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Class A3 4-6-2 in O Gauge from Hatton's


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11 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

I thought they just came out in one go and have been there ever since but I might be wrong.

They did. There hasn’t been a second batch yet so no improvements or corrections have been made yet. 

Edited by Hilux5972
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My understanding was that with any new product there are bound to be teething problems that you sort out, as best you can, during the production run. I believe that there were some issues with seams along the top face of the body that were a result of production issues which were resolved? There was also some problems with the drive gears again have/were these resolved during the original production run? Would be nice to hear from those who have had no problems and are are happy with them.

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Sprint said:

My understanding was that with any new product there are bound to be teething problems that you sort out, as best you can, during the production run. 

My understanding from following this thread is that these arrived and then were found to have the faults you are asking about, by which time it was too late to amend anything.

 

It's put me off but you could call Hattons direct and get them to actually check one and also confirm that in the event you aren't happy, they will have it back and refund postage, and then you reduce the risk?

Edited by Hal Nail
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Thanks for the reply and the point you make about contacting Hatton's directly makes sense, but it would also be good to hear from those who have actually purchase one of the models and who can give some 1st hand experience.

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I can only report second-hand but he bought four, all new, and all have been returned and refunded.  all within the last 12 months AFAIK.
 

Various issues, I don’t recall the details.  I’ll ask when I see him.

 

 

Edited by Simond
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That is clearly very bad to have gone through 4 and ultimately had to take a refund.

 

Would be interesting to know specifically what the problems were that he had and if/they were the same each time or multiple issues? You would have expected/hoped that within 4 units that they would have been able to have resolved any issues/problems? 

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7 hours ago, Sprint said:

that you sort out, as best you can, during the production run


I think that, as has been discussed earlier in the thread, the production run for typical Chinese small volume production was completed and shipped in one go, probably a single container.  There would be no iteration, modification or improvement during production.  
 

I may be wrong but I expect that the Hatton’s models would be built in that way, in which case, the only ones to have been delivered prior to that would be prototypes for approval.

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9 hours ago, Sprint said:

My understanding was that with any new product there are bound to be teething problems that you sort out, as best you can, during the production run.

 

That may be the case with some products, but what the various manufacturers have shown us about model train production any changes mid-production-run are very unlikely.  Prior to assembly all the parts are made and prepared, which combined with the small number of models (in O you are probably looking at a couple of thousand) there really isn't any opportunity to change things once production starts.

 

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It’s interesting to estimate the size of the UK 0 gauge market.  When I was a G0G member, I believe there were some 6000 or so.  I’d hazard a guess that’s somewhere between half and three quarters of the overall number, so say ten thousand for round numbers.

 

How are these modellers distributed over the various eras and regions?

 

Pre grouping, small lines, etc

grouping, big 4 

steam era BR

Modern Image

 

I'm guessing the GW is 20% of the total, maybe 10% each for the other 3, gets us to 50%, and 15% each for pre-grouping, Steam era BR and Modern Image gets us to 95%. The remaining 5% might be broad gauge, narrow gauge, and non UK.  My guessing will certainly be wrong but probably not massively so.

 

so how many modellers might buy an A3 or A4?  A few of the MI, some (quarter, half?) of the Steam era BR and some(quarter, half?) of the LNER modellers, a few collectors and a few who “just want one”.   I reckon that makes something like 15-30% of the total, so maybe 1500 - 3000 total?  What do you think?

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1 hour ago, Simond said:

so how many modellers might buy an A3 or A4?

so maybe 1500 - 3000 total?  What do you think?

Well, there are 18 variations of A3s listed on Hattons and all of them have more than 10 in stock. A4s only slightly better. So obviously not that many people wanted one...!

 

The mogul and prairie ended heavily discounted as well.

 

All of these have had some criticism so it might be that but I suspect also the higher price takes them into a different bracket: a £200 loco is cheap enough a lot will have bought on something of a whim (hence the steady supply of "abandoned project" locos on eBay!) whereas a £500 one takes a lot more thinking about.

