Cooper craft - Cautionary notes for customers - Its fate and thoughts on an alternative

[Edwardian]

 maybe those in the hobby should help. It might be someone else , but it is our hobby, and we need people to be willing to produce kits for us.

 

Don't just grumble, don't expect others to feed us,maybe offer to help. The answer might be to form a group(properly setup cooperative maybe) and offer a business proposal.

 

 

I confess that my thoughts are tending this way.

 

That said, there would be quite a number of issues to navigate.  First, does the gentleman want to accept outside investment and control, or to sell, and, if he does would he be realistic about the terms?  Owner-managed businesses often have an unrealistic expectation concerning their worth.  This one, sadly, appears to have both a broken machine and a broken reputation.  The Coopercraft kits may be worth saving, but the business of that name cannot really have any goodwill left.  The owner may still entertain hopes of being able to run the thing.  Realistically, however, it is unlikely that anyone investing significant sums to get these ranges going would see a role for the present owner.

 

It is not beyond the wit of the talents here to evolve a business plan that could work.  All sorts of decisions would need to be made.  I would suggest the existing website would have to be scrapped and the offering re-branded with a site that starts off featuring only the products that can be supplied.  Fairly unsentimental decisions would have to be taken as to what is produced first and whether some things can be produced at all, though the eventual aim must be to re-introduce as much of the ranges as possible.  

 

The alternative is a takeover by a larger company, and I tend to agree that Parkside would seem an excellent choice.  Their products I have found to be truly excellent, they have remained committed to new product releases and they seem to be a friendly and efficient bunch.  I suspect most of us would feel that the 'lost' Coopercraft, Kirk and Slaters ranges would be in good hands with Parkside.  That said, there are a number of reasons why Parkside might not want to take on the range.  It may not make commercial sense.  They also would doubtless bear in mind that some of these kits, e.g. wagon kits, area little dated and perhaps not quite to the standard of their own.  Having said that, they have been willing to take on 'legacy' narrow gauge ranges, of differing vintages, media and sophistication and to run them in harness with their own.  Why not do so with the 4mm and 7mm standard gauge ranges?

 

But, I agree that it behoves the modelling community to show willing and to be pro-active, rather than complacently await a white knight, whether from Kirkcaldy, the Heights of Beer, or wherever.

 

For my part, I can bring the necessary legals and marketing to the table, but, I am afraid, not a lot else at present. Anyone with anything to offer, now would be a good time to step forward.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Edwardian

[billbedford]

I too would quite like to get my hands on some Slaters MR kits (wagons and coaches) to supplement those I have, but I do wonder whether Slaters sold them off because the moulds were becoming life-expired. 

 

 

Slaters are still supplying some moulding s to the likes of Powsides, so the problems are more likely to be contractural rather than physical.

[The Stationmaster]

Is that likely with injection-moulding tools? I thought they were good for millions of shots, and I doubt railway kits ever got into the hundreds of thousands.

 

Some of the more recent Coopercraft kits I have seen appear to have a lot more flash than the early examples (which were excellent, really clean, mouldings) some maybe the tools were starting to get worn - for whatever reason.

[County of Yorkshire]

Totally agree with all of the sentiments expressed above. I would buy half a dozen of the Slaters GWR toplight kits alone. 

 

Also for Coopercraft; read the Phoenix/BSL range of coach kits. A rich range of prototype kits vanished into the ether!

 

The overarching trends of the 'Cottage Industry' businesses are worrying, as many products that were and are in demand from modellers disappear from view; with the risk being that they disappear forever. For every excellent and adeptly run small business such as Wizard/Comet, Dart Castings and Parkside, you have those such as Coopercraft and Phoenix. Indeed the discontinued 247 Developments Coach range has hit me hard - there were many GWR coaches and components that I wanted to acquire from that range; now gone!

