East Coast Mainline Blockade for Werrington Junction diveunder

[corneliuslundie]

Orange brown gravel seems to be the latest fashion. Several drives done recently with it near here.

But isn't it about time the contractors packed up and went home?

Jonathan

PS I know that would put you out of a job.

[Crun]

8 minutes ago, Donington Road said:

Adding some nice new gravel around the base of Cock Lane footbridge.

 

It looks much better. When will they get around to putting decent railings around the ground floor levels to replace the temporary metal and wooden fencing?

[Donington Road]

2 hours ago, Crun said:

It looks much better. When will they get around to putting decent railings around the ground floor levels to replace the temporary metal and wooden fencing?

 

I've just asked those doing the gravel, they didn't know.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Orange brown gravel seems to be the latest fashion. Several drives done recently with it near here.

 

Haven't seen it on any domestic drives aeound here.

The most recent ones have been blocks or blocks & tarmac.

 

One had a weird concrete drive laid (most non eco-friendly option)

They removed a perfectly serviceable block drive and dug it out quite a bit more

Then had several layers of the "mix on site" concrete until it was about 9" thick, then a guy with a cutting disc cut some shallow grooves in it and finally it had some sort of waterproof top layer laid which was a darkish earthy colour. In the process of doing the drive they had a distinctive slope built in so that it drainjs straight into the road, rather their own drains as it did before.

[Donington Road]

I noticed a new sign at the approach to either side of the bridge at Cock Lane.

I understand the top part, just.👍  But can anyone put in layman's terms what the bottom half means?

Initially there was a public footpath from Werrington to Marholm, in 1848 this was bisected by the new Stamford to Peterborough railway where it became a sleepered crossing with wicket gates either side, subsequently bisected again in 1850 with the ECML.  It remained that way until the ECML was electrified in the late 1980's where a footbridge was constructed and the footcrosing removed.  That bridge was then replaced by the present bridge in October 2019.

 

[Donington Road]

5 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Haven't seen it on any domestic drives aeound here.

The most recent ones have been blocks or blocks & tarmac.

 

One had a weird concrete drive laid (most non eco-friendly option)

They removed a perfectly serviceable block drive and dug it out quite a bit more

Then had several layers of the "mix on site" concrete until it was about 9" thick, then a guy with a cutting disc cut some shallow grooves in it and finally it had some sort of waterproof top layer laid which was a darkish earthy colour. In the process of doing the drive they had a distinctive slope built in so that it drainjs straight into the road, rather their own drains as it did before.

 

The 'gravel' is a bit large, not your usual domestic type, it is about the size of the grey ballast.

They were barrowing it in as well which judging by the amount they needed it was going to take a long time.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Donington Road said:

I noticed a new sign at the approach to either side of the bridge at Cock Lane.

I understand the top part, just.👍  But can anyone put in layman's terms what the bottom half means?

Initially there was a public footpath from Werrington to Marholm, in 1848 this was bisected by the new Stamford to Peterborough railway where it became a sleepered crossing with wicket gates either side, subsequently bisected again in 1850 with the ECML.  It remained that way until the ECML was electrified in the late 1980's where a footbridge was constructed and the footcrosing removed.  That bridge was then replaced by the present bridge in October 2019.

 

Is it a permissive right of way?

e.g. a footpath/bridleway/cycle way where you are permitted by the land owner to use it but it is not a public right of way.

 

EDIT

Had a look at an OS map, no public right of way shown there.

Edited April 27, 2022 by melmerby

[jamie92208]

13 hours ago, Donington Road said:

I noticed a new sign at the approach to either side of the bridge at Cock Lane.

I understand the top part, just.👍  But can anyone put in layman's terms what the bottom half means?

Initially there was a public footpath from Werrington to Marholm, in 1848 this was bisected by the new Stamford to Peterborough railway where it became a sleepered crossing with wicket gates either side, subsequently bisected again in 1850 with the ECML.  It remained that way until the ECML was electrified in the late 1980's where a footbridge was constructed and the footcrosing removed.  That bridge was then replaced by the present bridge in October 2019.

 

 

12 hours ago, melmerby said:

Is it a permissive right of way?

e.g. a footpath/bridleway/cycle way where you are permitted by the land owner to use it but it is not a public right of way.

 

EDIT

Had a look at an OS map, no public right of way shown there.

What it all means is that NR can close it if they wish without going through all the statutory processes for closing a footpath.  Eg if they need to because of engineering works on the line.

