More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[billbedford]

 

I alo had a problem with the early GW grey livery, but in my case, it was the lack of "proper" Great Western wagon grey paint in any case. Being in Australia, it is not easy to come by, and many shops in Britain have been very difficult about posting paints, even though the regulations have been relaxed slightly and clarified recently. 

 

 

There is no 'proper' grey livery paint. Wagon grey was a mixture of white lead and black pigments. The white lead oxidised to an almost black over time, so wagons got progressively darker in traffic. The effect can be seen on these two MR brake vans, where the one on the left has recently been repainted while the right hand one is getting close to its shopping date.

 

If you are going to mix your grey paints, I would suggest that you use a cream or magnolia instead of white, as this will counteract the 'blueness' of modern titanium dioxide pigments.

Edited July 27, 2016 by billbedford

[Spitfire2865]

There is no 'proper' grey livery paint. Wagon grey was a mixture of white lead and black pigments. The white lead oxidised to an almost black over time, so wagons got progressively darker in traffic. The effect can be seen on these two MR brake vans, where the one on the left has recently been repainted while the right hand one is getting close to its shopping date.

 

If you are going to mix your grey paints, I would suggest that you use a cream or magnolia instead of white, as this will counteract the 'blueness' of modern titanium dioxide pigments.

And that is precicely why I prefer grey liveried wagons. No matter the shade you use, it is theoretically correct.

[BG John]

And that is precicely why I prefer grey liveried wagons. No matter the shade you use, it is theoretically correct.

But you need to keep a photo like the one Bill linked to handy to prove that you're right, rather than just being lazy and sloppy!! I think that's the most convincing picture I've seen for varying the colour on almost every wagon.

[Compound2632]

There is no 'proper' grey livery paint. Wagon grey was a mixture of white lead and black pigments. The white lead oxidised to an almost black over time, so wagons got progressively darker in traffic. The effect can be seen on these two MR brake vans, where the one on the left has recently been repainted while the right hand one is getting close to its shopping date.

 

If you are going to mix your grey paints, I would suggest that you use a cream or magnolia instead of white, as this will counteract the 'blueness' of modern titanium dioxide pigments.

 

 

And that is precicely why I prefer grey liveried wagons. No matter the shade you use, it is theoretically correct.

 

 

But you need to keep a photo like the one Bill linked to handy to prove that you're right, rather than just being lazy and sloppy!! I think that's the most convincing picture I've seen for varying the colour on almost every wagon.

The photo Bill links to has been with me all my proper modelling life, being reproduced as plates 59 & 60 in Vol. 1 of "Midland Wagons" - thanks Bill for bringing us back to the Midland! What this close-up of the two brake vans masks but is clearer in the full photo, is the line of wagons immediately behind - about a dozen MR wagons of various types but all in a uniform grey that is between that of the two brake vans. The location is Derby, so presumably they're new into traffic after a visit to the works. There was a standard shade, at least that week! So what is going on with the very light brake van? All but one of the other MR wagons in the photo are weathered to darker shades, with the dark brake van being the extreme. The odd one out is a 3-plank dropside (D305 or its precursor) in Engineer's livery - large E D lettering - this looks darker and somehow glossier, with the beveled tops of the planks standing out as highlights rather than looking darker or disappearing into the murk on the other wagons - presumably this is the Engineer's "red" livery. (Red oxide? Carriage/locomotive undercoat? "Locomotive brown"?) Apologies for discussing a photo those of you without the book can't see. It would be even better on radio...

 

I count about 40 Midland wagons in this photo, of which 22 are D299 5-plank opens... Bill?

 

Brilliant tip about using something with some yellow content to counteract the blue element in grey - see my comment at the beginning about the blueness of my D299 wagon compared to the D305. This is only really evident in the photo, not on the model under normal room daylight - but lighting is a whole other question.

[BG John]

I was surprised how light the lightest brake van was, compared to the other wagons. The MR lettering is barely visible. I assumed the others had been in traffic for a while. Were brake vans painted any differently to wagons?

[Compound2632]

I was surprised how light the lightest brake van was, compared to the other wagons. The MR lettering is barely visible. I assumed the others had been in traffic for a while. Were brake vans painted any differently to wagons?