 

The temptation is therefore to invest quite a bit of money in kits that are currently available from the likes of Comet and Parkside, with a view to my anticipated modelling needs are over the next decade or so, lest - god forbid - that these too cease to become available. If the hobby - that many perceive to be slowly shrinking - cannot support these suppliers, in say, a decade's time, then what will modellers of the future do then? 3D printing is rapidly become a more affordable option and so there is perhaps some hope there, but as this thread demonstrates we've got so much to lose when these ranges fall of the edge of the market place - let's hope something can be done to revive the Coopercraft range at the very least!

 

Cheers, 

 

CoY

Edited June 11, 2016 by County of Yorkshire

[Brian Kirby]

I only ever bought one Coopercraft Mk1 coach kit, a Corridor First (FK), it went together rather nicely. These Mk1 kits appeared around the same time as the Bachmann RTR versions, the latter also included a FK at a later stage, thus duplicating all the Coopercraft types. Today the market is awash with various RTR Mk1s, including many tempting bargains, so I fear a revived Mk1 kit range may struggle with all the competition? Here's my one and only M13293 in mid-60s livery, i've since added yellow cantrail stripes for around 1965 condition, an early blue electric loco will be pulling this.     BK

 

[Spitfire2865]

Slater's wagon are available from Powsides, though only decorated ones.

Only the PO wagons are available from Powsides, not the Midland wagons.

[nigel newling]

Slaters are still supplying some moulding s to the likes of Powsides, so the problems are more likely to be contractural rather than physical.

I do wish ill informed people would stop talking about "Mr Coopercraft" and start talking about Paul Dunn. Better still, talk to the man, he attends enough shows for most people to have access to him.

 

He is doing his best to return historic ranges to the market but many of the toolsets are worn out or incomplete. He produces what he can so, for example, most of the Blacksmith etches are available but not complete kits. He advises people to place orders directly with him for what he does have available as he admits his track record at coping with internet orders is not good.

 

Slaters did not supply him with the full set of tools required to enable him to continue production of their 4mm range of kits. The very fact that they are still producing kits for Powsides (having "sold" the production rights of the complete range to him) provides proof of this.

[Craigw]

I do wish ill informed people would stop talking about "Mr Coopercraft" and start talking about Paul Dunn. Better still, talk to the man, he attends enough shows for most people to have access to him.

 

He is doing his best to return historic ranges to the market but many of the toolsets are worn out or incomplete. He produces what he can so, for example, most of the Blacksmith etches are available but not complete kits. He advises people to place orders directly with him for what he does have available as he admits his track record at coping with internet orders is not good.

 

Slaters did not supply him with the full set of tools required to enable him to continue production of their 4mm range of kits. The very fact that they are still producing kits for Powsides (having "sold" the production rights of the complete range to him) provides proof of this.

 

Nigel,

 

I live in Australia so i do not have the luxury of being able to walk up to him at one of the many shows he attends.

 

I do however, have the internet.

 

If the tooling is worn or incomplete then he should remove the "add to cart" function from his website. Every single internet transaction I have heard of recently has resulted in money traded for nothing except blue language.

 

Craig W

[Clearwater]

I think Craig is spot on - it's their representation on the site that something is available, can be added to the basket , is charged for but then doesn't arrive. Coupled to weak post sales communications, you have a recipe for a PR disaster.

 

No-one doubts the proprietor is doing his best but as Edwardian put earlier, he looks to have bitten off more than he can chew. As others observe, there is plainly some demand for some of the kits / ranges. It may be that retooling costs make some ranges too expensive to reintroduce but as Edwardian says an unsentimental business plan is required coupled to a communication plan saying why some items are withdrawn and then a website that doesn't sell unavailable items

 

The contrast to wizard is sharp - I make a few clicks and a day or so later what I've ordered arrives..it's not impossible to manage

 

David

Edited June 11, 2016 by Clearwater

[cctransuk]

I do wish ill informed people would stop talking about "Mr Coopercraft" and start talking about Paul Dunn. Better still, talk to the man, he attends enough shows for most people to have access to him.

 

He is doing his best to return historic ranges to the market but many of the toolsets are worn out or incomplete. He produces what he can so, for example, most of the Blacksmith etches are available but not complete kits. He advises people to place orders directly with him for what he does have available as he admits his track record at coping with internet orders is not good.