 

Jamie

Edited April 28, 2022 by jamie92208

[Donington Road]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

EDIT

Had a look at an OS map, no public right of way shown there.

 

There is on my OS map, showing Cock Lane to Belham Wood.

Mind you it is 1876, perhaps I need to invest in the latest edition.😀

 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Donington Road said:

 

There is on my OS map, showing Cock Lane to Belham Wood.

Mind you it is 1876, perhaps I need to invest in the latest edition.😀

 

There is a difference between a public footpath and a public right of way.

It might in common use but if it is not a right of way can be blocked without notice.

Public rights of way must be kept clear and need legislation to close them or divert them.

 

On the modern Explorer maps a green trail of dashes is a right of way, a red one is a permissive route, short dashes are footpaths, long dashes are bridleways.

A trail of green crosses are byways open for all traffic, since 2006 some byways have been downgraded to stop motorised traffic and are marked with a modified form of crosses

Off road/traffic free cycle routes are red dots.

 

Peterborough is on Explorer 227 which I haven't got!

Edited April 27, 2022 by melmerby

[Donington Road]

55 minutes ago, melmerby said:

There is a difference between a public footpath and a public right of way.

It might in common use but if it is not a right of way can be blocked without notice.

Public rights of way must be kept clear and need legislation to close them or divert them.

 

On the modern Explorer maps a green trail of dashes is a right of way, a red one is a permissive route, short dashes are footpaths, long dashes are bridleways.

A trail of green crosses are byways open for all traffic, since 2006 some byways have been downgraded to stop motorised traffic and are marked with a modified form of crosses

Off road/traffic free cycle routes are red dots.

 

Peterborough is on Explorer 227 which I haven't got!

 

Peterborough north of the River Nene is also on Explorer 235.

Cock Lane is shown on there as Other road, drive or track, fenced or unfenced.

In reallity it is a combined cycleway and pedestrian footpath owned and administered by Peterborough City Council, the land having been purchased from the Fitzwilliam Estate by the now defunct Peterborough Development Corporation who oversaw the expansion of Peterborough during the 1970's.  The Fitzwilliam Estate owns much of the existing land around Peterborough.  When I purchsed my house in 1972 there was a seperate cost from the building payable to the Fitzwilliam Estate of £867 for the plot of land.

 

 

 

This one is from Openstreetmap https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/52.6101/-0.2821

 

 

 

[ruggedpeak]

If I may add to the discussion and maps, an extract from Peterborough City Council's GIS system which includes the Definitite Map of Rights of Way is below, confirming that it is not PRoW. PRoW's are in purple on the map. They don't seem to show adopted highways on their system but probably not a highway!

 

General link https://peterborough.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=1e47538c3218418e86741bf13a33a04b&scale=15000&center=519417,298258,27700

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by ruggedpeak

[melmerby]

There's a surprising lack of rights of way on that OS map

Theres some around Belham Wood/Pocock's Wood area and some around the recreation ground and allotments, also some up by Fox Covert.

 

The area of North Worcestershire I'm in (semi rural),is covered in them!

 

However Redditch, also formerly a Development Corporation, is similarly lacking in rights of way showing on the OS map, although it was designed as a mostly traffic separated town.

Many roads have no pavements but footpaths/cycleways, grade separated, criss cross the place in profusion.

 

EDIT

In the defintive map of Peterborough the paths through the allotment look like they have been moved. The purple lines are in a different place to the green ones

Edited April 27, 2022 by melmerby

[corneliuslundie]

You can't always believe the OS either. Near here there is a path across a field which is marked as a public right of way on the OS map. But there is no path. There is a post at each end waiting for its sign, but no stile or gate. I gather that it was intended to make it a right of way but it never happened. Not that it really matters as there are roads on two adjacent sides of the field so you san walk around on the roads in only about two minutes more.

The other thing which maps don't always make clear is the terrain. Around here we have lots of streams in small but steep sided valleys, so the path goes down at about 1 in 2, across the stream and up the other side also at about 1 in 2. In one place someone has kindly provided a rope across so you can pull yourself up what is more like a cliff than a path. Not exactly disabled friendly. And not a problem you have in the fens.

Jonathan

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

You can't always believe the OS either. Near here there is a path across a field which is marked as a public right of way on the OS map. But there is no path. There is a post at each end waiting for its sign, but no stile or gate. I gather that it was intended to make it a right of way but it never happened.

Rights of way don't have to be nice paths with gates or stiles, they can just be such things as a field margin, some even go right through the cluster of buildings on farms.

