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Oxford Rail announces - OO gauge GWR Dean Goods


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Hold on melmerby and others !

 Just minutes after my last post I tried again just to check I wasn't going mad, ......yes I am

 I noticed right at the bottom of the page a get round this in the smallest print at the bottom of the page

  so thanks got their in the end

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18 hours ago, melmerby said:

Where exactly would you see a motor in a computer?

 

 

Keith,

 

DVD drive tray motors among others. I re-motored my Son's aging shorted out Hornby Ringfield drive with one and after some attenuation, his Class 91 (AFAIR) ran like a bat out of hell, these conversions are well documented.

 

Back to the options for Dean Goods motor replacement, AliBaba have a min order quantity (2000!) and what seems to be an old model but similar motors from same Manufacturer are available on Banggood.com in consumer quantities.

https://www.banggood.com/Chaoli-CL-1020-10x20mm-Coreless-Motor-for-90mm-150mm-DIY-Micro-FPV-RC-Quadcopter-Frame-p-1084263.html?rmmds=search&ID=49006&cur_warehouse=CN

 

CL 1020 is the current model see:

http://www.chaolimotor.com/en/showproduct.asp?classid=31&id=707

 

I imagine the 1020 refers to the mm dimensions diameter / length

 

how do these measurements compare to those of your Oxford motor?

 

 

Colin

 

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5 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

Keith,

DVD drive tray motors among others. I re-motored my Son's aging shorted out Hornby Ringfield drive with one and after some attenuation, his Class 91 (AFAIR) ran like a bat out of hell, these conversions are well documented.

AS we are talking coreless motors I don't think that counts!

 

On 14/07/2019 at 17:52, Steamport Southport said:

They're more likely motors from computers,

 

Jason

You are unlikely to find a coreless motor in a PC.

The CD tray motor is normally a 5 pole iron cored motor, HDD, Fans, CD turntable etc are all Brushless direct drive devices.

 

BTW the Chaoli motor is what I linked to a few posts back:)

CL-1021-D 12v

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3 hours ago, melmerby said:

BTW the Chaoli motor is what I linked to a few posts back:)

CL-1021-D 12v

 

Hi Keith,

 

I was just pointing out that on the manufacturers site, the current model of roughly that size is a different code, the CL 1020 available from Banggood as singles.

 

I like their site and get various stuff from there as they ship to Australia, I imagine they would to the UK also. Alibaba was selling minimum of 2000 units which seemed a bit OTT for a modeller's needs.

 

Colin

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11 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

 

Hi Keith,

 

I was just pointing out that on the manufacturers site, the current model of roughly that size is a different code, the CL 1020 available from Banggood as singles.

 

I like their site and get various stuff from there as they ship to Australia, I imagine they would to the UK also. Alibaba was selling minimum of 2000 units which seemed a bit OTT for a modeller's needs.

 

Colin

 

Isn't Alibaba aimed at business, whereas Aliexpress is aimed at the retail customer?

 

I believe that items offered on Alibaba are custom-made products; Aliexpress items are often manufacturing over-runs, etc.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

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59 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Isn't Alibaba aimed at business, whereas Aliexpress is aimed at the retail customer?

 

I believe that items offered on Alibaba are custom-made products; Aliexpress items are often manufacturing over-runs, etc.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Interesting...so I looked it up!

https://service.alibaba.com/buyer/faq_detail/12320786.htm

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The Caoli motors are not offered on Aliexpress but Oxford, surely, would be buying as a trade customer from whoever they get their motors from, so i was taking a punt that the manufacturer might be the one I linked to as they are as close as I can find description wise.

 

Personally I would not want to replace like with like and would be looking for something akin to a Mashima motor

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1 minute ago, melmerby said:

Personally I would not want to replace like with like and would be looking for something akin to a Mashima motor

 

On our recent trip I went to a large Railway Model shop near me in Central Osaka, Japan and even they could not help on the topic of either Mashima (they had one solitary remaining item on their shelves) or supplying any suitable replacements.

 

Then as I said previously, Chaoli motors are readily available on Banggood.com where very many diverse electrical items are easily sourced. The Chaoli Spec sheet was in the link in my earlier post,

http://www.chaolimotor.com/en/showproduct.asp?classid=31&id=707

 

perhaps someone with good knowledge of these matters can comment on what they all mean in terms of performance? 

 

For example they're suggested for use in 4 / 6 axis aircraft which I guess are Drones - you'd think for this use they'd have to be robust as the device is expensive and failure catastrophic.

It remains a possibility to my mind that the motors themselves are fine but Oxford got a dud batch.

