would have been nice to have had a few years before I did some of my recent models, but there you go. So yes, I agree it’s fully recommended. Worth noting that the WLWR gets a full write up, you can appreciate why Castle Rackrent got placed on that line. 

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21 minutes ago, Northroader said:

I try to avoid amazon if I can (say prime and your favourite swear word) so I went straight to the little publishers establishment,

I completely refuse to buy anything through Amazon even if it means extra work to find the original source of a book.

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4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

I have no idea who she is or why she's dressed like that, then.

Obviously, if she was Danish, I'd assume it was just typically 'day wear'.

I feel I might have been cruelly mislead.

Misled, surely?

Mislead suggests an absence of lead. Maybe it’s age?

 

Anyway, she played Lagertha in “Vikings”, which was set well before pre-grouping times. Her name is Kathryn Winnick and she is, apparently, very good at martial arts so not someone you would wish to cross!

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Thank you, Ian, I think one of the models available looks like the combined loco/coach featured in the GSWR locos book a page back. Looking through it, I’m struck by the variety of scales these items are offered in. There are some tempting jobs in there.

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2 hours ago, Northroader said:

Thank you, Ian, I think one of the models available looks like the combined loco/coach featured in the GSWR locos book a page back. Looking through it, I’m struck by the variety of scales these items are offered in. There are some tempting jobs in there.

That's right. It's a model of number 90, a diminutive 0-6-0 originally built with a 1 1/2 compartment coach attached to it for use on the Castleisland branch in Kerry. I gather it wasn't a great success, and they split the loco and coach (which you can read in the photo if you're short sighted like me.) There was a 2nd one. I think it may have been number 100. Number 90 finished her working life on the Courtmacsherry branch along with Argadeen. Then she stood on a plinth on the platform at Mallow until the 1980s when a preservation society rescued her. After the society folded, she had to be rescued again. I'm not sure where she is now, possibly Downpatrick.

 

The other loco shown is Sprite which I like because of her unfeasibly large wheels and unfeasibly small boiler. Presumably, when she was carrying the pay to the outlying stations, she needed to be able to run faster than a horse for just long enough to outrun a horse, in order to escape from any mounted train robbers she might have encountered west of Sallins. (Before anyone accuses me of Paddywhackery, I'd point out that no Fenian was allowed to own a horse worth more than £5 so the train robbers would have to have been members of the ascendancy.)

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8 hours ago, islandbridgejct said:

That's right. It's a model of number 90, a diminutive 0-6-0 originally built with a 1 1/2 compartment coach attached to it for use on the Castleisland branch in Kerry. I gather it wasn't a great success, and they split the loco and coach (which you can read in the photo if you're short sighted like me.) There was a 2nd one. I think it may have been number 100. Number 90 finished her working life on the Courtmacsherry branch along with Argadeen. Then she stood on a plinth on the platform at Mallow until the 1980s when a preservation society rescued her. After the society folded, she had to be rescued again. I'm not sure where she is now, possibly Downpatrick.

 

The other loco shown is Sprite which I like because of her unfeasibly large wheels and unfeasibly small boiler. Presumably, when she was carrying the pay to the outlying stations, she needed to be able to run faster than a horse for just long enough to outrun a horse, in order to escape from any mounted train robbers she might have encountered west of Sallins. (Before anyone accuses me of Paddywhackery, I'd point out that no Fenian was allowed to own a horse worth more than £5 so the train robbers would have to have been members of the ascendancy.)

 

Life in Ireland is a mystery to me. my first thoughts were, was it really that lawless that train robbing was common. The latter comment just confuses me I thought the ascendancy was the landowners who were pocketing as much of the profits from the land as they could would they have been robbing trains or is it some joshing. My Sister is into geneology  and tells me we have Irish great grandparents since my Mother was Catholic I assume they would have been too.

 

Don

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15 minutes ago, Donw said:

Life in Ireland is a mystery to me. my first thoughts were, was it really that lawless that train robbing was common.

 

Cattle raiding is an endemic feature of the Irish mythology but really by the later 19th century most of Ireland had settled down to a peaceable existence with the campaign for Home Rule being pursued by parliamentary means. Of course there was a handful of madcap extremists such as the murderers of Cavendish and Burke in 1882. But that happened in Dublin, not out somewhere beyond the pale.

