PhilMortimer Posted May 21, 2016 Author Share Posted May 21, 2016 (edited) OK, back from the vet, so we continue. Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:44 pm Quick update. Both ashpans now finished. Cab entrance beading being added to cab side sheets. This is a bit of a fiddle to get all the bends in the correct place, but it's going together OK, with a bit of cleaning up. Both side sheets for one cab done, will try and do the other tonight. Then we can start assembly of the cab and permanently fitting the boiler. Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:18 pm Sorry for the recent dearth of updates. Work has taken over most of my life and there hasn't been time to work much on this. However, last night, I assembled the first cab for loco #1. Whilst not difficult (it's soldering 4 sheets of brass into a box, how hard can that be?), it was a fairly involved process to get everything square, lined up and fixed into position ready for soldering. The actual soldering took little time, but it took most of the evening to complete one cab. I hope to do the other tonight (with pictures). Most cabs I have worked on previously have been fold up from a single sheet, so this was much more involved. Placing the cab and boiler unit on the frames, suddenly one can see the size of the loco. 7 mm scale has so much more presence. Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:35 pm Sorry for the lack of updates recently. The day job has been all encompassing, and several other matters have required my attention. Plus, the hay-fever is really bad this year here in MD and it's knocked me on my back. So all in, I lost my modelling mojo for a bit. Anyhow, here are a couple of pictures showing progress. WF_Garratt_040 by Phil Mortimer, on Flickr The first shows the cab under assembly. This had to be assembled from the separate front, rear and side sheets, soldered together. Because of the embossed rivets preventing the sheet from lying down on the glass flat, it was difficult to get the edges to align perfectly. So I made a tool to help, which is seen in the front - basically some I beam soldered to a brass sheet. This supported the side sheets whilst the front was aligned exactly, using a square to get right angle joins. Following checking, the two sheets were tacked together and then seam soldered solid after further checking. Fold up cabs are so much easier. The cab has not yet been soldered to the main frame, but I couldn't resist dropping it and the boiler onto the main frame. Looks impressive. WF_Garratt_041 by Phil Mortimer, on Flickr To get the cab fitted permanently, I need a block of time to get everything set up right I hope to do that tonight. However, Canyon has a vet visit after work, so i don't know if it will work out. The cab has to be fitted accurately as it forms the datum for fitting the boiler. Edited July 1, 2017 by PhilMortimer 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted May 21, 2016 Author Share Posted May 21, 2016 (edited) Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:03 pm Cabs were tacked into place last night and left to sit. On inspection this morning in natural light, there were no major foul ups and the gremlins hadn't appeared overnight to move anything about. So assuming that all is still well, I plan on getting these soldered up solid this weekend. It's supposed to rain so, no outdoor work is likely, hence being able to spend time at the work bench. Mon May 02, 2016 2:08 pm Boiler permanently fitted to loco #1 yesterday. Ran out of time to do fit boiler #2, but hope to do it tonight Tue May 03, 2016 3:27 pm Well, that didn't happen as I had a really bad headache all yesterday. Not a good thing for a period of intense concentration. Maybe tonight or tomorrow. I also have a plan on how to mount the ashpans, which may require dismantling and re-assembly of the current units. I will explore this once the 2nd boiler is fitted. Fri May 06, 2016 3:04 pm Ok, Here's an update with photo's as promised. Been a bit busy recently. But both boilers are now soldered to the frames, along with the cabs, and the lower firebox and part of the ashpan have been added as well. Here we see the frames of one of the loco;s, along with the near completed boiler and the cab unit. These will all be mated together. WF_Garratt_042 by Phil Mortimer, on Flickr The front of the cab. WF_Garratt_043 by Phil Mortimer, on Flickr And the cab rear. WF_Garratt_044 by Phil Mortimer, on Flickr Note that the cab beading and front and rear window surrounds have already been soldered in place. Much easier to do in the flat. Here is the cab soldered to the frame. Boiler behind and cab floor to the left. The cab acts as the datum for adding the boiler and some significant fettling was required to ensure everything settled down on the frame straight and square. the boiler was also used to check alignment as the cab was tack solderd into place, then checked and the seams made good. WF_Garratt_046 by Phil Mortimer, on Flickr Now, with the boiler soldered into place. A slight packing piece was needed to raise the smokebox slightly to get a good fit. The boiler was soldered to the cab front and the cradle soldered to the frames to create a strong unit. The operation is carried out with the locoframes and boiler sitting on two strips of brass, themselves sitting on a sheet of glass. The brass is required due to slight protrusions below the frame preventing the frame sitting flat on the glass. By sitting the frame and the boiler on the brass strips on the glass sheet, it was possible to make sure everything was sat down square before soldering. WF_Garratt_045 by Phil Mortimer, on Flickr A picture showing both completed boiler units, with the lower firebox and ashpan added. The rear loco is temporarily sitting on one of the frames for the engine units to check clearances and pivot points. The pivots need to be made up, so the cab floor and front pivot cover cannot yet be soldered into place. Plus I want