More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

This '4 Plank' at Blakey Junction, Rosedale branch certainly had a single brake block and I think grease axleboxes in 1928, just wish I could see it's number...

 

http://image-archive.org.uk/wp-content/MAX/2011_04/165.jpg

 

Paul, thanks - that exemplifies the more general observation that the railway in the 1930s - and even 1950s - was essentially the late Victorian railway with a thin veneer of superheated locomotives and corridor carriages.

[Brassey]

 

The LNWR wagon books do not yet cover coal wagons such as D54; these should be in the forthcoming volume 3.  On the principal that there's a prototype for everything it is likely that the single brake survived on some upgraded wagons.

 

The D9 actually predates the D4 and there is a picture of a D9 on page 83 of vol 1 in the condition you have modelled.  This was photographed in 1923 with altered brakes and oil axle boxes but still in pre 1908 livery!  Although a rarity again this proves there is a prototype for everything 

 

Peter

[Compound2632]

The LNWR wagon books do not yet cover coal wagons such as D54; these should be in the forthcoming volume 3.  On the principal that there's a prototype for everything it is likely that the single brake survived on some upgraded wagons.

 

The D9 actually predates the D4 and there is a picture of a D9 on page 83 of vol 1 in the condition you have modelled.  This was photographed in 1923 with altered brakes and oil axle boxes but still in pre 1908 livery!  Although a rarity again this proves there is a prototype for everything 

 

Peter

 

Peter, I'm hoping to get the three volumes for Christmas, meanwhile I'm working on the principle that ignorance is bliss - too much prototype information and I'll get too hung up on accuracy to make any progress!

[LNWR lives on]

Hi Compound

 

See the below link for information on the LNWR Diagram 54 Wagon

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Wagons/coal/Diag054.php

 

Also, don't forget if you get the LNWR Wagons books there is a supplement to Volume 1 which contains what information has been found on some of the rarer and more obscure types of LNWR Wagon

 

If you want a copy send me a PM

 

Loving seeing you model some LNWR wagons. I found that the Pressfix transfers from HMRS were easier to apply and make correction for lining up before final application of water, haven't been brave enough to try the Methfix yet which others recommend highly

 

Cheers

 

David

[Compound2632]

Hi Compound

 

See the below link for information on the LNWR Diagram 54 Wagon

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Wagons/coal/Diag054.php

 

Also, don't forget if you get the LNWR Wagons books there is a supplement to Volume 1 which contains what information has been found on some of the rarer and more obscure types of LNWR Wagon

 

If you want a copy send me a PM

 

Loving seeing you model some LNWR wagons. I found that the Pressfix transfers from HMRS were easier to apply and make correction for lining up before final application of water, haven't been brave enough to try the Methfix yet which others recommend highly

 

Cheers

 

David

 

Hi David, Thanks for drawing my attention to the supplement which I might otherwise have missed - I see it's listed on the "Books" section of the LNWR Society website. My info on D54 did indeed come from the page you link to. Like you, I'm happy working with the Pressfix transfers but going back to post #1 you'll see that I struggled with Methfix, at least for smaller things like individual digits - they're just too mobile.

 

My next post will include a short dissertation on the history of Ratio's LNWR wagon kits...

[Edwardian]

Hi David, Thanks for drawing my attention to the supplement which I might otherwise have missed - I see it's listed on the "Books" section of the LNWR Society website. My info on D54 did indeed come from the page you link to. Like you, I'm happy working with the Pressfix transfers but going back to post #1 you'll see that I struggled with Methfix, at least for smaller things like individual digits - they're just too mobile.

 

My next post will include a short dissertation on the history of Ratio's LNWR wagon kits...

 

Look forward to that, as I contemplate dusting off mine!

 

If I might ask you to share some of your Midland expertise ...

 

I am currently modelling 1905.  In terms of most company goods wagons, this is the small letter era.  The GER did not adopt its large 'G E' until circa 1903, the GWR, as you have noted, adopted larger initials from 1904.  LSWR and LB&SC were early adopters of larger lettering (c.1891 and 1897 respectively), but the big 18" 'LBSC' letters did not come in until 1911.  The Premier Line, as noted, waited until 1908 to put any initials at all on its wagons, and these were of the large variety then prevalent.