 

There are no grounds for supposing so. There are a couple of Derby official photos in "Midland Wagons" Vol. 2 that show newly-built brake vans posed with other new stock and they're clearly the same shade. Admittedly these are both very early post-grouping, c. 1923, so Midland livery with LMS in place of M R.

 

[57xx]

Was the general adoption of white for the ends of handbrake levers, and for handbrake wheels, perhaps introduced during WW2, alongside black-out regulations?

 

Nope. There are stacks of pre-war pictures of wagons with white brake handles dating back well into the early 20's in "GWR Goods Wagons"

Edited July 27, 2016 by 57xx

[57xx]

The "Fringe" on a waterslide definitely does nothing for the look of a model,

whether or not it is spot on prototype.

 

Several kit makers have been pumping out kits for a lifetime of many in the

hobby, yet we still get the kits with original waterslide transfers.

 

Rub-on transfers are by far a better deal for getting a crisp and near finish

to the RTR with their Pad Printed liveries; but this introduces another problem

of transferring very small items and print.

There's nothing wrong with waterslide when done properly. In some repsects, they are better than rub on as they are not as thick and can look painted on. The trick is two-fold. 1) use a gloss base as already mentioned. 2) Use Microsol. This removes the silvering altogether and also "melts" the transfer into the nooks and crannies so it looks part of the wagon and not something placed on top of it.

[Compound2632]

 

Nope. There are stacks of pre-war pictures of wagons with white brake handles dating back well into the early 20's in "GWR Goods Wagons"

Moral: work from a photo of your prototype at your period! Alternatively, model a prototype no-one's got a photo of (like my V4 with sunroof).

 

There's nothing wrong with waterslide when done properly. In some repsects, they are better than rub on as they are not as thick and can look painted on. The trick is two-fold. 1) use a gloss base as already mentioned. 2) Use Microsol. This removes the silvering altogether and also "melts" the transfer into the nooks and crannies so it looks part of the wagon and not something placed on top of it.

I'm going to find out if this works on my next couple of wagons currently being built; please bear with me as I'm planning to post a few more made earlier first.

[Compound2632]

There are no grounds for supposing so. There are a couple of Derby official photos in "Midland Wagons" Vol. 2 that show newly-built brake vans posed with other new stock and they're clearly the same shade. Admittedly these are both very early post-grouping, c. 1923, so Midland livery with LMS in place of M R.

I've just spotted another example of very light grey, "Midland Wagons" Vol. 1 Plate 93, a D299 wagon in traffic but clearly very recently repainted. It's no earlier than 1917, as the wagon number is painted on the body...

 

 

Nope. There are stacks of pre-war pictures of wagons with white brake handles dating back well into the early 20's in "GWR Goods Wagons"

... and the end of the brake lever is painted white. I've found one other example, also no earlier than 1917; evidently for MR and LMS wagons the practice was rare, whatever may have been the norm elsewhere.

[billbedford]

And that is precicely why I prefer grey liveried wagons. No matter the shade you use, it is theoretically correct.

 

 

Sorry, not true. The mixture of white lead to black was always specified, usually by weight. The LNWR used a 50:50 mixed white lead to black, while the Midland used 28:1 which gave a very light grey. Which meant that while some Midland wagons could be as dark as new LNWR wagons, no LNWR wagons could be as light as most Midland wagons.

Edited July 28, 2016 by billbedford

[Spitfire2865]

Sorry, not true. The mixture of white lead to black was always specified, usually by weight. The LNWR used a 50:50 mixed white lead to black, while the Midland used 18:1 which gave a very light grey. Which meant that while some Midland wagons could be as dark as new LNWR wagons, no LNWR wagons could be as light as most Midland wagons.

I did not know the mixtures. Good to know.

My statement was more about older traffic wagons which have weathered, or wagons which were repainted, which if I remember correctly, the mixture was a lot less strict due to mixing batches.

 

Do you by any chance know the paint mixture for L&Y wagons?

[Penlan]

Do you by any chance know the paint mixture for L&Y wagons?

No, but in an article here, the kit builder used Tamiya German Grey, other models in the L&Y domain seem to use a 'mid-grey primer' (sic), however looking at L&Y prototype photo's, your back into 50 Shades.........

 

One aspect of these discussions that seems to be missed is the original photographs and how they were printed off - Or of course how long their exposure was.