to add some strengthening frames to the pivot area of the cradle frames close to the rear pivot. WF_Garratt_047 by Phil Mortimer, on Flickr Close up of the loco WF_Garratt_048 by Phil Mortimer, on Flickr And looking at the underside WF_Garratt_049 by Phil Mortimer, on Flickr The ashpan has been modified by cutting off the lower hoppers. This is to allow adjustment of the clearance between the ashpan bottom and rail level once the loco is on it's wheels. The clearance is very small on the real thing and so I want this to be adjustable. I will need to remake the lower hoppers. I may cut a hole in the underside of the firebox so I can solder details on from inside. Also, this will allow filling of the firebox with lead ballast if needed later on. All in all, I'm quite satisfied with progress. It's been a tricky build with lots of modifications and a near completly scratch built boiler. I may take a bit of a rest from the loco for a bit whilst i ponder the next moves, which will involve assembling the frames. There is quite a bit of modification work to do to the frames and some thought is required for the remedial work (the cylinder etches are not symmetrical for a start!). To build the engine unit frames up correctly, I need 1) some O gauge track (!)to test it on and 2) some form of jig to get the axles and coupling rods aligned. Since I have several other loco's to build (including a 7 mm scale BR standard 8P and a 9F), I may invest in a jig. In the meantime, I will probably go back and carry on with my OO9 K1 which needs finishing. Edited July 1, 2017 by PhilMortimer 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted May 21, 2016 Author Share Posted May 21, 2016 Tue May 10, 2016 11:07 am Tidied up a few things on both loco's. The cab beading on one loco was removed and replaced to give better positioning. Relatively quick and easy job, especially with an RSU and solder paint. A beam has been added between the frames under the cab floor, adjacent to the rear pivot. This provides strengthens the load bearing capacity of the rear frames and prevents distortion (especially when I fill the boiler full of lead!). As designed, the weight was just borne by the N/S running plate, which was insufficient and was prone to distortion. A brass I beam was added between the two longitudinal frames and soldered to the floor, to hold everything straight. A similar problem existed at the front of the loco, but here the smokebox rests on the NS running plate (which has been strengthened with a strip of brass) close to the pivot, and takes the weight, preventing frame distortion.I started to clean up some of the boiler fittings (manifold, top feed, safety valves etc), but decided that cleaning the work bench was more important. Things have been encroaching on the working area and a blitz was needed to get everything back to normal. OK, we are now up to date. Future updates will now proceed more slowly and as the work progresses. PM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKR Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 Thank you for detailing your builds. This has been on my wish list since I saw Giles's wonderful model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted May 23, 2016 Author Share Posted May 23, 2016 OK, so now we're in real time. No photo's today (sorry), since there isn't a lot to show. Currently working on sorting out the cylinder etches, which have their issues. Firstly, they appear to not be symmetrical. Secondly, when dropped into the engine unit chassis, they splay the frames apart at the cylinder end. This is not good. So all 8 etches were stacked together and aligned using the cylinder holes and tacked together to form a block. The slots for the cylinders were then widened up to allow the cylinder end etches to sit down inside the frames without splaying them. A piece of brass has been tacked across the frames to temporarily hold them at the correct spacing. The problem with opening up the slots in the cylinder etches is that there is now no positive location in the frames. That said, what registration was there before hand was useless due to the incorrect positioning and asymmetric nature of the slots, so no real loss. I now have to develop a method of accurately centering the cylinders on the frames in order to attach. I have some ideas based on using bits of tube as jigs, but need to work this out further. All very challenging! PM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgood Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 (edited) I'm sure you've discovered this site already Phil - but the early photo and images from 2008 of the Garratt's lair are worth linking here: http://www.derelictplaces.co.uk/main/misc-sites/7414-vivian-sons-no1-shed-landore-oct-08-a.html#.V0NN0Vx1JlI Edited May 23, 2016 by Osgood Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted May 23, 2016 Author Share Posted May 23, 2016 Thanks for that. Yes, I've seen these before, but they're all good. I actually used to live in Swansea (for 10+ years), so know exactly where the shed is (and have visited it). That part of Swansea has totally changed now, especially with the damming of the Tawe. The GWR main line runs high above the shed and i would go past frequently on HST's on my jaunts home. I'm actually building the Sneyd Colliery and Baddesley Garratts, which have some slight differences to the original Vivian loco (as alluded to on Giles's page). Still, these photo's take me back to my time in Swansea (it rained - alot!