 

We'll have a better idea when the Dapol 45xx finally comes out whether a well made one sells better at that higher level.

 

PS - I'd have thought steam/diesel transition era greatest at present with blue diesel fast closing. No doubt as we are teleporting to an exhibition in 30 years, we can look forward to loads of multiple unit layouts :)

 

Edited by Hal Nail
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2 hours ago, Simond said:

I'm guessing the GW is 20% of the total, maybe 10% each for the other 3, gets us to 50%, and 15% each for pre-grouping, Steam era BR and Modern Image gets us to 95%. The remaining 5% might be broad gauge, narrow gauge, and non UK.  My guessing will certainly be wrong but probably not massively so.

 

To me it would seem more likely that the steam era is totally dominated by GWR (because that is what has been made RTR), with the other 3 being much smaller due to the lack of RTR until the last couple of years.

 

I also think the diesel era would be much bigger - the variety of diesels that are/have been available indicates it is a much bigger than 15% market share.

 

2 hours ago, Simond said:

so how many modellers might buy an A3 or A4?  A few of the MI, some (quarter, half?) of the Steam era BR and some(quarter, half?) of the LNER modellers, a few collectors and a few who “just want one”.   I reckon that makes something like 15-30% of the total, so maybe 1500 - 3000 total?  What do you think?

 

I would just wonder if it would be that high.

 

Unless you are fortunate to have a very big space, or a garden layout, there really wouldn't seem to be much of a demand for an A3/A4 unless you are a collector - it isn't a branchline engine and the price is high enough that it isn't an impulse purchase because you like the look of it.

 

Given the heavy dominance of GWR models my impression is perhaps a King or Castle would have been a better choice, because while not branchline engines either there would be more willingness for a rule 1 type exception on a GWR / WR layout - but even with those I would hesitate to okay the costs of bringing those to market.

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7 hours ago, mdvle said:

Perhaps a King or Castle would have been a better choice

T'was ever thus!

 

Reminds me of the scene in Battle of Britain when Goering asks if there is anything his pilots want?

"Spitfuers!"

 

 

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I have a A3 and A4

 

The A4 "Sir Nigel Gresley" is a beautiful model, but like all Heljan's it's a toss up what you get, the first one had super glue finger prints on it so was returned, the second, one or two bits floating about the box but was clean.

What I've found out is that some can't pull, Mine can't, six Dapol MK1's and she can't start them even with a push can't build up enough momentum to keep them going.

 

At the time "Sir Nige" sold out and I contacted Hatton's, to there credit offered a full refund but I wanted the model so kept it, went through it, cleaned, oiled and checked everything was smooth which it is and can only find that it's a weak motor. With research on this thread and forums even google found that the A4's had lack of testing to identify issues. Hornby Magazine tested one and reported the same thing.

 

The A3 "Flying Scotsman" different breed, nothing loose in the box and can pull, tested on a very old Gaugemaster series D and takes off very fast unlike "Gres", The A3's got more testing time and to me seem better over the A4's.

 

So, back to the A4, Contacted Hatton's again this time about spare parts and can I buy a new motor, simple answer NO! they don't carry much in spare parts definitely no motors but again offered a full refund o the model, may I point out at this time it's 9 months later.

A few weeks back Rails had on eBay A3 "The White Knight" damaged wheels hanging off smoke deflector off and other issues, I managed to buy it for £290 purely for parts, and hoping a strong motor for "Gres", on arrival it looked worse than it actually was and inside of a few hours back up and running well,

still got cosmetic issues though,

 

Now after all that Hatton's now has them back in stock, I'm assuming it's a second run because Mallard and Bittern is now available which I don't think was on the first batch, If they are re-badged as Heljan are parts going to be available (silly me, it's Heljan) I myself would like to know if anyone has the latest A4 and what's it like.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I also have an A3 and an A4.

