More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[RThompson]

I would certainly be interested in knowing what happened to the moulds for a lot of ratio's earlier wagon kits as there was some both interesting and useful wagons

Edited August 17, 2016 by RThompson

[LNWR lives on]

The permanent way wagon set was announced in The Railway Modeller In May 1982 at a cost of just £4:83. The two wagon set traffic coal and 4 planker cost £3:45

[Compound2632]

On 17/08/2016 at 20:14, Brassey said:

Removing the upper raised stanchions from the ballast wagon produces a D3, 2 plank open wagon with fall doors.

 

Quite so - the easiest of my bashes and already in the paint shop:

 

 

On 17/08/2016 at 20:14, Brassey said:

And etches of "LOCO" and number plates also appear courtesy of a member that has posted on this thread. (no connection just a satisfied customer).

 

Yes, I'd noticed those, which I might try if I become sufficiently dissatisfied with what I've done. I've also noted his 3D printed LNW grease axlebox & spring units.

 

On 17/08/2016 at 20:22, BG John said:

I started building the Ratio 752 kits many years ago, but the instructions have long since disappeared. Any chance of a copy please, so I can finish them?

 

Please see PM

 

On 17/08/2016 at 21:02, LNWR lives on said:

The permanent way wagon set was announced in The Railway Modeller In May 1982 at a cost of just £4:83. The two wagon set traffic coal and 4 planker cost £3:45

 

Grief! Longer ago than I thought... My recent purchase of kits 575 and 576 plus the underframes came to about £40 including P&P. That'll work out at no more than £10 per wagon, or less if I squeeze five or six out of the components, which is not bad in this day and age - less than half the price of the Mousa D32. (Not that I'm taking issue with Bill's prices at all.) 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Mikkel]

Having been thoroughly bitten by the Earlestown bug, I dug deep in my stock boxes and found some of the wagons I built from Ratio kits back in the early 1980s. 

 

Thanks for your very useful overview of the Ratio LNWR sets. A couple of years ago I spent several long Google sessions trying to work out which sets had contained what. They turn up on ebay sometimes but  as you have described there is some confusion as to the description and numbering on the packages.

[meil]

There was also kit 755.

[Spitfire2865]

Has Ratio never made an LNWR van kit? Strange they have a range from Standard opens to coal wagons and more obscure such as D52, and less useful D12, yet no vans as far as Im aware. Of what they had produced already, a D32 or D88 would have fit in perfectly.

[nzgresleyfan]

There was also kit 755.

I'm pleased to see this one come up as I scored one really cheap a while back, it wouldn't normally feature on my purchase radar.  I know very little about these vehicles and have wondered whether they made it into BR days, my research efforts have so far been inconclusive.  Can anyone confirm one way or the other please?

 

I won't be upset if you say they didn't, I'll probably just paint them black anyway and invoke Rule 1 for their use on my future trainset!

[Brassey]

I'm pleased to see this one come up as I scored one really cheap a while back, it wouldn't normally feature on my purchase radar.  I know very little about these vehicles and have wondered whether they made it into BR days, my research efforts have so far been inconclusive.  Can anyone confirm one way or the other please?

 

I won't be upset if you say they didn't, I'll probably just paint them black anyway and invoke Rule 1 for their use on my future trainset!

 

The ballast stock has yet to appear in the LNWR Wagons series and hopefully will be in vol 3 so there is no definitive answer yet.  I have read that there was only ever a maximum of 2100 ballast wagons at any one time so the likelihood of any remaining into BR is unfortunately slim.  Peter

 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Brassey

[Penlan]

.

Has Ratio never made an LNWR van kit?   NO.

Of what they had produced already, a D32 or D88 would have fit in perfectly.

Although agreed the Dia. 32 (Door on one side only) may fit in with the other LNWR period wagons, they had been reduced to only 83 in number by 1919 - That's to say in stock, though probably not all in active revenue service..

From the surviving listings we can conclude there were approx.,

5,500 in service in 1894.

3,200 in 1902.

2,000 in 1910 and

83 on the 1919 stock Register.