 

Slaters did not supply him with the full set of tools required to enable him to continue production of their 4mm range of kits. The very fact that they are still producing kits for Powsides (having "sold" the production rights of the complete range to him) provides proof of this.

 

If Paul Dunn has issues with what Slaters sold to him, and in consequence cannot produce full kits, then he should be taking that up with Slaters; not offering for sale that which he can't produce.

 

Surely he was not naive enough to part with money without checking exactly what he is buying?

 

If he can't cope with web orders, his website should simply list *exactly* what he can supply, at what price, and invite written orders with cheques - not rocket science, surely?

 

It's exactly what I did with Cambridge Custom Transfers until recently.

 

He needs to get his act together, and stop making excuses or bleating about Slaters.

 

...... and apologists are not helping him at all !

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[uax6]

CoY,

 

I believe that the 247 range is available from Stevenson Carriages, well certainly the castings are. I keep meaning to place an order!

 

Andy G

[lofty1966]

I phoned Mr Dunn about 18 months ago to obtain some etched luggage grills and some spare gwr monster windows.

Yes yes , no problem. 3 months later phoned again "where are they ?" ,"grills out of stock , be a couple of months til etch supplier runs some more".

Gave up and got some grills from brass masters, took all of about a week.

Made my own windows.

All stuff still ' on order' with Coopercraft....didn't seem much point on wasting money on a phone call (from Canada) to cancel (seeing as it's never going to come anyway.

I got told off last year on here for saying he is as much use as a chocolate teapot but I think I stand by that remark !

[Nile]

At Railex I found some 6-wheel Midland coach chassis (etches) on sale, something I've seen before on his stand. He also had plenty of the injection moulded parts for the coaches. Does this mean he's able to produce some of the ex-Slaters parts?

[Tim Dubya]

Also for Coopercraft; read the Phoenix/BSL range of coach kits. A rich range of prototype kits vanished into the ether!

 

Oh they still exist, I wasted two years of membership fees for SRG to try and get hold of some Ironclad P+P kits (members only when I joined).  My £80 order was sent two and a half years ago - still nothing!

 

I appreciate the sales officer had a series of bereavements a while back but still advertising kits on their website in production and available to order, really is taking the pi$$, hey Chris?

 

Disgruntled of 71G

 

 

Edit: Ordered a set of etched sides from Bill Bedford in the end - delivered when he said they would and even got sent a replacement set of etches FoC due to an error in the original artwork - thanks Bill.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Tim Dubya

[BG John]

Following a morning of research, I need some Coopercraft 1004 4 plank opens, and 1002 loco coal wagons. My tools are poised to chop them about to convert to broad gauge the moment they arrive!

 

Anyone know where I can find some?

[Retro_man]

Following a morning of research, I need some Coopercraft 1004 4 plank opens, and 1002 loco coal wagons. My tools are poised to chop them about to convert to broad gauge the moment they arrive!

 

Anyone know where I can find some?

 

Hello,

 

I have 1 x CC1004 and 11 x CC1002 wagon kits in stock. Unfortunately postage from Canada may be prohibitive but I would be happy to give you a quote if you let me know your requirements.

Items shown on our website are in stock, we promptly reply to all emails and always ship within one business day of receipt of payment.

http://www.modelrailwayimports.com/products.php?BID=12&CID=15

 

Steve

Model Railway Imports

Canada

[BG John]

Thanks Steve, but I think I'll see what I can find in the UK. I only need one or maybe two CC1002, but more than one CC1004.

[The Stationmaster]

Following a morning of research, I need some Coopercraft 1004 4 plank opens, and 1002 loco coal wagons. My tools are poised to chop them about to convert to broad gauge the moment they arrive!

 

Anyone know where I can find some?

 

They do seem to turn up at swapmeets and the like - presumably acquired by traders from shop closure stock or whatever.  so if there are any such events down your way it might be worth having a  good look round and rooting through the boxes of 'assorted kits' .