Apart from the obvious b&w element, I have a number of contact prints of the same subject (Swansea) from the original GWR whole plate glass negatives when OPC first had them back long ago, all of the prints are different in depth of greys, the same wagons range from light to mid/dark grey, depending on which print you look at.

Those plates were then copied to 35mm film, some of those have lost a lot of detail - I also have these later prints for comparison, so can verify that.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Penlan

[sharris]

Sorry, not true. The mixture of white lead to black was always specified, usually by weight. The LNWR used a 50:50 mixed white lead to black, while the Midland used 28:1 which gave a very light grey. Which meant that while some Midland wagons could be as dark as new LNWR wagons, no LNWR wagons could be as light as most Midland wagons.

 

What happened with LMS re-liverying of pre-grouping freight stock? I have seen it said that officially LMS freight grey is like MR grey but a little bit darker. Would a re-liveried LNWR wagon keep the somewhat darker LNWR grey but with LMS lettering, at least at first, or were all regions made to conform to the same MR-ish painting scheme on updating the livery?

[Spitfire2865]

What happened with LMS re-liverying of pre-grouping freight stock? I have seen it said that officially LMS freight grey is like MR grey but a little bit darker. Would a re-liveried LNWR wagon keep the somewhat darker LNWR grey but with LMS lettering, at least at first, or were all regions made to conform to the same MR-ish painting scheme on updating the livery?

I have read the LMS just threw all unused paint into vats and mixed old batches together, so there could be subtle variations.

[Compound2632]

The photo Bill links to has been with me all my proper modelling life, being reproduced as plates 59 & 60 in Vol. 1 of "Midland Wagons" - thanks Bill for bringing us back to the Midland! What this close-up of the two brake vans masks but is clearer in the full photo, is the line of wagons immediately behind - about a dozen MR wagons of various types but all in a uniform grey that is between that of the two brake vans. The location is Derby, so presumably they're new into traffic after a visit to the works. There was a standard shade, at least that week! So what is going on with the very light brake van? All but one of the other MR wagons in the photo are weathered to darker shades, with the dark brake van being the extreme. The odd one out is a 3-plank dropside (D305 or its precursor) in Engineer's livery - large E D lettering - this looks darker and somehow glossier, with the beveled tops of the planks standing out as highlights rather than looking darker or disappearing into the murk on the other wagons - presumably this is the Engineer's "red" livery. (Red oxide? Carriage/locomotive undercoat? "Locomotive brown"?) Apologies for discussing a photo those of you without the book can't see. It would be even better on radio...

 

I count about 40 Midland wagons in this photo, of which 22 are D299 5-plank opens... Bill?

 

Brilliant tip about using something with some yellow content to counteract the blue element in grey - see my comment at the beginning about the blueness of my D299 wagon compared to the D305. This is only really evident in the photo, not on the model under normal room daylight - but lighting is a whole other question.

 

Apologies, I was being slapdash - the location is not Derby but, as stated in the caption in "Midland Wagons", Wigston. The building in the background is identified as a "Wagon Repair Shed" on the 1912 25" OS map (http://maps.nls.uk/view/114594828). I think this is probably a Midland establishment, with the smaller building in front being the local base for repairs by private wagon firms - it's just possible to make out boards with the names "S J Clay", "Gloster", "Hurst Nelson & Co Ltd". (I haven't got the London to Leicester volume of the Midland Railway Distance Diagrams which would settle this point.)  I think it's likely that the line of Midland wagons in uniform grey are freshly repaired and repainted here, in that week's local interpretation of the "standard" grey.

 

 

No, but in an article here, the kit builder used Tamiya German Grey, other models in the L&Y domain seem to use a 'mid-grey primer' (sic), however looking at L&Y prototype photo's, your back into 50 Shades.........

 

One aspect of these discussions that seems to be missed is the original photographs and how they were printed off - Or of course how long their exposure was.

Apart from the obvious b&w element, I have a number of contact prints of the same subject (Swansea) from the original GWR whole plate glass negatives when OPC first had them back long ago, all of the prints are different in depth of greys, the same wagons range from light to mid/dark grey, depending on which print you look at.

Those plates were then copied to 35mm film, some of those have lost a lot of detail - I also have these later prints for comparison, so can verify that.