 

The Dia 33. Doors either side BUT of different widths.... 6' one side with the 6' 8" wide roof door over it,

and only 5' wide on the other side - I bet a lot of people didn't know that little nuance.

Built between 1893 & 1904, some 6,000 Dia. 33's were built.

But already the later Dia. 87 had been authorised in 1904, omitting the roof door to start with.

 

So, Dia. 32 is currently available from Mousa Models.

Dia 33 was D&S models

Dia. 87 & Dia. 88 (produced in quantity from 1909) was/are Model Wagon Co. / David Geen.

Unfitted, through pipes and vacuum braked variations was/are available.

 

All E. & O. E.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Penlan

[Penlan]

The ballast stock has yet to appear in the LNWR Wagons series and hopefully will be in vol 3 so there is no definitive answer yet.  I have read that there was only ever a maximum of 2100 ballast wagons 

I think (circa) 2,100 may have been the total stock allocated to Ballast duties, being mindful also they were distributed amongst the various Divisions*.

In 1902 there were 1,555 Ballast wagons in a stock of 1,606 Ballast etc., stock.

In 1919, there were 96 Break Vans, 18 Cranes, 47 Rail wagons and 2,009 Wagons etc., (sic) Defined as Ballast Stock.

 

* Divisions there were numerous Divisions, both geographical and 'Trades'.

 

Once, a long time ago, 1980 'ish - Hon Sec and Editor to LNWR Society.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Penlan

[LNWR lives on]

I really should send you a membership leaflet penlan ☺

 

2100 is about right I believe for ballast wagons, though other suitable wagons with drop sides were employed as and when they could be 'aquired'

 

Be careful with the divisions as like alot of things there was a reorganisation of the divisions at some point. PWD is the safe bet, NWD and SD i think were two others

[Penlan]

2100 is about right I believe for ballast wagons, though other suitable wagons with drop sides were employed as and when they could be 'aquired'

Be careful with the divisions as like alot of things there was a reorganisation of the divisions at some point.

I have some photo's given to me by the Late Geoff Platt, originally from the late J.M.Dun at Bangor Shed.... which show more PO contractors wagons in a ballast train, than LNWR.

Yes, your right re. the Divisions etc.,     8 in 1890, 9 in 1903 and 10 in 1909 when the North London Railway was incorporated.

However this isn't the place to go into all that, but only to mention Dave Pennington did a fantastic job sorting them out.

[Compound2632]

On 18/08/2016 at 00:21, meil said:

There was also kit 755.

 

Intriguing that the kit numbers 755 and 756 morphed into 575 and 576! The number 754 doesn’t appear to have been used – perhaps this was going to be the cattle wagon?

 

I’ve started four wagons from my recent Ratio kit purchase. The 4-plank wagon from kit 576 has being built as a D4 with grease axleboxes and scotch brake and one of the dropside wagons from the Permanent Way set, kit 575, as a D3 by the simple expedient of cutting the end pillars down, as pointed out by Brassey and illustrated in post #130. Both these are currently in the paint shop.

 

The D3/D62 dropside wagons were 16’0” over headstocks, whereas the fixed-side 2-plank D2 was 15’6” and hence the version in kit 752 used the shorter underframe. In the Permanent Way kit, the short underframes are used for the bolster wagons which I’m less enthusiastic about, so I’m scratch-building a D2 body.

 

 

Sides are 40 thou Plastikard, with the grooves scribed on, scrawking with a 45° blade held perpendicular to the side to give the bevel in the top of the siderail and lower plank. The vertical strapping is 30 thou x 10 thou Microstrip. My first plan was to drill 0.5 mm holes and poke plastic rod through to represent the bolt heads but (a) the small bits I’ve got turned out to be a duff lot with no bite and (b) I came to doubt I could get the holes lined up well enough. I then thought of adding individual bolt heads made by dicing up 20 thou x 10 thou Microstrip but these proved (a) hard to cut square and (b) hard to position. The photo shows what I did instead – strips of 20 thou x 10 thou Microstrip lined up reasonably parallel. These are trimmed back to leave square(ish) bolt heads:

 

 

This might be thought rather an inefficient use of Microstrip; my excuse is that the packet I was using cost me 95p sometime around 1985! I’ve also added corner plates from 10 thou plasticard, with bolt heads embossed using a pair of compasses with a bluntish point. The corner plates are lightly scored on the inside of the bend; this helps them fold neatly with a nicely rounded outside bend. I just need to add the end pillars – 60 thou x 60 thou Plastikard should do (I think the originals are 4½” square timber).