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted May 25, 2016 Author Share Posted May 25, 2016 (edited) OK, time for an update. The cylinder front and rears have been added to the frames. A long and rather tedious process. The frames come as a one piece etch that folds up into an inverted U shape and the cylinder front and rears are added to slots in the frames to act as spacers. Simple in concept, but there is a lot of slop in the slots and the cylinder etches have some asymmetry problems that make their positioning some what complex to get correct. Here is how I did it. WF_Garratt_050 by Phil Mortimer, on Flickr N/S frame etch prior to folding up into U shape. Note rivets embossed into inner end of the frame WF_Garratt_051 by Phil Mortimer, on Flickr Frames folded into inverted U shape. A brass spacer was then made to temporarily hold the outer ends of the frames at the correct distance apart. This was made from brass and filed to size, checking by inserting into the folded inner ends of the frames to check for correct sizing. The temporary spacer was then tack soldered to the frames midway between the front and rear faces of the cylinders, using squares to ensure that the frames were perfectly at 90 degrees. WF_Garratt_052 by Phil Mortimer, on Flickr This gave a solid chassis with correct frame spacing ready fro installation of the cylinder front and rear etches. WF_Garratt_053 by Phil Mortimer, on Flickr The cylinder etches are then inserted into the frames and the whole lot inverted on a sheet of glass. The cylinder apertures were reamed out slightly to accept two rods which will be used for alignment of the cylinders. (The rods were actually spare soldering iron tips, but heh, it did the job) WF_Garratt_054 by Phil Mortimer, on Flickr A piece of foam was inserted between the temporary spacer and the front cylinder etch to hold things in position. Then using calipers, the etch was adjusted fractionally so that the distance between the jig rod and the frame was the same on both sides of the frame. Once happy, the etch was tack soldered to the frames on both sides whilst still inverted on the glass to ensure good top surface alignment of the cylinder and frame etches. the same procedure was repeated for the rear etch, then the temporary spacer rapidly heated with a micro-torch so that the solder holding it to the frames melted and it could be knocked out once loose without disturbing the cylinder etches. Sorted! WF_Garratt_055 by Phil Mortimer, on Flickr (OK, it didn't always work first time and on a couple of occasions, knocking out the temporary spacer disturbed the cylinder etches, requiring that everything was blown apart and set up again, but you get the picture). This resulted in a set of frames with the cylinder etches now added to the frames with equidistant spacing between the frames and the cylinder apertures. The result is seen below. WF_Garratt_056 by Phil Mortimer, on Flickr Note that in the above picture, the motion bracket has not yet been attached and is just resting on the frames. This also needs positioning correctly. It should be noted that due to the sloppy fit of the cylinder etches into the frames, there are now some gaps that need to be filled with wire or strip. I will probably reinforce the gap on the interior with some L-angle and then file wire or strip to shape to fill the gap. This will be done later and probably won't be very exciting! Finally, some fun. Now I have the chassis units together, it was fun to put them together with the boiler unit to get an idea as to the size of the completed loco. WF_Garratt_057 by Phil Mortimer, on Flickr Note that the top-feed, safety valves and turret are not yet soldered into position and are just sitting on the loco at the moment. I was cleaning them up as i had some time available, but am awaiting a fresh delivery of Carrs 100 degree solder before I can proceed. (remember, I live in the US and it's not readily available - I have to get it from an importer in California, who as far as i know, is the only importer of Carrs products in the US. And as for getting paint........). Also, for fun, I thought I'd compare the loco with my OO scale Western. As can be seen, the garratt is longer than the Western, which itself is not a small loco! WF_Garratt_058 by Phil Mortimer, on Flickr Finally, comparing the boiler unit of the Vivian style garratt with the boiler unit of my Backwoods Miniatures OO9 K1 garratt that I'm also building. Both BP products, but vastly different in scope and scale! I can be versatile in the scales I model in! The photo looks a bit like a factory locomotive production line! WF_Garratt_059 by Phil Mortimer, on Flickr Thats all for now. probably no posts for a few days, as I have other things to attend to. Edited July 1, 2017 by PhilMortimer 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 Not a great deal to report. Basically working on the chassis units filling the gaps between the sideframe and cylinder etches. Not very exciting. Will post when I have more exciting news! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Good - keep it coming! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted June 2, 2016 Author Share Posted June 2, 2016 Sorry, the day job is getting in the way at the moment...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted June 6, 2016 Author Share Posted June 6, 2016 Working on filling all the gaps between the cylinder and frames. Long and tedious job and not a lot to show for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted June 6, 2016 Author Share Posted June 6, 2016 Good - keep it coming! Giles, do you have a diagram dimensions of the Gresham No 9 injector? I need to make up some injectors in the same manner that you did to replace the cast ones, but am having difficulty getting dimensions to do so. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 (edited) This is the only thing I've got - I scaled up the basic dimensions from this...... Edited June 7, 2016 by Giles 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted June 7, 2016 Author Share Posted June 7, 2016 Many Thanks, Something to start working from. Cheers, PM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DLT Posted June 7, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 7, 2016 No doubt about it, Garretts make lovely models. If you can take the trouble to build them! (I've done the Backwoods K1 in 7mm) I shall be following this with interest Phil. Cheers, Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted June 8, 2016 Author Share Posted June 8, 2016 Thanks Dave, Yes, there is something about garratts. I've done a Backwoods NGG16 in OO9 (with two more to build) and a Backwoods K1, also in OO9 for a client. I have a second OO9 K1 in build for myself, just got tied up with the Vivian garratts at present to finish it (it got delayed due to a bad batch of gears). I've also scratch built an OO9 Kitson Meyer which was a lot of fun to do. I model in OO9 / OO, but like building in O scale as well. (Living in the US, I have the odd piece of HO as well for variety, but this is all largely RTR). I have visions of being able to build a running track in O in the garden at some distant point in the future, but that depends on gaining "permission"! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 Hmm, Quick check of the frames last night. Although they were soldered up upside down on glass and all is square on the topside, when right side up, there is some rocking. And the LHS cylinders appears to be lower than the RHS. The frame is not twisted. Couldn't do a lot on it last night due to other commitments and need to look at this further. It is consistent across all 4 chassis units and makes me suspect that problems in the the etch artwork for the frames or cylinders somewhere. Which based upon the kits history, isn't out of the realms of possibility. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 This sounds familiar. I think I thought it was me messing them about so much that caused it. Seems like it wasn't...... I certainly had to do quite a lot to the cylinders before I was happy with them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted June 13, 2016 Author Share Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) Think I'm getting an idea of where the problems are. Need to tweak the frames slightly on one or tow of the engine chassis. But the problem appears to be the cylinder etches not being symmetrical, along with some issues with the frames. Really, it would be best if I scrapped the frames and cylinders and had new ones etched. But I don't have the time or experience to do the drawings. And I'm not convinced of my ability to cut 4 sets of frames and cylinder etches from sheet to the required accuracy or consistency. I'll have to muddle along with what I have.. Edited June 13, 2016 by PhilMortimer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 If you can draw it, accurately, on paper, you can solder several layers together, glue the paper on top and fret saw round the outside. Then unsolder and assemble. This does work, but I used CAD to prepare the drawings. (It was another "inaccurately etched kit".) Takes a bit of planning ahead... Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted June 14, 2016 Author Share Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) Thanks Simon, I think I've sorted the existing etchings to my satisfaction. They aren't as good as i like, but will do. I've done the "solder several layers together) in the past, but still got variations in the different layers. I just don't have the skill to cut multiple things out and get them all the same. Anyhow, I'm now pretty happy that the frames are 1) square and 2 aligned as they should be. I'm currently filling the various gaps with brass wire and solder flooding, then filing back to get a smooth surface. tedious, but necessary. Only another 26 slots to fill........ After this, hopefully we'll start to make some progress again. Edited June 14, 2016 by PhilMortimer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Phil I thought your approach to squaring it all up was well-nigh faultless. It seemed to me that you ended up with symmetrical and square frames and cylinder formers, with some annoying gaps where there shouldn't be. Perhaps soldering cheapo folded angle (k&s style) against the frames on the inside of the cylinder formers would sufficiently sort out the gaps, at least those that will not be obvious when viewing the finished models, it would be quick, strong & simple. I guess the gaps that show might require a more sophisticated repair! I keep looking at this thread, and recall Giles' earlier one, and despite the shortcomings of the kit, having a cupboard quite stacked with things to build, and having no reasonable need for such a loco... Keep up the good work, watching with interest Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted June 14, 2016 Author Share Posted June 14, 2016 Simon, Basically what i did is what you described. Only, I didn't have any angle to hand, but instead used some brass strip on the insides of the frames and cylinders to act the backing for the gap. Then depending upon the size of the gap it was either flooded with solder or filled with wire and flooded with solder. Both were then filed back level with the surface, basically making it invisible. I will try and get some pictures to illustrate things when I get some time. I had to enlarge some of the slots when tacking the chassis together, which is why there are some larger gaps. This was to allow the cylinders to be adjusted side to side to get the positioning correct. There may be some slight differences between left and right, but not more than a few thou which I can live with. All I can say is that this is an old hand drawn kit and it shows. I knew this before getting into it, with Giles's prior build giving lots of pointers. However, I've found other issues, which have complicated things. Really, I think the kit needs to be redrawn, but that is unlikely to happen as how many models are they likely to sell and will the time and effort be recuperated? So, it won't be a perfect build, but I'll do my best. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted June 15, 2016 Author Share Posted June 15, 2016 A few more gaps filled last night, but didn't get back from work until after 9pm, so didn't get a whole lot done..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now