Baseboard construction to withstand the heat of a Spanish garage

[Gwiwer]

Not in Spain here but in Australia where it gets mighty hot outdoors.  The highest recorded air temperature in the layout area (which for those unfamiliar with my main project is semi-enclosed but outdoors) is 53C with a relative humidity of just 3%.  That is very hot and tinder-dry.  The rails have been measured at 57C several times as some sections are in full sun for some hours at certain times of the year.

 

I used 9mm particle board on a 2x1 pine frame.  Ten years later it remains in tact.  But what I learned early on was that it also dries right out in those conditions and the wood therefore shrinks.  If it's glued it stretches the glue; if it's not there is less stress at the joints.  Either way the joints, fitted tight against each other at construction, have subsequently opened up to be gaps of 1 - 2mm.  That has had an effect upon scenery and trackwork above the woodwork as well.  

 

If I were starting over with benefit of hindsight and experience I would probably still use particle board because it's easy to work with and doesn't splinter like ply can.  I would use 2x2 for the perimeter frames not 2x1 but none of that will stop the drying.  So what I might do given that hindsight would be to season the wood by leaving it in the intended room for a few hot weeks (longer if possible) before use and then cutting it.  If it has already dried and shrunk some then any further shrinkage and any later dramas above the wood will be minimised.

[PatB]

Thanks for that. I didn't know that the ply sandwich beams were made from ply as thin as 3mm... I had assumed maybe 6mm. Using 3mm would certainly save weight over solid 18mm beams. I'd also assumed that the beam construction would require at least as much internal bracing as a conventionally-framed layout. Ironically, weight-saving is not an issue as once the layout is where it's intended to be, it's purely a vanity project that won't leave home.

I think warping in the extremes of heat are much more of an issue for me than lightness! Still tempted to make use of Travis Perkins' panel cutter and get an 8x4 sheet ripped, but knowing me I may just go for the "old" technology of thick ply sides and internal bracing at 18" perhaps with diagonal stiffeners.

I certainly have ruled out softwood forming any part of the construction, though. Thanks again.

There are many ways to skin this particular cat. Wall thickness and internal bracing of composite beams are something of a moveable feast. However, as an illustration of what might be adequate for a model railway baseboard, I just looked at my set of plans for the Minimax light aircraft. The main wing spar, from which the entire laden weight of the plane is suspended whilst in flight, is a composite C-section about 15mm deep and consisting of a 1.5 mm ply web with upper and lower flanges of 18mm square pine and some vertical stiffeners of slightly smaller section set at roughly 400mm intervals. Most railway modellers would regard such a beam as excessively flimsy for a baseboard frame and yet hundreds of Minimaxes have flown safely for many many hours reliant on its strength and stiffness.

 

Having said all that, getting the timber supplier to rip up a sheet of 18mm for you sounds like it will do the job and be a whole lot simpler .

 

Edit: Sorry, that wing spar depth is 150 mm. 15 is a bit small, even for a decent sized model.

[skipepsi]

From what has been said by you and others Pete why not get your sheets ripped in the UK, take them out to Spain. Leave them in the garage for a month then assemble the baseboard in your own time, easier to transport, wood has adjusted before you cut it to length?

[Guest]

From what has been said by you and others Pete why not get your sheets ripped in the UK, take them out to Spain...

 

That would make the most sense, but I don't go full-time to Spain 'til 2019(ish). What on earth am I supposed to do in the meantime? I might have to start watching Eastenders and talk to my wife!

In all seriousness, I am faced with the problem of constructing a layout in Blighty with mild summers, cool-cold winters and then expecting it to remain straight and level in all dimensions once transported to somewhere with mild winters and hot-very hot summers. I suppose I have enough time to build the whole damn thing here to the best of my ability and if it warps in Spain, just build it again...

Timber supply is of variable quality over there, so I must admit I do like the idea of taking various timber and ply lengths and sheets with me in as I'll be making several trips in the Tranny van.