 

My fourth wagon is going to be a 4-plank 8 ton coal wagon to D53, using the 5-plank D54 from kit 576 as my starting point. I began by removing the top plank from the side by scoring and snapping off and trimming down the end pillars ready to do the same on the end. I very carefully scraped the diagonal strapping off and made good the planking groves (only the RH end as I’m feeling my way here):

 

 

I drilled holes in the positions of the bolts for the new diagonal strapping:

 

 

… using a larger diameter than I would really have liked. This photo also shows the end cut down to size. Note how steeply angled the top of the end pillars are on LNWR wagons. (If one was feeling extravagant, one could save some labour and simply use the ends from the 4-plank open!) The replacement diagonal strapping is 30 thou x 10 thou Microstrip, scraped down to nearer 5 thou thick:

 

 

 

Bolt heads were embossed by poking through from behind with the blind end of one of my duff 0.5 mm drill bits. I’m not satisfied with how this experiment has turned out and anyway the alignment of the strapping where it meets the corner plate isn’t right so I’ll be scraping this effort off and trying again.

 

These four wagons use up two short (15’6”) and two long (16’0”) underframes. I might use another short underframe to make a D1 one-plank open but I’m casting around for ideas for 16’ wagons – in post #136 Penlan has listed the covered goods wagons – D33, D87 and D88 are all 16’ long. The 1909 date for D88 rules it out for my period; D87 might just be squeezed in as brand new – flat sides but lots of interesting strapping.  That leaves D33 as the ideal candidate but the outside framing looks challenging and, from Penlan’s notes, it seems there are many pifalls such as different door widths on either side – so that’s probably one not to be thought of until I’ve got the LNWR wagon books.

 

Any other suggestions for common types? I don’t want ballast wagons – I feel these would only be seen in groups and on LNWR lines. My excuse for all these LNWR wagons (remembering that 1903-ish is well pre-pooling) is that there will be a LNWR goods service (worked by a Bachmann coal tank…) exercising running powers over my Midland line – which means I’ll be needing a brake van; London Road Models do a D16 which would suit nicely. I’ll have to get my whitemetal soldering skills up to speed first!

Edited June 7, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Compound2632]

Has Ratio never made an LNWR van kit? Strange they have a range from Standard opens to coal wagons and more obscure such as D52, and less useful D12, yet no vans as far as Im aware. Of what they had produced already, a D32 or D88 would have fit in perfectly.

 

Remember we're dealing with ancient history here - it's clear Ratio got cold feet about this range quite quickly - introduced ca. 1980 and repackaged into essentially the current kits, playing down their LNWR origins, by 1982. That said, they're still among the newest items of rolling stock in the Ratio range, which is mostly focused on lineside scenic items.

[Londontram]

 

 

LNW D2 WIP 1.JPG

 

 My first plan was to drill 0.5 mm holes and poke plastic rod through to represent the bolt heads but (a) the small bits I’ve got turned out to be a duff lot with no bite and (b) I came to doubt I could get the holes lined up well enough. I then thought of adding individual bolt heads made by dicing up 20 thou x 10 thou Microstrip but these proved (a) hard to cut square and (b) hard to position. The photo shows what I did instead – strips of 20 thou x 10 thou Microstrip lined up reasonably parallel. These are trimmed back to leave square(ish) bolt heads

I almost did a double take when I saw this as quite by chance I'd come to exactly the same conclusion after following the same route while in the process of building a Caledonian CCT and making the coach bolts for the end doors. The wife's I'll and has been in hospital so I've not done much modeling in the last few weeks but she's home now and on the mend so I might get a chance to finish it up, great minds eh. Steve

[jwealleans]

Did you look at using the Archer transfers? Admittedly round rather than square, but from normal viewing distance that isn't at all apparent.

