East Coast Mainline Blockade for Werrington Junction diveunder

[jamie92208]

The latest copy of Rail Magazine (Rail 211) has an interesting little piece about this.  It rises concerns that though the northbound traffic will be grade separated it appears that the dive under will only be singe track so that southbound freight bound for March and Felixstowe, still has to cross the ECML on the level to access the line to March.  It raises the question of whether new construction from march to Spalding would be a cheaper option.

 

Jamie

[The Stationmaster]

The latest copy of Rail Magazine (Rail 211) has an interesting little piece about this.  It rises concerns that though the northbound traffic will be grade separated it appears that the dive under will only be singe track so that southbound freight bound for March and Felixstowe, still has to cross the ECML on the level to access the line to March.  It raises the question of whether new construction from march to Spalding would be a cheaper option.

 

Jamie

 

Two crossovers and job sorted  Just because it's going to be a single line doesn't mean it will inevitably be uni-directional - i wonder if BRail realise that (or NR come to that)?

[Mike Storey]

The latest copy of Rail Magazine (Rail 211) has an interesting little piece about this.  It rises concerns that though the northbound traffic will be grade separated it appears that the dive under will only be singe track so that southbound freight bound for March and Felixstowe, still has to cross the ECML on the level to access the line to March.  It raises the question of whether new construction from march to Spalding would be a cheaper option.

 

Jamie

 

I am not sure what they are looking at then, because the latest public consultation document (c.7 Sept 16) clearly shows a double track dive under, both up and down Spaldings linking directly with the Stamfords. I guess there is still a possibility that the project will be told to save money, which could end up with a perverse cut to functionality like that, which will halve the CBR. Nothing would surprise me at the moment, now that the Treasury makes all the decisions.

 

NR intend to leave the existing flat junction in place, which I presume will be for the use of ECML freights south of P'boro.

[pete_mcfarlane]

I've been reading today about this and Railfutre thinks this plan has limitations and should be paused to allowing costings for all plans for the proposed Strategic Rail Freight Network around the city to be costed against reopening the March to Spding line.

Bear in mind that a lot of these pressure group want to have large numbers of closed lines reopened, regardless of whether there's a business case for doing so. 

[great central]

What would give the most benefit in my opinion would be a split level junction just south of Werrington. That way traffic from both the Joint and ECML could get to the March line without crossing on the level. No idea if there's enough distance though between Werrington and Peterborough

Edited October 13, 2016 by great central

[Titan]

The latest copy of Rail Magazine (Rail 211) has an interesting little piece about this.  It rises concerns that though the northbound traffic will be grade separated it appears that the dive under will only be singe track so that southbound freight bound for March and Felixstowe, still has to cross the ECML on the level to access the line to March.  It raises the question of whether new construction from march to Spalding would be a cheaper option.

 

Jamie

 

Rail have got it wrong. Goodness knows how because the dive under always has been proposed as double track, and has never been shown as single anywhere ever as far as I know! 

[jamie92208]

Rail have got it wrong. Goodness knows how because the dive under always has been proposed as double track, and has never been shown as single anywhere ever as far as I know!

Having looked at the piece in Rail again it looks like a bit of sloppy journalism on their part. I suspect that they have lifted a press release and rehashed it without cross checking.

 

Jamie

[Mike Storey]

One opportunity I don't see being pushed is the creation, on the Spalding line, of one or more new stations to serve the north of Peterborough (at Werrington north) and the rapidly expanding areas just across the border in Lincolnshire (north of Peakirk), especially the Deepings (about the same size as Stamford), Bourne, Crowland and the surrounding, growing villages. This was raised back in the '80's but dismissed as unattractive due to the low level of service possible, and the catchment was significantly smaller then, but once a more frequent service could be delivered?

 

Greater Peterborough is now a city of around 200,000 residents plus many tens of thousands more who enter and leave the area each day. There are vast numbers of car driving commuters who live in the northern catchment (Pop. South Kesteven c.140,000, not included in the P'boro figure) who all flock towards the city centre to catch a train to London each morning (or to carry on towards the A1), which causes gridlock especially in the evenings as the Queensgate centre (which is gradually doubling in size) empties its shoppers and workers. Buses are not attractive as they get caught up in the same melee, despite a reasonably good service frequency (and they are well patronised). It can frequently take 20 mins just to get out of the station, in bus or car, despite the new road layout. The City Council have no real answer to this, over which they have been fretting since we first lived there. But they and Lincolnshire have been notoriously bad at funding anything except more roads or the odd cycle route and "innovative" solutions (basically more traveller info and road management systems). There is no other rail route into Peterborough which serves an equally large catchment, even south of Fletton (Hampton), where a station was being seriously considered 25 years ago, and for which space was earmarked and held for progression by a developer. The specific proposal had disappeared from the Long Term Transport Plan by PCC by 2011. However, a ray of light now appears in the LTTP of 2016, page 76 (now in consultation) - "To support the addition of further stations along the Stamford and Spalding train lines with the relevant authorities subject to this being supported by (PCC) cabinet and only where they do not take priority over existing proposals for the network". This is the only mention of this aspiration within 162 pages, which is not surprising given the majority of the document concerns local road use, and is not one of  the conclusions drawn from the studies apparently supporting the strategy. I have not checked the latest NR route strategy, but do not recall any serious mention in the last version (an aspiration was listed in the original Railtrack equivalent). So who knows?