[Stubby47]

Can you make the top removable ? That way, if the frame does warp, you can re-frame it without losing the track & scenery. 

[Guest]

Can you make the top removable ? That way, if the frame does warp, you can re-frame it without losing the track & scenery. 

 

Possible. Bearing in mind shrinkage mentioned by Gwiwer (although I'm not sure that will be so much of a problem with decent ply), I am keen not to glue the ply top to the frame. Should it all go pear (or banana) shaped, something should be salvageable.

 

As fascinated as I am with the beam construction, I have for simplicity (and perhaps laziness) decided to cheat and get the local Travis Perkins to rip a 2400 x 1200mm sheet of 18mm ply into various widths... 100mm, 150mm etc for the framework. I'll get them to rip a sheet of 9mm ply into 2 x 450mm widths for the top as well as I just no longer trust my DIY table saw. Having spoken to them this morning, they've waived their usual "setup + £1 per cut" fee saving me probably the best part of 20 quid. Benefits of being an account customer I guess. They've had squillions of pounds off of me in the past during the course of the house renovation!

 

With other more mundane jobs to do around the house, I'll just lay it all out on the top floor and look at it for a while before sizing the strips and constructing the framework.

 

Edit: The fiddle yard will sit approx. 50mm higher than the scenic section, hence the use of 150mm strips for that board. 18mm ply is likely to make the whole structure a bit on the weighty side, but the whole thing's just meant to be just "transportable" rather than truly "portable". I really am much more swayed by solidity rather than lightness, so as long as each 1950 x 450mm board is manageable with two people, I'm happy.

[Kelly]

Perhaps another option might be a couple of small layouts and leave building a bigger one until you are settled in Spain so you can build and experiment without worrying about transport of it from the UK? Could be good for trialing things you wouldn't normally consider too, and cheaper too, which is surely a good thing with moving headaches on the horizon (with all the will in the world any house move is a headache to some extent).

[Guest]

Perhaps another option might be a couple of small layouts and leave building a bigger one until you are settled in Spain so you can build and experiment without worrying about transport of it from the UK? Could be good for trialing things you wouldn't normally consider too, and cheaper too, which is surely a good thing with moving headaches on the horizon (with all the will in the world any house move is a headache to some extent).

 

This is a little one, Kelly! N gauge single track oval 6'6" x 3'. Essentially a rebuild of a layout that already exists and is currently stored. Basically a DC test track but I'm planning to push myself scenically with a Costa Brava beach scene. If it turns out ok (and I have up to 3 years to build it) I'd still like it to make the journey and perhaps live alongside something a wee bit bigger to be built once in Spain.

[Kelly]

This is a little one, Kelly! N gauge single track oval 6'6" x 3'. Essentially a rebuild of a layout that already exists and is currently stored. Basically a DC test track but I'm planning to push myself scenically with a Costa Brava beach scene. If it turns out ok (and I have up to 3 years to build it) I'd still like it to make the journey and perhaps live alongside something a wee bit bigger to be built once in Spain.

Ah. Though my thinking of small was less than half that size lol. I'm currently working on doing a 4'8.5"x1'-1'6" (s4 society standard gauge workshop challenge) layout as a trial and test track type thing

[Nearholmer]

I tend to "bore for England" with this idea, but building a double-skinned, shallow-box-like, baseboard does seem to result in a structure that will withstand most things.

 

Top and bottom skins 6mm ply, separation to taste, but perhaps 6mm plywood again for this circumstance. Cut apertures in the lower skin, choosing locations carefully, to allow access for wiring etc.

 

The structure that results equates to a flush-door, or, maybe more relevant here, a Spanish guitar!

 

You could put a fret-board and strings on the lower face, and get two hobbies for the price of one.