 

Colin

 

 

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1 hour ago, BWsTrains said:

For example they're suggested for use in 4 / 6 axis aircraft which I guess are Drones - you'd think for this use they'd have to be robust as the device is expensive and failure catastrophic.

It remains a possibility to my mind that the motors themselves are fine but Oxford got a dud batch.

 

Colin

 

 

There is a world of difference between a drone where a ready supply of cooling air is available and a model railway loco where the motor is hidden away complete with an insulating jacket.

See this cheap drone, with the motors out in the air flow:

u_10187547.jpg

One write-up on these type of motors suggested that due to the lack of an iron core to sink any generated heat, cooling is essential if they are to be used with a reasonable load.

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FYI, just received ROD 2308 from England. The external mailing box was bashed around a lot but thanks to plenty of internal bubble wrap, the product box was unscathed as was the contents. Lovely model with no manufacturing faults I could find and ran superbly straight out of the box. No rock n roll, perfect control at all speeds down to a crawl. A super model.

 

I could not be more pleased with my first Oxford Dean.

 

My only question being: I was under the impression that the khaki livery is possibly not authentic for ROD service in France. Was that issue resolved? Or does the khaki represent best guess?

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The only pictures I can find in my various books show 2330 as a ROD engine in WW1 and it definitely looks a lighter colour than standard green.

No livery is mentioned for the WW1 examples but black is mentioned for WW2 WD engines.

2308 has an interesting history: Sent to France in 1917 as ROD 2308, transferred to Salonika series as ROD 73, Sold to the Ottoman Railway in 1919 and renumbered to 110, renumbered again to Turkish National Railway TCDD 33041, it lasted to about 1955. (there is a picture of the remains in Turkey in the 1950s on P91 of RCTS volume 14)

 

I wonder whether Oxford will do the WW2 pannier tank version?

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On 08/07/2019 at 08:30, melmerby said:

I have now fitted the replacement motor and it is running fine again.

 

Having a non functioning motor in my hand and curious to find what was the fault, I dismembered the motor to find that it is indeed a 3 pole coreless motor!

 

Keith,

 

I've bitten the bullet, pulled out the Dean Goods' ESU Loksound Chip and installed a DCC Concepts Zen Nano (Blue) with my own Stay Alive (2200uF). My logic is it's not worth risking a GBP100 DCC sound chip when the motor could snuff it out in a blink.

 

Interesting that when I checked back to the ESU Documentation, many of the relevant CVs for BEMF control in Cored motors were set. Maybe the very first release was a Cored motor?

My Zen Nano naturally had BEMF setting from its former use which I'd forgotten to adjust and the DG ran poorly, when I turned off CV 10 all worked much more smoothly.

 

Colin

 

PS Reading back a page or 2 I see I'd missed Cofga's post of July 10 regarding the DG ESU settings. He is much better qualified than I am in this area so anyone following should check back there! 

 

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And here is the link back the original post showing Dean Goods Mark I with a conventional Can motor "and a very smooth one at that"

 

 

 

Now this confirms that OR have kicked one enormous own goal with their later motor changes, Perhaps haven't understood the impact of the change or updated their crucial manual with appropriate CV values. It would also explain the needed flywheel change?

I'm no expert but from what I've read, running a Coreless motor with CV values suited to a core type is decidedly unhealthy for the motor (and may cause burn out).

 

Colin

 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, BWsTrains said:

I'm no expert but from what I've read, running a Coreless motor with CV values suited to a core type is decidedly unhealthy for the motor (and may cause burn out).

 

Colin

 

What values might they be? Where did you read that?

As long as  the decoder is set to high freqency (usually the default) it should be fine, both my DGs &  a 48XX have decoders with standard settings.

Zimo have a Coreless setting, most others don't.

My DG with replacement motor runs well with a Lenz decoder on default settings.

 

(A coreless motor should be quieter & more efficient than a traditional iron cored motor)

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6 hours ago, melmerby said:

What values might they be? Where did you read that?

As long as  the decoder is set to high freqency (usually the default) it should be fine, both my DGs &  a 48XX have decoders with standard settings.

Zimo have a Coreless setting, most others don't.

My DG with replacement motor runs well with a Lenz decoder on default settings.

 

(A coreless motor should be quieter & more efficient than a traditional iron cored motor)

I drew on three sources

 

ESU documentation provided with the Dean Goods gives non zero values for CVs 53 =140 (BEMF voltage) and 54, 55 etc for Load Control. These are stated in the table to relate to BEMF so by inference the Dean goods Documentation was being written for the original Cored motor with BEMF. Otherwise why would the CV values be so set? 

 

one printed opinion (https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1835230.htm) with FWIW no contrary view posted.