[LNWR lives on]

Converting the D54 back to a D53, Made possible by the LNWR's frugality in waste not want not as they just added the top planks to make it a 5 plank than 4 plank wagon with the top plank able to swing hinged instead of messing about making new drop doors

 

I've yet to post my attempt at this conversion (only just recently found the photos again) but I found the worst bit was cleaning out the planking grooves so that they looked natural.

 

Loving the diagram two build, that looks really really good

 

Diagram 9 was a very common type. Dependant on your flexibility in measurement a medium cattle wagon was 16'2.5" on a 9' wheelbase but there was variation in the lengths on these wagons.

[billbedford]

Remember we're dealing with ancient history here - it's clear Ratio got cold feet about this range quite quickly - introduced ca. 1980 and repackaged into essentially the current kits, playing down their LNWR origins, by 1982. 

 

 

That's not what happened. Ratio folded in the great Thatcherite recession of the early 80s. They were taken over by Peco, mainly, I believe, because they did much of Peco's injection moulding, but the taken over meant that development work on new kits was stopped. The repackaging was also done by Peco to bring the ranges in to line with Peco's ideas of mass market appeal.

[Compound2632]

I almost did a double take when I saw this as quite by chance I'd come to exactly the same conclusion after following the same route while in the process of building a Caledonian CCT and making the coach bolts for the end doors. The wife's I'll and has been in hospital so I've not done much modeling in the last few weeks but she's home now and on the mend so I might get a chance to finish it up, great minds eh. Steve

 

Steve, your Caley loco thread has been quite an inspiration - glad to hear things are settling down for you. I'll look forward to seeing this CCT!

 

Did you look at using the Archer transfers? Admittedly round rather than square, but from normal viewing distance that isn't at all apparent.

 

I've seen the success many have had with these but this has been an exercise in using what I have to hand (apart from the rash purchase of new Ratio LNWR kits) - vintage modelling, if you like, using materials and techniques that I had available in my late teens!

 

Converting the D54 back to a D53, Made possible by the LNWR's frugality in waste not want not as they just added the top planks to make it a 5 plank than 4 plank wagon with the top plank able to swing hinged instead of messing about making new drop doors

 

I've yet to post my attempt at this conversion (only just recently found the photos again) but I found the worst bit was cleaning out the planking grooves so that they looked natural.

 

Loving the diagram two build, that looks really really good

 

Diagram 9 was a very common type. Dependant on your flexibility in measurement a medium cattle wagon was 16'2.5" on a 9' wheelbase but there was variation in the lengths on these wagons.

 

Looking forward to seeing this, too. If the planking looks a bit rough, well that's just wear-and-tear in traffic. Unfortunately as these are coal wagon diagrams so one can't hide one's blunders under a sheet.

 

That's not what happened. Ratio folded in the great Thatcherite recession of the early 80s. They were taken over by Peco, mainly, I believe, because they did much of Peco's injection moulding, but the taken over meant that development work on new kits was stopped. The repackaging was also done by Peco to bring the ranges in to line with Peco's ideas of mass market appeal.

 

Bill, thanks - all is now clear! I hope you don't feel my variations on the Ratio theme are undermining your resin kit range - I see you do D1, D2, D3 and D4. Anyway I've advertised your D32 here! I see that you have the D21 medium cattle wagon (subject of the Ratio kit that never was) and the D33 covered goods wagon listed as "in preparation" with 22 and 25 pre-orders respectively - when we spoke at ExpoEM in May, I think you said 20+ was the number you needed to proceed. Are you willing to say when they might be ready? Should I be adding them to my Christmas list?

 

Thanks all,

 

Stephen

Edited August 19, 2016 by Compound2632

[Penlan]

...... I see that you have the D21 medium cattle wagon (subject of the Ratio kit that never was)..... 

... and was the subject of a D&S kit.

I have 10 running on Penlan !!! 

[LNWR lives on]

The release notice for the LNWR wagons:

• Ref 751 One plank and ballast dropsides wagons
• Ref 752 Two Plank and four plank wagons
• Ref 753 Loco Coal and traffic coal

was in the Ratio advert in the December 1980 Railway Modeller all costing £4

 

Under frames only were also made available at 62pence

[kevinlms]

I used to have a barbie pink carriage in my 009 collection, part of the FR 'Jazz train' of the Colonel Stephens era. Strangely it doesn't look wrong either. 