 

So, in 1905, most or all, depending upon the company, company wagons feature small letters. What about the Midland?  Was it an early adopter of large lettering? I note you model "early Edwardian", so I am assuming a relatively early date for the big 'M R'.  Further, I cannot recall a picture of a Midland wagon in anything other than those very large initials.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Edwardian

[sharris]

 

So, in 1905, most or all, depending upon the company, company wagons feature small letters. What about the Midland?  Was it an early adopter of large lettering? I cannot recall a picture of a Midland wagon in anything other than those very large initials.

 

I can only ever remember seeing Midland wagons with no letters or big letters. I've got the MR wagons books at home, so I can check the dates on some photos against the lettering later (later being about 5 hours away!).

[BG John]

Is there a guide of any sort to wagon liveries? Like Edwardian, I'm modelling 1905 (GWR in EM and Kent & East Sussex Rly in O), so need to know the liveries of a variety of companies at that date. If there isn't one, would it be practical to produce something?

[Edwardian]

Is there a guide of any sort to wagon liveries? Like Edwardian, I'm modelling 1905 (GWR in EM and Kent & East Sussex Rly in O), so need to know the liveries of a variety of companies at that date. If there isn't one, would it be practical to produce something?

 

Interesting point, John, as the literature tends to be by company, rather than period.  It takes a long time and a substantial investment to amass the literature on all the pre-Group companies whose wagons and through coaches might appear on a given layout!

 

Thus far, I have expanded my knowledge outwards from my traditionally GWR base to encompass GE, LNWR (to a limited extent), LBSC and LSWR. Next things to mug up on are GN, MR and SECR, but I lack dedicated volumes for any of those.  I believe that the GNR had a particularly interesting 'small letter' variant of 'G Northern R', pre-1898, but I don't have the detail I'd like for this company.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Edwardian

[jwealleans]

Nigel Digby did a series of supplements in British Railway Modelling in the 1990s covering the liveries of the pregrouping companies.  I have a feeling they have been gathered together and published, but it's not something I possess (having most of the original BRM pieces).  They may be on his website.

[billbedford]

Is there a guide of any sort to wagon liveries? 

 

 

No, The problem is that the early years of the twentieth century were a transitional period for wagon liveries. Which means that it was possible to see maybe three wagons of the same type and from the same company each with different liveries.

[Compound2632]

What about the Midland?  Was it an early adopter of large lettering?

 

Hi Edwardian. In a word, YES! According to my treasured but disintegrating copy of "Midland Style" by George Dow (HMRS 1975):

 

"In the early 1880s the company made a notable effort to rid itself of privately-owned wagons, many of which were dumb-buffered, by buying those registered on its system. Under their new ownership these wagons could immediately be recognised by the large white letters MR which were painted on their sides. This practice was extended to open goods wagons in the middle 1880s and, subsequently, to covered goods wagons and some other units of the fleet. It was duly copied by most other railway companies."

 

"Because of the presence of much external wooden framing, most of the covered wagons had to display smaller lettering when their turn came. It is believed that cattle wagons were the first to carry the company's initials, in the early 1890s. [...] Lettering of other covered wagons began in the mid-1890s."

 

So I think it's a safe assumption that most ordinary open and covered vans would be lettered by our period. The large letters were 21" high - three planks - and the smaller letters on vans 12 1/2" - two planks, the planks used for vans being smaller. Fortunately for us, running numbers or carrying capacity weren't painted on until 1917 so no fiddly small digits to deal with (apart from tare weights...) [Opens - I think numbers may have started appearing on the sliding doors of vans earlier.] Running numbers had always been on cast-iron plates on the solebar - I rely on no-one looking so closely as to notice that I'm limited to the half-dozen numbers that come on the Slaters Pressfix or Methfix sheet!

[Compound2632]

No, The problem is that the early years of the twentieth century were a transitional period for wagon liveries. Which means that it was possible to see maybe three wagons of the same type and from the same company each with different liveries.

 

Exactly - at least for all those companies trying to catch up with Midland practice!