[teaky]

Cooper Craft only acquired Slaters 4mm kits.  7mm went elsewhere stayed with Slaters.

Edited June 11, 2016 by teaky

[raymw]

iirc, there was a swap/cash adjustment between Slaters/Paul  and Coopercraft 4mm/7mm which seemed to go wrong, at least from Paul's point of view. Nothing has changed for the better in the last year, then,  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66297-news-from-cooper-craftblacksmithslaterskirk-lnermailcoach-kits/

[BG John]

They do seem to turn up at swapmeets and the like - presumably acquired by traders from shop closure stock or whatever.  so if there are any such events down your way it might be worth having a  good look round and rooting through the boxes of 'assorted kits' .

There don't seem to be many of those around this way, but I'll try to look out for them. There's nothing on eBay at the moment.

 

I thought I might have had some, but I only seem to have two of each of the ones I want, both finished in EM, and one part built loco coal wagon that would be difficult to slice up to convert to broad gauge.

[Edwardian]

I do wish ill informed people would stop talking about "Mr Coopercraft" and start talking about Paul Dunn. Better still, talk to the man, he attends enough shows for most people to have access to him.

 

He is doing his best to return historic ranges to the market but many of the toolsets are worn out or incomplete. He produces what he can so, for example, most of the Blacksmith etches are available but not complete kits. He advises people to place orders directly with him for what he does have available as he admits his track record at coping with internet orders is not good.

 

Slaters did not supply him with the full set of tools required to enable him to continue production of their 4mm range of kits. The very fact that they are still producing kits for Powsides (having "sold" the production rights of the complete range to him) provides proof of this.

 

I'm afraid that line of argument won't do at all in these circumstances, and I do not think such a 'defence' actually does poor Mr Coopercraft any favours, as it's hardly our fault that we can't get service:

 

- Mr Coopercraft does not, so far as I have noticed, advertise his real name on the website.  No reason why he should.  No reason why I should know it's Paul Dunn.  That is a name that means nothing to me as a returnee to the hobby.

 

- We are not all members of the Ancient Order of Crusty Old Modellers who all know each other by sight and unique body odour.  Some of us are just Joe Public. The company has a website and contact details for people like us.  Why should I travel the country trying to track him down at a show?  Put another way, why can't he answer an email? 

 

- In this day and age, if you are a B2C business with an e-commerce website but you can't "cope" with internet orders (or, seemingly, email), really you need to hire someone who can or just give up.

 

- I am not about to congratulate anyone in business for doing his inadequate best.  Strictly, I don't have to accept that cottage industry incompetents are a special case.  If they set themselves up in business they should deliver what they say they sell.  In practice I believe we should extend considerable leeway.  Such suppliers are hobbyists too and don't exactly do it to become millionaires!  However, this company has a very bad record of some standing and it maintains a website showing everything yet appears to supply almost nothing.  That suggests Mr Coopercraft should be looking for buyers or investors (my original point) because however much he is trying, he is clearly not succeeding.    

 

I can have all the sympathy in the world for him as an individual, but if he does not supply the product or even answer queries, naturally that will lead to frustration on the part of would-be customers.

[The Stationmaster]

I wonder if he is still a member of RMweb?

[Edwardian]

I wonder if he is still a member of RMweb?

 

Well, if he is I am sure that some kind friends have provided him with a false passport and smuggled him over the border to safety.

 

I don't want to have a go at the guy.  His intentions seem to have been the best.  Unfortunately, we all know what that means in terms of where the paved road leads.  If he won't even acknowledge a potential customer ....

 

I'd be inclined to help him, but we don't really know the position, though that's just the point; we don't know.  Communicating with one's public can go a long way.

 

Sadly, I think we have to assume that most of these cherished ranges are gone for good.

[Clearwater]

I wonder if he is still a member of RMweb?

If he is and is lurking on this thread, I hope he realises than the tone of the comment is to help and offer constructive criticism and suggestions rather than denigrate.