 

ebay.jpg

Perhaps because the modern? use of a pink primer? So its somewhat familiar.

[Compound2632]

There will now be a short pause in the output of Earlestown-on-Loddon while the workforce take another holiday - appropriately enough, our local railway interest is ex-LNWR though Midland lines are not so far away.

 

[Compound2632]

If anyone is looking for Essery's "Midland Wagons" and happens to be in the Yorkshire Dales/Lake District, there were two sets in second-hand bookshops in Sedbergh a fortnight ago - one in the Information Centre/Second-Hand bookshop and one in Westward Books. Don't all rush - it's a very small town...

 

Curiously enough, both sets had gone when I looked this morning before we set out back south again...

[sharris]

I hope it's not bad form in this thread to include pre-grouping wagons in LMS livery, so here are a few variations on a Midland D299.

 

 

The first is from the Slater's 4mm kit, built something like 20 years ago in a previous railway modelling spell. Built with single sided brakes (which comes in handy later) from the Slater's kit. I removed the moulded buffers on this one and replaced them with Kean Maygib turned MR buffers. Underneath isn't totally Slater's as I pared back the W frames to leave just springs and axle boxes and used MJT compensated W-irons instead. This meant replacing the floor from the kit with a piece of 40 thou plasticard scribed with planking. On the rocking end I separated the axle boxes from the springs with an L shaped cut - downwards a little on the face on face of the springs into the axle box and then horizontally to the back, the idea being that if rocking the visible gap between axle box and springs is less noticeable. The insides of Slater's wagons are quite plain, so I added bolt detail to match the doors and end stanchions. I think this was probably my first Slater's kit.

 

 

The second variant is not actually a D299, but a D344 manure wagon. My area of interest is principally agricultural so it seemed appropriate. The D344 is essentially the same as a D299, but with no side doors. This wagon was my first attempt at scratch building. The sides, ends and floor were from plasticard that I scribed with plank detail while the solebars and head stocks were 4mm x 1mm strip (looking back on it now, 1.5mm would have been better for the head stocks. End stanchions, bolt plates, etc were a mix of strips, and bolt heads were made from cutting up 20 thou x 10 thou strip into tiny squares. Unfortunately the solvent I was using then was quite aggessive and they've lost a bit of definition, looking more like oversized rivets. As with the Slater's kit, I used MJT W-irons along with MJT springs and axle boxes. Again, buffers were Kean Maygib turned buffers. The W-iron fret contains various plate strips to detail the solebars. The D344 has single sided brakes, conveniently, so I used the spare lever and brakes from the Slater's D299 kit.

 

 

The third variant is built around the Slater's D299 kit - I must have started building it years ago and left it in the back of a drawer half finished for ages, so decided to get on and finish it now. This is a D299 but from lot 919. The most obvious difference being the extra bolt plates in the centre of each side panel. Unlike the others I had decided to build this one without compensation. Time had taken its toll when I got this one out as the brake Vs had become brittle and snapped. Fortunately I found an Ambis etch of Vs and things to replace the broken ones. Lot 919 had a long brake handle unlike the earlier ones - these (this lot had both-side brakes) came from a Bill Bedford etch, as did the brake safety loops. Unlike the other kits I didn't use Kean Maygib buffers, but drilled out the moulded buffers to take sprung heads (possibly MJT or Alan Gibson, I've lost the card tag from the packet).

The additional bolt plates are from 30x10 thou strip, and again bolt heads are from chopping up 20x10 thou strip into tiny squares. A photo (plate 99) in Essery's MR wagons book shows the strips are mirrored on the insides of the wagon. There are a couple of things not quite right using the Slater's kit - lot 919 had heavier duty journals than in the kit, and the number plate is of the earlier design in the kit, while lot 919 were built after the more rounded plate had come in. For the moment I'll live with those slight inaccuracies. It's just noticeable that the number plate doesn't match the side of the wagon - I need to find some tiny numbers!