 

Maybe you could get a local guitar-maker to do your baseboards for you; they must know how to cater for climatic variation, and a guitar is quite a heavily-loaded structure, once strung. SWMBO and I had a cracking holiday about ten years ago, touring the south of Spain by train, bus, and (only option to get up into the mountains) hire-car, and we saw a couple of guitar workshops en-route........ http://www.zavaletas-guitarras.com/guitar-makers-biographies/

 

Kevin

[Vecchio]

Having lived 11 years in Italy I do not see any problem in the summer. The humidity will not be that high that things warp. I would pay more attention at cold winters - what has to be avoided is condensation. So thermal insulation of the place and probably even a small electric radiator set on a low temperature should help.

 

Question - why are you building the baseboards here in the UK? These Mediterranean countries have all the lovely poplar ply in the DIY shops which weighs half of ours. I loved working with that stuff when I was living in Italy.

 

Vecchio

[Guest]

You could put a fret-board and strings on the lower face, and get two hobbies for the price of one.

 

Novel, I'll grant you that! Wouldn't the stock fall off when you picked it up to play a tune?

 

Having lived 11 years in Italy I do not see any problem in the summer. The humidity will not be that high that things warp. I would pay more attention at cold winters - what has to be avoided is condensation. So thermal insulation of the place and probably even a small electric radiator set on a low temperature should help.

 

Question - why are you building the baseboards here in the UK? These Mediterranean countries have all the lovely poplar ply in the DIY shops which weighs half of ours. I loved working with that stuff when I was living in Italy.

 

The garage does need work. It's of rendered block construction, probably without a damp-proof course (typical) and certainly without any form of insulation. Planning to insulate the inside, make sure there's ventilation and certainly install some form of over-winter heating.

 

The only reason that I'm planning to build the boards in England is that the property we're purchasing in Spain needs work and, when finished, will only be used as a holiday home until approx. 2019 when we plan to move full-time. We're about to downsize in England, so I need a small(ish) personal project in the meantime. Shipping it over in the van won't be an issue.

Good to know about the poplar ply - thanks for the info!

[Nearholmer]

Truth is stranger than fiction!

 

Look what I just found http://www.theguitarcolumn.com/2009/09/why-didnt-i-think-of-that-3-masayoshi.html

 

Doesn't look quite right for flamenco, though.

 

K

[Spanishdriver]

Hi Pete,

 

Just thought I would throw in my few pence worth here seeing as I have just come across this thread and recently rekindled my interest in model layout's.

I am just about to purchase the timber for the base board construction so this thread has interested me somewhat.

I live near Alcoy which is just up the road from you and at a height of 500 metres. My layout room is on the lower floor of the house with two external walls and the window is north facing. It is not insulated at all and this results in a nice cool temperature during the summer. Given that it is north facing, I can say that I have never had issues with damp (despite there being no damp proof coarse).

Timber is more expensive here than in the UK so purchasing before you move here is a good idea. I will be buying 6mm ply with 2X2 bracing for the edge of the base board and leg support. The rear will be secured to the walls. I shall be utilising about 24 sets of points so will not be bracing the underside of the base board initially until I have my track roughly laid out so i can determine exactly where the point, signal and DCC wires will go.

I have re-wired my house as the Spanish wiring leaves a lot to be desired so a point worth bearing in mind if you will be using a few appliances for your layout.

 

Regards

Gary 

[Guest]

I live near Alcoy which is just up the road from you and at a height of 500 metres. My layout room is on the lower floor of the house with two external walls and the window is north facing. It is not insulated at all and this results in a nice cool temperature during the summer.

 

Thanks Gary - that's really useful.

My eventual layout room is the garage, with three external walls and two windows facing south-west, which may prove to be an issue. It's also at less than 100m, so quite a bit lower than you. I'm used to the total lack of insulation and damp-proof in this kind of build, but time will tell how suitable the garage will be. There's the usual flaky paint in patches up to about 24" above floor level, but I've seen much, much worse, so it doesn't overly worry me. At around 50 sq m, the garage should make the perfect man-cave. The chance of me bagging any space in the main part of the house is <1%!