[Donington Road]

One opportunity I don't see being pushed is the creation, on the Spalding line, of one or more new stations to serve the north of Peterborough (at Werrington north) and the rapidly expanding areas just across the border in Lincolnshire (north of Peakirk), especially the Deepings (about the same size as Stamford), Bourne, Crowland and the surrounding, growing villages. This was raised back in the '80's but dismissed as unattractive due to the low level of service possible, and the catchment was significantly smaller then, but once a more frequent service could be delivered?

 

 

The nimbys at Werrington North moan about the noise of a single railcar pootling along the Spalding line, so what chance of anyone agreeing to a station?

The rail line which their houses back onto has been there 170 years so why buy a property there then start moaning about the noise.  They all think with the proposed dive-under it will hide the problem but I think they will get a rude awakening when locos start working hard to drag those long freight trains out of that hole in the ground

 

There is indeed a lot of commuters coming into Peterborough Station from the North.  IMO the best site for a station to serve the Deepings to Bourne areas would be at Tallington.  As it is four track there, the slow lines could be utilised without hindering the fast lines. 

As Network Rail need to close the rail crossing at Tallington an opportunity to amalgamate the long proposed Tallington bypass with a new station shouldn't be missed.  Bit more info here about the bypass http://tallington.info/

 

The closure in 1982 of the Spalding to March line was a huge mistake that people agreed with at the time, but to re-open it now would be very costly, more so than the Werrington proposals.  There are two main river crossings to bridge, the Nene and Welland, housing developments at the Spalding end, Whitemoor Prison at the southern and most of the original track bed between has been built on or used for other purposes.

 

Anyway it will be nice to have a bit more excitement going on at Werrington Junction which we haven't had since the demise of the Deltics rattling the roof off on a warm summers night

[Richard E]

Surely a problem at Tallington would be those nice new houses built on the old farm to the west of the line, they'll probably object to a nice new parkway station. The local landowner might be a bit sniffy too. It would take some pressure off Stamford as well but another issue is whether local road links are robust enough to cope with the extra traffic.

 

There is the same problem at Helpston where, again, there is plenty of space although I am not sure whether the road bridge proposals are still extant. Had it been mooted sooner there was even land at Helpston that could have made a good station location ....

[pete_mcfarlane]

What trains would serve a hypothetical Parkway? You could start the Peterborough-London stoppers from there, but stopping the fast trains would add an extra (I think) 7 minutes to their journey times, and possibly more if they have to cross over to the slow lines. There's probably not enough slack in the peak ECML timetable to allow this. 

 

Maybe something for 2030ish, when HS2 takes some of the load off the ECML and there's a bit more room for innovation in the timetable. 

[Glorious NSE]

What trains would serve a hypothetical Parkway? You could start the Peterborough-London stoppers from there, but stopping the fast trains would add an extra (I think) 7 minutes to their journey times, and possibly more if they have to cross over to the slow lines. There's probably not enough slack in the peak ECML timetable to allow this. 

 

Maybe something for 2030ish, when HS2 takes some of the load off the ECML and there's a bit more room for innovation in the timetable. 

 

Don't the EMT Norwich-Liverpool trains run that way?

[TheSignalEngineer]

I like the way that it mentions 'interesting' construction challenges and specialist contractors.  I suspect that the high water table will make it very interesting. Will the contactors need to be Scuba trained as well as having a PTS card.

 

 

More seriously that will probably have to make sure that the whole diveunder doesn't tend to float upwards.

 

Jamie

Perhaps they could recover some of the costs by holding the World Bog Snorkelling Championships there during construction. 

 

Seriously though, I suspect the ground is rather like Ashton Moss. The Highways Agency were surprised that the M60 regularly flooded there when they put it in a trench across an old peat bog.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Don't the EMT Norwich-Liverpool trains run that way?

They do. In fact I was on one earlier. But they're normally only 2 cars (they strengthen a couple to 4 to handle Grantham-Nottingham commuters) so probably not ideal for handling large numbers of people.

[great central]

They do. In fact I was on one earlier. But they're normally only 2 cars (they strengthen a couple to 4 to handle Grantham-Nottingham commuters) so probably not ideal for handling large numbers of people.