 

The final (verbal) from the Tech at DCC Concepts last night who advised me simply to turn off BEMF with the Coreless motor as they don't generate a BEMF and having a value set might well cause operation "issues". 

 

Then going back to that old Chestnut the DJM 14xx, as I recall there were all manner of problems (seems you were a lucky one) regarding running under DCC. DJ himself got quite hot about the topic when challenged that the model was released without adequate DCC testing or providing suitable CV info. All history now.

 

Colin

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Lots of info to take in regarding the CV's and DCC Setting for the sound fitted version.

 

I'm new to DCC and have two such models, one I've featured on here, which has a noticeable motor hum. 

 

In basic terms for a new-be to DCC, what CV would I need to change and to what level? 

 

I'm also tempted to remove the middle capacitor in the tender, as recommended by YouChoos, as that I've been told makes a difference? 

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27 minutes ago, SDJR7F88 said:

Lots of info to take in regarding the CV's and DCC Setting for the sound fitted version.

I'm new to DCC and have two such models, one I've featured on here, which has a noticeable motor hum. 

 

In basic terms for a new-be to DCC, what CV would I need to change and to what level? 

 

I'm also tempted to remove the middle capacitor in the tender, as recommended by YouChoos, as that I've been told makes a difference? 

Callum,

 

If they're under warranty I'd do nothing to the chips, that will invalidate your cover. OR have been very good WRT fixing problem locos should they arise.

 

Based on the likely case that yours have coreless motors, for the ESULoksound models you could try turning off the BEMF Voltage setting CV 53 (set to =0) and try that for size. Personally I don't think there's much hope, some of these motors seem to have more hum than others, Having the BEMF Voltage setting active may cause uneven or jerky running as opposed to hum. Others with more experience can probably elaborate on whether this is so from the DG.

 

My DG ESULoksound is in transition, on its way to a new home in a Collett Goods.

 

Colin

 

 

 

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These CVs being quoted are not standard NMRA CVs but manufacturer specific.

Lenz and Zimo use those CVs for something quite different.

 

General opinion on RMWeb seems to be if the decoder is using high frequency BEMF, it is fine for coreless motors.

There are a some suggestions to turn off BEMF completely but they are far from universal.

(I've trawled through literally dozens and dozens of pages.)

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1 hour ago, melmerby said:

These CVs being quoted are not standard NMRA CVs but manufacturer specific.

Lenz and Zimo use those CVs for something quite different.

 

General opinion on RMWeb seems to be if the decoder is using high frequency BEMF, it is fine for coreless motors.

 

Agreed, the CVs for BEMF must be checked for the Chip you have.

 

For those with OR DG as sold with Sound (i.e. the specific question from SDJR7F88 that I'd answered) the ESU Chip on the DG uses those CVs I'd quoted.

I can't check what happens if CV 53 -> 0 now, it's too late as mine now has a DCC Concepts Zen Nano with BEMF firmly off, it runs remarkably quiet and smoothly.

 

Colin

 

 

 

 

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So the problem was that Oxford have changed the motor for a completely different type and not taken into account the decoder that was originally fitted.:(

Doesn't sound like joined up thinking!

 

I'll have to have a play with one of my DGs to see if changing CVs makes much difference using Lenz decoders.

There are some values to vary with different motor types but not specifically coreless motors.

 

 

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Hi all, had a little play around this morning. 

I recently purchased the new ROD version, with the intention of adding sound to it (as there appears so far to be no factory fitted version due). So I bit the bullet and bought a Sound Fitted Great Western Snow Plough version too, with the plan to swap the sound over to the ROD version (this worked out cheaper than buying the decoder and speaker on their own, plus I have a spare Dean too for another project).

Upon testing both test GWR model before surgery, it appeared to run quietly, but had a bit of a judder when stopping.

Once swapped into the ROD (which took less than 5 minutes), I gave that a quote test run. Again quiet motor, smooth running, bar a little judder on stopping. So quite pleased. 

I did however test out CV53 set the 0, and found it does not work on the factory fitted models, as it seems to change the chuff rate. 

Hope it's of help!

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3 hours ago, melmerby said:

Oxford have changed the motor for a completely different type and not taken into account the decoder that was originally fitted.:(

Doesn't sound like joined up thinking!

Sounds like a knee-jerk reaction to being unable to source the original motor and having to cast around for a replacement quickly to meet delivery schedules.  DCC is beyond my skillsets, Luddite that I am, but apparently the new motor works fine unless you change the chip, which is of course hardly Ox's fault.  One of the reasons that I stick with DC, where I still don't really understand what's going on but can usually cobble up something that works...

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