 

Penlan, I think that's another very good point; if the variation between different prints from the same plate is so great, it's clear it's well nigh impossible to compare different photographs. However, one can still compare wagons within the same photograph, as in the Wigston shot. It's just unfortunate the photographer failed to include his friend with the standard grey scale chart in the shot... bother, that wouldn't help - there will be variations due to distance, especially in the thick atmosphere of an industrial area...

 

What happened with LMS re-liverying of pre-grouping freight stock? I have seen it said that officially LMS freight grey is like MR grey but a little bit darker. Would a re-liveried LNWR wagon keep the somewhat darker LNWR grey but with LMS lettering, at least at first, or were all regions made to conform to the same MR-ish painting scheme on updating the livery?

 

 

I have read the LMS just threw all unused paint into vats and mixed old batches together, so there could be subtle variations.

 

It would be good to have the references for these statements. Looking through Noel Coates' "Lancashire and Yorkshire Wagons" Vol. 1, there are examples of ex-L&YR wagons freshly turned out in early LMS livery that (with all caveats) looks like standard Midland light grey, which on the whole seems to be lighter than the L&YR shade; of course the L&YR official photos date from ten or more years earlier than the LMS officials... But there are also examples where the LMS lettering has been painted over worn and faded L&YR livery, with the letters L Y still visible. Were there just a handful of wagons given the full "Midland" treatment for the benefit of the official photographer and publicity department?

[Compound2632]

Do you by any chance know the paint mixture for L&Y wagons?

 

Hum... grey seems to have generated even more discussion than red, which wasn't what I was expecting! As far as the L&YR goes, I'm going to be wanting to know how to paint the "unpainted" pre-1901 (?) "livery"...

[Penlan]

Must be some 35 years ago now, but I recall attending a HMRS meeting for the Line Societies (I was LNWRSoc.,) and one of the topics, probably not in the main discussions, was how do you inform somebody in Australia, for example, which grey you are referring to, etc.,  Perhaps E.L.James could help out, though I understand they may be a bit tied up at the moment.

The concensus was to use the 'Stanley Gibbons Stamp Colour Guide', though it only has 200 colours. But it is the same colours wherever you are. 
I couldn't find the LNWR's Coach 'spilt milk' white (which is more like a light 'Duck Egg Blue') on the chart to start with....... 

Edited July 28, 2016 by Penlan

[Penlan]

 As far as the L&YR goes, I'm going to be wanting to know how to paint the "unpainted" pre-1901 (?) "livery"...

I expect it will depend what type of base the Varnish has....

[BG John]

Right, that's it. I'm going to paint all my wagons pink with purple spots, and if anyone criticises it I'll challenge them to prove me wrong .

[billbedford]

It would be good to have the references for these statements. Looking through Noel Coates' "Lancashire and Yorkshire Wagons" Vol. 1, there are examples of ex-L&YR wagons freshly turned out in early LMS livery that (with all caveats) looks like standard Midland light grey, which on the whole seems to be lighter than the L&YR shade; of course the L&YR official photos date from ten or more years earlier than the LMS officials... But there are also examples where the LMS lettering has been painted over worn and faded L&YR livery, with the letters L Y still visible. Were there just a handful of wagons given the full "Midland" treatment for the benefit of the official photographer and publicity department?

 

 

 I think the answer to this is, if the wagon came in for repairs to, say the running gear, then it had just the the LMS Lettering. On the other hand if some planks needed replacing it was given the full paint job.

[Quarryscapes]

Right, that's it. I'm going to paint all my wagons pink with purple spots, and if anyone criticises it I'll challenge them to prove me wrong .

 

I used to have a barbie pink carriage in my 009 collection, part of the FR 'Jazz train' of the Colonel Stephens era. Strangely it doesn't look wrong either. 

 

[BG John]

I used to have a barbie pink carriage in my 009 collection, part of the FR 'Jazz train' of the Colonel Stephens era. Strangely it doesn't look wrong either. 

 

ebay.jpg

But no purple spots!

[SRman]

But no purple spots!

 

No purple spots, just pink ones!

 

(With shades of Tommy Cooper in that answer!!).

[sharris]

 

It would be good to have the references for these statements. 

 

As far as my comment goes re: LMS and MR greys, Essery's MR Wagons and LMS Wagons books give similar recipes for MR wagon grey and LMS wagon grey.