I was last there in July and the garage was comfortable, certainly not hot. Should the sale go through (and I've no reason to assume it won't - the bank are just slow due to the summer break), it will be interesting to see the climate difference in winter.

Thanks again, and good luck with the layout.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

I have re-wired my house as the Spanish wiring leaves a lot to be desired so a point worth bearing in mind if you will be using a few appliances for your layout.

 

 

Seconded.

Currently in week 2 of the house rewire, what the locals consider adequate scared me to death when we moved in, we're even having new incomers from the main panel.

The worst bit is the amount of dust, cement rendering inside and out makes even a simple job very messy.

 

Mike.

[Guest]

I have re-wired my house as the Spanish wiring leaves a lot to be desired...

 

Currently in week 2 of the house rewire, what the locals consider adequate scared me to death when we moved in...

 

Food for thought, and on the next visit, planning to get a sparkie in Callosa to give things the once-over. He speaks a little English and I speak a little Spanish, so between us, we should be able to determine whether the wiring's ****ed. As it's a repo, the last time I was there, obviously the power's off...

 

 

A couple of RMWebbers know the story behind this house, but job number #467 on the "to-do" list is to change the name. Stop sniggering at the back...

 

[Stubby47]

Why change it ?

[Spanishdriver]

I like the name too but it might be worth considering a change. It would make a talking point for visitors though!

 

If the picture of the consumer units are from your Spanish house then it looks like it may be well catered for but you will need to check what is behind it - I had speaker wire to sockets and sockets with no earths when there was an earth wire behind the socket leading to nowhere.

I went shopping this morning and filled the car up with timber. Just as an update, they did not supply plywood in 6mm thickness, just 3mm and 5mm. I erred on the side of caution and bought 10mm. As was stated earlier in this thread, the poplar wood makes for a light but strong ply and I am reasonably happy with it.

Given our 35+ temps at the moment, I shall be spending the afternoon sorting out my 'man cave' in the cool with drill and glue. The olive trees can wait until tomorrow morning.

 

Gary

[Vecchio]

Happy building!

keep us updated!

Vecchio

[Spanishdriver]

Certainly will Vecchio, but rather than hijack this thread, I will start a new one with some pictures once I get into the swing of things.

I have fixed the first batons to the walls and then stood there pondering for half an hour with a beer (as the bar was open) having a re-think about which side to place the station and which side to place the goods yard due to the recent installation of a water heater on the wall.

Nothing is ever simple.

I will start another thread shortly once I have taken some pics so you can see my 'man cave' and the obstructions in the way. I am using oo gauge and basing the project loosely on Ipswich Station (East Anglia) around the mid 80's and prior to electrification.

 

Just as an aside, the current temp in the shade is 40 deg C and I have only used the drill. The glue will make it's appearance (hopefully) tomorrow afternoon. I have now decided on which side to place the station. Surprising what a couple of beers can do!!

 

Cheers

[Vecchio]

Well here are 16 degrees and showers - would prefer a nice cerveza de barril (grande par favour) at 40deg C...

enjoy

[petertg]

I don't want to be a killjoy, but have you considered that by 2019 you may not be able to enjoy the status of Community Resident, but have more paperwork to get through to obtain a residence permit.

Apart from that, my layout (240 x 120 mm) is suspended from the garage ceiling and we can get 0ºC in winter and close on 40ºC in summer. We are about three miles as the crow flies from the sea and virtually at sea level, so we can also get high humidity levels..The baseboard is one slab of 10 mm thick plywood and does not appear to have warped, but it has sagged slightly in the middle, due to a wrongly designed aluminium subframe. I used hollow rectangular stringers and, instead of putting the long side vertical, I had it put flat and two angle irons added later were not enough to stop the sag. Half of the layout is on a raised level on 3 mm plywood and this does not seem to have warped. For the record, my garage is part of the house, with exposed North and East walls, the door faces West and gets most of the heat in the afternoon and the South wall is interior. The ceiling has a bedroom above.