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Alan, you’ve got me worrying about an Irish Butch Cassidy and his mate on donkeys being pursued by the agents of the GSWR’s manager by the name Harriman, right past the boundaries of law, to a final shootout in Donegal, all because it was the week Sprite was having a boiler washout.

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Cattle raiding is an endemic feature of the Irish mythology

Not just Ireland, Northumberland and the border counties were famous for it. Supposedly the term "Hot Pursuit" originates from the practice of carrying a piece of smouldering turf from the hearth with the band of outraged farmers seeking to get their property back.

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Reminds me of when I used to travel on the train to go to school and when my luck was in there would be an ancient matchboarded van composite coach built circa 1920 at the end of the train.  It was a lovely thing and as you would expect I always would sit in the first class section, though by then of course its former first class status no longer counted for anything.  I don't know what happened to that old coach, but I'd like to think one of the preservation societies purchased it when it was finally withdrawn.

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5 hours ago, Donw said:

 

Life in Ireland is a mystery to me. my first thoughts were, was it really that lawless that train robbing was common. The latter comment just confuses me I thought the ascendancy was the landowners who were pocketing as much of the profits from the land as they could would they have been robbing trains or is it some joshing. My Sister is into geneology  and tells me we have Irish great grandparents since my Mother was Catholic I assume they would have been too.

 

Don

I'm sorry Don and others. I was just being silly.

 

I started off with a genuine question: why did Sprite have such big wheels and such a small boiler. It must have ended up out of breath, sorry - steam, very quickly, even with such a light train.

 

Then I suggested a silly hypothesis: that it was to outrun train robbers.

 

Then I wondered who the train robbers might be, and reasoned that, as the indigenous population couldn't own horses, it must have been the nobility. (But of course, they already owned the shares in the railway and were coining it.)  Besides, by the late 19th century, Ireland was largely fairly peaceful so there wouldn't have been much scope for this sort of thing. When things got hot, between 1919 and 1921, the boys generally just got their friends in the signal box to stop the train (sometimes at gunpoint, so they could argue duress.)

 

There was a train robbery at Sallins, but in the 1970s, not the 1870s, leading to the wrongful conviction of 3 men (who beat confessions out of themselves with no help from the Gardai at all, at all): https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/wronged-man-still-seeking-answers-40-years-after-sallins-train-robbery-1.3673264

 

There are no good pictures of the train robbery online, so here's a link instead to the 12.30 for Sallins (and probably points beyond) leaving Kingsbridge hauled by No. 321:

 

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000303617

 

That's enough silliness from me. Please drag the thread back on topic, and tell me to shut up if I pipe up again.

 

I do wonder about that combination of small boiler and big wheels though, even for such a light load.

 

Alan

 

 

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3 hours ago, AdamsRadial said:

Not just Ireland, Northumberland and the border counties were famous for it. 

The A721 on its way north from Moffat up Annandale comes to a deep hollow in the hills, just before it starts to decend into Tweeddale, known as The Devil's Beeftub. So called because it was used by the reivers to hide stolen cattle. Being surrounded by hills with only a narrow valley entrance it is well hidden and was easy to defend. 

 

Jim

Edited by Caley Jim
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You can see the need for a pay train on the more remote lines with not much traffic. I was on a newly overhauled V2, down the ECML to Northallerton, then heading down the Ripon line as far as Starbeck, and we were stopped at a lonely signalbox, and it turned out it was a payclerk going all along the line with his pay box thumbing a lift to the next place. At that time there was quite a decent service freight and passenger, before Beeching came along. 

In the Sallins train picture, I see it’s passing through quite an important junction.

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1 hour ago, islandbridgejct said:

I'm sorry Don and others. I was just being silly.

 

I started off with a genuine question: why did Sprite have such big wheels and such a small boiler. It must have ended up out of breath, sorry - steam, very quickly, even with such a light train.

 

Then I suggested a silly hypothesis: that it was to outrun train robbers.

 

Then I wondered who the train robbers might be, and reasoned that, as the indigenous population couldn't own horses, it must have been the nobility. (But of course, they already owned the shares in the railway and were coining it.)  Besides, by the late 19th century, Ireland was largely fairly peaceful so there wouldn't have been much scope for this sort of thing. When things got hot, between 1919 and 1921, the boys generally just got their friends in the signal box to stop the train (sometimes at gunpoint, so they could argue duress.)