[Compound2632]

so need to know the liveries of a variety of companies at that date.

... and for the previous decade at least.

[Edwardian]

Hi Edwardian. In a word, YES! According to my treasured but disintegrating copy of "Midland Style" by George Dow (HMRS 1975):

 

"In the early 1880s the company made a notable effort to rid itself of privately-owned wagons, many of which were dumb-buffered, by buying those registered on its system. Under their new ownership these wagons could immediately be recognised by the large white letters MR which were painted on their sides. This practice was extended to open goods wagons in the middle 1880s and, subsequently, to covered goods wagons and some other units of the fleet. It was duly copied by most other railway companies."

 

"Because of the presence of much external wooden framing, most of the covered wagons had to display smaller lettering when their turn came. It is believed that cattle wagons were the first to carry the company's initials, in the early 1890s. [...] Lettering of other covered wagons began in the mid-1890s."

 

So I think it's a safe assumption that most ordinary open and covered vans would be lettered by our period. The large letters were 21" high - three planks - and the smaller letters on vans 12 1/2" - two planks, the planks used for vans being smaller. Fortunately for us, running numbers or carrying capacity weren't painted on until 1917 so no fiddly small digits to deal with (apart from tare weights...) [Opens - I think numbers may have started appearing on the sliding doors of vans earlier.] Running numbers had always been on cast-iron plates on the solebar - I rely on no-one looking so closely as to notice that I'm limited to the half-dozen numbers that come on the Slaters Pressfix or Methfix sheet!

 

Perfect, Stephen, many thanks.

 

James

[Compound2632]

Next things to mug up on are GN, MR and SECR, but I lack dedicated volumes for any of those. 

 

If anyone is looking for Essery's "Midland Wagons" and happens to be in the Yorkshire Dales/Lake District, there were two sets in second-hand bookshops in Sedbergh a fortnight ago - one in the Information Centre/Second-Hand bookshop and one in Westward Books. Don't all rush - it's a very small town...

 

I'm back there next week - perhaps I should corner the market!

 

Apologies for the multiple posts and consequent self-thread-inflation - I didn't plan ahead far enough to multi-quote.

[BG John]

No, The problem is that the early years of the twentieth century were a transitional period for wagon liveries. Which means that it was possible to see maybe three wagons of the same type and from the same company each with different liveries.

 

... and for the previous decade at least.

Which is why it would be so useful. I think I've worked out what I'm going to do with GWR wagons, with a mix of red with small lettering, some red ones weathered to almost grey, and some mostly recently painted grey ones with large lettering, but gathering information on companies I know little about, maybe just for one wagon, is a different matter. At least the Midland seems fairly straightforward, as their wagons turned up everywhere, but other companies seem more murky.

 

I don't see why this information can't be compiled though, not for a specific date, but for all known pre-grouping dates. It's all out there somewhere, but not presented in the most useful form for modellers of other railways.

[BG John]

If anyone is looking for Essery's "Midland Wagons" and happens to be in the Yorkshire Dales/Lake District, there were two sets in second-hand bookshops in Sedbergh a fortnight ago - one in the Information Centre/Second-Hand bookshop and one in Westward Books. Don't all rush - it's a very small town...

 

I'm back there next week - perhaps I should corner the market!

 

Apologies for the multiple posts and consequent self-thread-inflation - I didn't plan ahead far enough to multi-quote.

There are plenty of copies in cyberspace too.

[Penlan]

Also, don't forget if you get the LNWR Wagons books there is a supplement to Volume 1 which contains what information has been found on some of the rarer and more obscure types of LNWR Wagon

Is the supplement incorporated into the hard cover Vol.2?

 

Being supportive of the LNWR Soc., though not a member, I have the soft Vol 2 and the supplement.

[LNWR lives on]

Hi Penlan,

 

I honestly dont know if it has been incorporated into the hard back Volume 2's. I believe that the new owner of Wild Swan has had the remaining Volume 2's rebound as hard backs. Personally I am happy with my softback version.

 

What I do know is in my position as Sales Officer of the L&NWRS I have copies of the supplement available ☺

 

David

[sharris]

I can only ever remember seeing Midland wagons with no letters or big letters. I've got the MR wagons books at home, so I can check the dates on some photos against the lettering later (later being about 5 hours away!).