 

[Richard E]

Definitely no public right of way shown on maps so that would make it a permissive path. As such the landowners of any property it crosses may close it at any time provided they give adequate notice. Additionally they may have to close it once a year to maintain the permissive element and prevent it becoming a statutory right of way, I know of one path in the city centre where this happens.

[Donington Road]

13 hours ago, Richard E said:

Definitely no public right of way shown on maps so that would make it a permissive path. As such the landowners of any property it crosses may close it at any time provided they give adequate notice. Additionally they may have to close it once a year to maintain the permissive element and prevent it becoming a statutory right of way, I know of one path in the city centre where this happens.

 

Hereward Arcade 👍

 

Cock Lane started life well before the railway,  it served the three white cottages which are now at the entrance into Carron Drive.  Beyond the cottages it was a footpath to Belham Wood.  Before the Carron Drive and Helmsdale Gardens estates were built in 1970 Cock Lane became an unsurfaced track beyond the cottages to serve the Dukesmead mobile home estate, the entrance to which was just south of the underpass at Carron Drive of the now A15 Werrington Parkway.   Carron Drive and Helmsdale Gardens were built and the original stub of Cock Lane was renamed Carron Drive, the existing track to Dukesmead and subsequent footpath beyond it retained the name of Cock Lane.  In the 1980's when the Werrington Parkway was built an underpass was constructed slightly north of the Dukesmead track for cyclists and pedestrians, the vehicle access was maintained for Dukesmead by building a ramp up to and over the non-opened Parkway until about a year later when they finally provided access off the roundabout to what became Benedict Square.  The ramp and track were then removed, the underpass being made into a combined cycleway and footpath following the route of the old footpath to Belham Wood still retaining the name of Cock Lane.

 

Cock Lane has had so many changes to its purpose in life that maybe no one really knows what status it comes under.  If the Midland Railway didn't assume it to be a public right away, then surely they would not have provided for or allowed the public to cross their railway, consequently the Great Northern Railway slightly later.  Then we have the odd scenario where the GNR built footbridges at Hurn Road and Woodcroft over their own tracks and dumping pedestrians into 'no man's land' between the two railways but that's another story.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Donington Road
speeling

[Donington Road]

More from our roving reporter Trackside ECML.

The strip of land between the green fence and Brook Drain has been seeded with wild flowers and small shrubs planted.  There was me yesterday thinking they were clumps of weeds growing through.🙄

 

 

Another new sign.  The mileage in miles and yards from Manton Junction, whatever happened to chains.  I do hope they have measured it accurately and it does'nt need repositioning at the end of the fence.

 

That damn buddleia grows anywhere!

 

 

 

Pictures of the day, nice one GB Railfreight.

 

 

[melmerby]

10 minutes ago, Donington Road said:

Pictures of the day, nice one GB Railfreight.

 

 

Like it.

 

Been like that since 6th April:

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2022/04/gb-railfreight-unveils-new-livery-for-class-66-locomotive-in-support-of-ukraine.html

[John Tomlinson]

On 06/03/2022 at 16:21, Donington Road said:

At Hurn Road more hedging whips have been planted which has created a corridor between them and the green fence.  If that stays open to public access it is going to be a nice place to view the dive under to the left.

 

 

I had a walk along here late yesterday afternoon, going along the side of the fence not quite to the end where the contractors yard starts. I really wanted to suss out the location for action pictures, sadly the three southbound freights that came all used the old line, and the one northbound that did (4E56) came after I'd returned to the footbridge near Lincoln Road to see 66708 "Glory to Ukraine" on 4L53 just after 19.00. I haven't posted this shot  here as the thread is about the construction, it is on my Flickr site referenced below if anyone is interested.

 

I've posted below the two views either way going down this field, obviously I needed stepladders to see over the Palisade fence.

 

 

 

Above, looking south towards the dive-under and the ECML, below looking north towards Lincoln Road bridge.

 

 

The thing I was wondering is how many freights actually use this new and not inexpensive facility, and I wonder if anyone knows please?

 

When I went to Cock Lane a few weeks back, at a different time of day, I had the same experience, both freights I saw used the old route. Incidentally, I fully agree with you about Cock Lane footbridge, not only an expensive monstrosity, but also quite an intimidating place to go on your own with such high walls. Ripe for mugging and misbehaviour I'd have thought.

 

John.

Edited April 30, 2022 by John Tomlinson

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

The thing I was wondering is how many freights actually use this new and not inexpensive facility, and I wonder if anyone knows please?