Then there's the question over whether they're still running in a few years, we're still waiting the decision over whether the route should continue as it is or be split between franchises

[Mike Storey]

Surely a problem at Tallington would be those nice new houses built on the old farm to the west of the line, they'll probably object to a nice new parkway station. The local landowner might be a bit sniffy too. It would take some pressure off Stamford as well but another issue is whether local road links are robust enough to cope with the extra traffic.

 

There is the same problem at Helpston where, again, there is plenty of space although I am not sure whether the road bridge proposals are still extant. Had it been mooted sooner there was even land at Helpston that could have made a good station location ....

 

I agree. The roads are very poor in both those areas, plus the level crossings cause further congestion, making a parkway solution very expensive, assuming planners would require major upgrades, and probably uneconomic if it was significantly abstractive. The local councils all prefer the addition of stations to the Spalding and/or Stamford lines, where if things have changed little since I was involved in that area, pathing for additional stops is not such a problem (especially since the additional platforms at P'boro have destroyed so many conflicting moves with the ECML already), so they would have been guided down this route since BR days. Local road networks would still be a problem although I would imagine would be more localised and manageable.

 

This is especially true of the Spalding line once the signalling upgrade is complete and the underpass connection to the ECML reduces pathing constraints, although the additional freight paths planned may cancel this out - the current reduction in freight traffic overall does not significantly affect this area due to the primary types carried. But the flexibility of the peaks Spalding shuttle, given long turnrounds there, should not present insuperable difficulties. Journey time is currently, easily achieved in 20 mins but most trains are timed to take 22 to 24 minutes due to pathing issues. The planned layout for the underpass junctions suggests higher approach speeds will be possible, which will further increase the slack.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Then there's the question over whether they're still running in a few years, we're still waiting the decision over whether the route should continue as it is or be split between franchises

I thought they'd decided to keep the Liverpool-Norwich service as it currently is a couple of years back. Or is whoever in the DfT who wants to split the service having another go?

[great central]

As I recall the decision was put off and left to the new holder of the TPE franchise to recommend whether the Nottingham - Liverpool part should be taken into the TPE franchise within the first year. That time is ticking away. Again as I understand it the major part of the consultation at the Norwich end revolved around what service was required, through to Liverpool, Nottingham or merely as far as Peterborough?

There has been I believe quite a substantial campaign to keep it as a full through route but what the outcome will be who knows how those making the final decision think?

[PenrithBeacon]

As I recall the decision was put off and left to the new holder of the TPE franchise to recommend whether the Nottingham - Liverpool part should be taken into the TPE franchise within the first year.

 

...

TPE! I would have thought that it would be appropriate to the XC service. But then so would the Manchester Airport to Edinburgh service.

 

Regards

[russ p]

When central train was broken up about 2005 one of the options for Norwich - Liverpool was transpennine until it was decided to create EMT

[great central]

When central train was broken up about 2005 one of the options for Norwich - Liverpool was transpennine until it was decided to create EMT

 

Central ceased to be in 2007, they took me on as a guard 4 weeks before the franchise ended. The break up had started well before with the removal of the Welsh bit, can't remember who that went to now, was it Wales and West? Oddly enough though EMT inherited a number of the units which had been dedicated to the Welsh side with bi-lingual auto announcers which were still working, apparently with no off switch until they were permanently disabled. Still in the cabs today though.

[Shed]

Thought the crossing at Helpston was to be shut once a bypass and bridge has been built?

Could a station be built at the same time?

[Three Cocks Junction]

Thought the crossing at Helpston was to be shut once a bypass and bridge has been built?

Could a station be built at the same time?

 

A station already was was built along with the Midland Railway Here it is:-

 

http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/mysteryphotos/show.htm?location=helpston&serial=2&img=Y-209-13A

 

 Closed 06/06/1966 along with all the remaining minor stations on the route.

 

I doubt if anyone who lives in Helpston wants it back.

[Richard E]

A station already was was built along with the Midland Railway Here it is:-

 

http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/mysteryphotos/show.htm?location=helpston&serial=2&img=Y-209-13A

 

 Closed 06/06/1966 along with all the remaining minor stations on the route.

 

I doubt if anyone who lives in Helpston wants it back.

Add to that the fact that there isn't enough space on the ECML lines without an awful lot of realignment work and the need for additional land. Some existing buildings would need to be demolished too.

[jamie92208]

Some time since the last posting on this thread.  Yesterday I spent a couple of hours at Peterborough and saw two long container trains having to use the ladder crossover just north of the station to go from the east side of the layout to the March line.  Each time they were held up waiting to cross and usually there would be 2 or 3, obviously coordinated movements on the other lines before the train came across.  Usually within a minute of the train clearing the main line something would come through on the fast lines.   It certainly demonstrated to me the need for the dive-under.  I wonder when anything is going to happen on the ground.   The sequence of movements before and after the crossovers moves also showed me the professionalism involved in constructing the working time table to maximise route capacity.

 

Jamie