Essery has this to say about lettering.

 

Open goods wagons began to be lettered with 21" initials (about 3 planks) from the mid 1880s. There are a few exceptions in his photo collection- some D299s used for loco coal were labelled 'LOCO COAL ONLY across the centre with MR above - all lettering a bit smaller (about 2 planks high).

 

Goods brakes and tariff brake vans followed with 21" initials.

 

Covered goods and cattle wagons got initials from the early 1890s. (Initials generally smaller than open wagons (the big initials don't fit between outside framing - some photos show small M.R. Inside one set of framing about 1 plank high , some show M R in separate panels about 2 planks high. Letters seem a bit of a moveable feast - sometimes on body, sometimes on doors. Inside framed vans appear to have the larger 21" letters. There is an implication in Essery's cattle wagon section that a small MR in one panel is an early version of the covered wagon livery (1890s) while it gets larger and spaced over two panels in a later (190? Livery).

[Compound2632]

Essery has this to say about lettering.

 

Open goods wagons began to be lettered with 21" initials (about 3 planks) from the mid 1880s. There are a few exceptions in his photo collection- some D299s used for loco coal were labelled 'LOCO COAL ONLY across the centre with MR above - all lettering a bit smaller (about 2 planks high).

 

Goods brakes and tariff brake vans followed with 21" initials.

 

Covered goods and cattle wagons got initials from the early 1890s. (Initials generally smaller than open wagons (the big initials don't fit between outside framing - some photos show small M.R. Inside one set of framing about 1 plank high , some show M R in separate panels about 2 planks high. Letters seem a bit of a moveable feast - sometimes on body, sometimes on doors. Inside framed vans appear to have the larger 21" letters. There is an implication in Essery's cattle wagon section that a small MR in one panel is an early version of the covered wagon livery (1890s) while it gets larger and spaced over two panels in a later (190? Livery).

 

Essery's remarks in "Midland Wagons" read as if derived directly from "Midland Style" - see #117 above. I precised the latter - you are right to add the comment about 9" M.R lettering as the first style for cattle wagons and the 21" lettering for brake vans, meat vans, banana vans etc. The rule seems to have been to use the biggest lettering that would fit! The final type of cattle wagons, with only one top plank, had perforce to revert to smaller 6" letters, with the full stop: "M.R". As far as I can work out, timber trucks never got any lettering and there are certainly other exceptions.

[Compound2632]

Having been thoroughly bitten by the Earlestown bug, I dug deep in my stock boxes and found some of the wagons I built from Ratio kits back in the early 1980s. The paint job wasn’t up to my current standards, so it was into the stripper bath – Precision’s “Superstrip”. Alan Gibson waisted bearings were fitted – it’s a bit tricky drilling out the rear of the axleboxes when the solebars are already fixed to the floor. I simply hold the bit between thumb and forefinger and gently rotate. A 3 mm bit is used to countersink for the bearing flange as well as 2 mm for the bearing body. The grease axlebox mouldings aren’t much wider than this, which is why I use waisted bearings – on the Midland wagons, with the more substantial Ellis axleboxs, I use standard 2 mm bearings. I had built one of the wagons with the scotch brake and the other with conventional brakes on both sides. I rearranged this to give both wagons conventional brakes on one side only, taking the opportunity to replace the solid safety loops with microstrip. Alan Gibson wheels and Slater’s 3-link couplings as usual. This time I primed with Halford’s grey then used the NBR grey again. Lettering, numbers and diamonds are from the HMRS Pressfix sheet and numberplates from the Ratio transfer sheet. I had the cunning idea of painting the raised letters LOCO in white first and then gently rubbing the grey off with fine emery paper. This didn’t work too well – I couldn’t avoid rubbing the surrounding area too – some touching up with more white and then grey again was needed.