 

There was a train robbery at Sallins, but in the 1970s, not the 1870s, leading to the wrongful conviction of 3 men (who beat confessions out of themselves with no help from the Gardai at all, at all): https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/wronged-man-still-seeking-answers-40-years-after-sallins-train-robbery-1.3673264

 

There are no good pictures of the train robbery online, so here's a link instead to the 12.30 for Sallins (and probably points beyond) leaving Kingsbridge hauled by No. 321:

 

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000303617

 

That's enough silliness from me. Please drag the thread back on topic, and tell me to shut up if I pipe up again.

 

I do wonder about that combination of small boiler and big wheels though, even for such a light load.

 

Alan

 

 

 

Alan no need to apologise. I did wonder if you were just joshing  but my ignorance of Ireland could have meant it was something I was unaware about. I am all for a bit of lightheartedness the is too much seriousness around.

 

Don

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4 hours ago, Annie said:

Reminds me of when I used to travel on the train to go to school and when my luck was in there would be an ancient matchboarded van composite coach built circa 1920 at the end of the train.  It was a lovely thing and as you would expect I always would sit in the first class section, though by then of course its former first class status no longer counted for anything.  I don't know what happened to that old coach, but I'd like to think one of the preservation societies purchased it when it was finally withdrawn.

And this is the type of coach I would always look out for back when I was a schoolgirl.  This isn't 'my' one it's a preserved one that's been fully restored.  Back when I was going to school 'my' one was painted a dusty faded shade of red.  There's a good chance that 'my' one did survive though as a good few of them have made it into preservation if the carriage preservation register is anything to go by.

 

Fun fact.  At one time the preservation societies owned more coaches than New Zealand Railways did.  This came about because our own pet Tory party idiots circa the 1970's hated trains and were in the Road Transport Association's pocket so they were selling off and shutting down for all they were worth.

 

M6021BD.jpg

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18 hours ago, islandbridgejct said:

she needed to be able to run faster than a horse for just long enough to outrun a horse, in order to escape from any mounted train robbers she might have encountered

 

In his recent novels and short stories about an alternate mythical London, Michael Moorcock has the wonderful historical mash-up of  Edwardian trams on the London heaths and marshes being held up by the infamous dashing Blackheath 'Tramwaymen' .

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Supposedly some of the atmospheric lines in the south of London were robbed by enterprising villains who jemmied the sealing flaps off the pipe apart to rob the train of it's source of motive power. ( I can't for the life of me remember the source off this and it's just possible I'm confusing actual history with something like the adventures of Charles Pearce in "Buster").

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6 hours ago, Northroader said:

In the Sallins train picture, I see it’s passing through quite an important junction.

It has just left Kingsbridge and is about to pass Islandbridge Jct. Now where have I heard that name before?

 

In the background is the Kingsbridge (later Heuston) goods yard, now a car park. I like the name 'Heuston': it must be the only major station named after a ticket clerk.

4 hours ago, AdamsRadial said:

Supposedly some of the atmospheric lines in the south of London were robbed by enterprising villains who jemmied the sealing flaps off the pipe apart to rob the train of it's source of motive power.

 

That will have been a band of scientific fundamentalists who had read that nature abhors a vacuum.

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What a load of b*******! Stick with Father Ted!!!

 

now, not a lot of people know this, facts garnered from my DSER book. The first railway in Ireland was the Dublin and Kingstown (Dun Laoghaire, say Dun Leary) line, opened 1834, so hot on the heels of the Liverpool and Manchester. There’s a lot of nice engravings of the line, very similar to the L&M, and this was extended closer to the harbour in 1837. Further extension another couple of miles to Dalkey, using a tramway which had brought building materials to the harbour, was thought to be a good idea. The patent for atmospheric railways was taken out in 1839, with a trial at Wormwood Scrubs in West London, attended by the D&K directors, and the tramway was converted to an atmospheric railway in 1843. The trains ran uphill to the Dalkey pumping engine, and returned by gravity. 

The GWR was then trying to get the D&K interested in an extension southwards to Wexford, and starting a service London to Dublin using the South Wales Railway, and a party of directors, accompanied by I.K.Brunel visited the line in 1844, during the negotiations, giving IKB the idea for the well known South Devon atmospheric. Sometime later the Dalkey line went to steam haulage.

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