 

When I went to Cock Lane a few weeks back, at a different time of day, I had the same experience, both freights I saw used the old route. Incidentally, I fully agree with you about Cock Lane footbridge, not only an expensive monstrosity, but also quite an intimidating place to go on your own with such high walls. Ripe for mugging and misbehaviour I'd have thought.

 

John.

Probably abput a dozen or so

 

If you look on Real Time Trains for Glinton Junction for freight services from/to Felixstowe/North East & Northern (but not North Western England), you can see how many are scheduled as they will also have Marholm Jn. as a timing point.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:GLNTNJN/2022-04-29/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=freight&order=wtt

 

e.g. this one: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:H22501/2022-04-29/detailed#allox_id=0

 

Even some with Werrington Jn. listed instead go that way as the actual time at Werrington Jn. will show as no report or estimate:

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:H22512/2022-04-29/detailed#allox_id=0

 

 

[John Tomlinson]

9 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Probably abput a dozen or so

 

If you look on Real Time Trains for Glinton Junction for freight services from/to Felixstowe/North East & Northern (but not North Western England), you can see how many are scheduled as they will also have Marholm Jn. as a timing point.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:GLNTNJN/2022-04-29/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=freight&order=wtt

 

e.g. this one: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:H22501/2022-04-29/detailed#allox_id=0

 

Even some with Werrington Jn. listed instead go that way as the actual time at Werrington Jn. will show as no report or estimate:

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:H22512/2022-04-29/detailed#allox_id=0

 

 

 

Very helpful indeed, thank you.

 

When I was talking to a couple of local enthusiasts yesterday, they said that they expected more to use the dive-under after the forthcoming timetable change. Apparently on the present timetable there is a problem with changing some of the paths as they conflict with what is happening on the Stamford lines, with which they join just south of the underpass.

 

So we'll see in a few weeks.

 

John.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

Very helpful indeed, thank you.

 

When I was talking to a couple of local enthusiasts yesterday, they said that they expected more to use the dive-under after the forthcoming timetable change. Apparently on the present timetable there is a problem with changing some of the paths as they conflict with what is happening on the Stamford lines, with which they join just south of the underpass.

 

So we'll see in a few weeks.

 

John.

I get the impression, that some of those that go via the underpass whilst the WTT shows via Werrington Jn. do so if the route is clear (maybe outside the normal slot if running late or early?)

[John Tomlinson]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

I get the impression, that some of those that go via the underpass whilst the WTT shows via Werrington Jn. do so if the route is clear (maybe outside the normal slot if running late or early?)

 

I think this is so. I checked a few of the trains yesterday, Friday, and I think this is just what happened. With 4E20 which ran an hour early having omitted its Peterborough stop, it was booked on the old lines and passed through the underpass around 16.30 per RTT.

 

John.

[Donington Road]

7 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

I had a walk along here late yesterday afternoon, going along the side of the fence not quite to the end where the contractors yard starts. I really wanted to suss out the location for action pictures, sadly the three southbound freights that came all used the old line, and the one northbound that did (4E56) came after I'd returned to the footbridge near Lincoln Road to see 66708 "Glory to Ukraine" on 4L53 just after 19.00. I haven't posted this shot  here as the thread is about the construction, it is on my Flickr site referenced below if anyone is interested.

 

I've posted below the two views either way going down this field, obviously I needed stepladders to see over the Palisade fence.

 

 

 

Above, looking south towards the dive-under and the ECML, below looking north towards Lincoln Road bridge.

 

 

The thing I was wondering is how many freights actually use this new and not inexpensive facility, and I wonder if anyone knows please?

 

When I went to Cock Lane a few weeks back, at a different time of day, I had the same experience, both freights I saw used the old route. Incidentally, I fully agree with you about Cock Lane footbridge, not only an expensive monstrosity, but also quite an intimidating place to go on your own with such high walls. Ripe for mugging and misbehaviour I'd have thought.

 

John.

 

Glad to see you walking down there John, the more people do that then it will flatten the rough ground out to make it easier walking for us oldies.👍

If you thought Cock Lane bridge is a bit uninviting then keep away from Walton footbridge, you need a stab vest and a personal body guard if you go there.😟

It is quite amazing the different type of clientel that pass through those five bridges around Werrington Junction (Walton, Cock Lane, Hurn Road, Lincoln Road and Foxcovert Road).

The busiest time for the dive under use at the moment is mornings and afternoons.  There is some action of the dive under on my lastest video if you want to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5__Kp_tt5HI

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Donington Road