 

 

Referring once again to the LNWR Society’s wagon pages, the 4-plank loco coal wagon is to D64, a design dating back to 1869, though this example has oil axleboxes as well as more modern brakes. With typical LNWR austerity, there are no doors – the unfortunate shed labourers had to shovel ten tons of coal by hand over the 3ft high sides.  (Of course the Midland managed one better – or worse – their D344 was for a doorless version of the standard D299 5-plank open dedicated to manure traffic: “To be returned to Nottingham when empty”…) Should the words “10 TONS” appear on the top plank? The other wagon is another D54 traffic coal wagon – with single-sided brakes it has a slightly higher tare weight than my previous one with the scotch brake. The remains of a load of some rather unsatisfactory lumps of plastic coal can just be seen – I forgot to cadge a lump of the real stuff on my last visit to my parents-in-law.

 

I also found the kit instructions. This pair of wagons came as Ratio kit 753:

 

 

This was one of three kits for pairs of LNWR wagons, one of each pair representing a wagon 15’6” over headstocks and the other 16’0”, with mix’n’match axleboxes – four oil and four grease – and the two varieties of brakes. The others were kit 752, representing a two-plank fixed-side wagon to D2 and the 4-plank wagon to D4 or D9 that we’ve already seen:

 

 

along with kit 751, representing a D1 one-plank wagon and a D62 two-plank dropside ballast wagon:

 

 

A cattle wagon was also promised:

 

 

Going by the transfer sheet, it would have been a “Medium” cattle wagon to D21 – these were 15’6” over headstocks so it could use the same underframe mouldings – though leaving one with spare parts for a 16’0” long wagon underframe:

 

 

These kits came out around 1980, at much the same time as the kits for the 50’ arc-roof corridor carriages that are still available – there must have been a LNWR enthusiast at Ratio at the time, in succession to the Midland enthusiast responsible for the 48’ Clayton lavatory composite and Bain arc-roof suburban carriages, along with the Johnson 2-4-0 and almost mythical 4-4-0. The instructions state that the kits were made with reference to Earlestown drawings in the HMRS collection supplemented by photos from the collection of R Essery; the prototype notes are by Philip A Millard, who is a co-author of several LNWR Society publications; and contact details are given for the HMRS and the Scalefour Society.

 

Something went wrong. The cattle wagon never appeared and the three kits already issued had disappeared from the catalogue by, I think, the late 1980s – certainly before the mid-1990s. It would seem surprising that sales of wagon kits would be that much weaker than of the carriage kits that have remained in the catalogue. I can imagine that they might not sell quite as steadily as the kits for GW opens and vans (how old are they?) and the other post-grouping wagons in the catalogue.

 

The D4/D9 4-plank open and D54 traffic coal wagon were re-packaged as “LMS Traffic Coal/4-Plank Wagons”, initially as kit 756 (according to one of my old boxes) and currently as kit 576 – was that an accidental permutation of the digits? The D62 ballast wagon lives on in the “Permanent Way Set”, kit 575 – though no longer paired with the really useful D1 wagon but with what I gather is a D48 bolster wagon. This is the current sprue for the body sides:

 

 

This doesn’t look as if the mould was modified as there’s only just enough room for the D48 sides and ends – the D1 parts wouldn’t fit there. So does tooling still exist for D1? What about the D2 two-plank and D64 local coal wagons? Does the tooling still exist?

 

I believe I bought all three kits when they first came out but I’ve yet to locate my builds from kits 751 and 752. I’ve also found a box for the Permanent Way kit 575 so I must have wagons from that somewhere too…

 

I succumbed to curiosity. Breaking with my Spartan resolve to concentrate on my existing stock of kits, I ordered new examples of kits 575 and 576, along with a set of underframes, kit 570. This gives parts for up to eight wagons, though I might stick at as few as four, as that’s as many as can have grease axleboxes, or five, limited by the number of sets of buffers supplied with the kits. I’m having fun with some kitbashing to other diagrams: watch this space!

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Brassey]

 

Removing the upper raised stanchions from the ballast wagon produces a D3, 2 plank open wagon with fall doors.

 

Some of the older kits do come up on a famous action site now and again.  And etches of "LOCO" and number plates also appear courtesy of a member that has posted on this thread. (no connection just a satisfied customer).

 

Peter

[BG John]

I started building the Ratio 752 kits many years ago, but the instructions have long since disappeared. Any chance of a copy please, so I can finish them?