 

The A3 (The White Knight) arrived with a few bits in the box. All were able to be put back on. The smoke deflectors come off if even look at them. Put back on several times. Eventually drilled holes ato put the smoke deflector stays into and now seems to stay on. I have converted the A3 to battery/Wifi control. The pulling power is directly related to voltage. If the voltage is 18V she will pull 4-5 Mk1 no problem. If voltage is down to 12V she can barely pull herself along. Biggest problem is the rear pony keeps derailing, tried the remove spring/cut spring, check back to back, etc. Nothing works so I have removed the pony.

 

I also have the Sir Nigel Gresley A4, the first one arrived with bits in the box. worked fine with no load for the first couple of times and then disaster, one of the rods came of and jammed the mechanism which cause the drive wheel to come-off. I tried a number of fixes and eventually gave up and sent it back for a replacement.

 

Also managed to fry the speaker circuit twice on the loksound decoder. Turns out the tie-bar can short the connector and shorts the speaker channel. You need to cover the connector with shinkwrap. 

 

Second one arrived again with bits in the box. Almost the exact same bits as the first one. Bit of glue later and this one has been running fine, without sound. This loco will also be converted to battery.

 

Cheers

Brian

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As a new post I take it that your have only just recently bought your A3 and A4's, so it is disappointing to see that there are still quality issues with them straight from the box?

 

What bits were found in the boxes that had to be re-attached? The smoke deflectors really seems to be a main problem for falling off that one would have thought would be much better attached.

 

Apart from the bit that that fallen off and had to be re-attached what is your impression of the overall build quality and attention to detail? 

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23 hours ago, Sprint said:

As a new post I take it that your have only just recently bought your A3 and A4's, so it is disappointing to see that there are still quality issues with them straight from the box?

 

What bits were found in the boxes that had to be re-attached? The smoke deflectors really seems to be a main problem for falling off that one would have thought would be much better attached.

 

Apart from the bit that that fallen off and had to be re-attached what is your impression of the overall build quality and attention to detail? 

No the A3 was preordered and was part of the first shipment. The A4 I bought in November 2020 when they had a sale. 

 

The bits that fell off were the seats, windows, front tread area (A4), and of course the smoke deflectors (A3).

 

They look good, but I think more should have gone into the design of the model as the operation of the loco is not good. I just wonder when these two will break.

 

Brian

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have finally got my garden railway to a phase where I can run trains, of a decent length. So a bit of testing of the A3 was in order. The track consists of a return loop in 2.0m radius and 1.8m radius (6ft) and a 5m straight with a 1 in 40 slope. Good test bed for the A3.

 

Now my A3 is battery powered and to start with in has 12 AAA 900mAh batteries giving 10-18Volts. Once charged the voltage would quickly drop back to 15-16 Volts.

 

So to start with with the voltage at around 15-16 volts it would pull 3 Mk1 up the slope and around the curves. When the voltage was back to 11v it would pull only 1 Mk1. . If overloaded it would stall and you could hear gears spinning and not meshing. I was not happy!!

 

So pulled the body off and ran it like that. The characteristics changed, no longer would it stall and have gear mesh issues. It would actually spin the wheels. Never done that before. I could, with a full battery 16V, pull 4 Mk1 up the hill and around the curves.

 

So put the body back on and made sure it was really well seated. Now performed the same as with the body off. between 4 and 1 Mk1 dependant on the voltage. Still not happy.

 

So  back to the drawing board. Installed 3 x 18650 Li-Ion batteries and a voltage ramp up board. Input voltage is between 9 and 12ish and output voltage is 17.5. After going through my WifiTrax board it becomes 18.5V DCC. I also noticed that when struggling for grip a light touch above the firebox would improve the pulling power. 

IMG_3706.JPG.d90c14bbf6c0fe1472691701e09032cc.JPG

 

IMG_3708.JPG.dd0bf5019656d5284e6f5df144b8007e.JPG

 

IMG_3709.JPG.32be19154e8b23073f2210346e3ef788.JPG

So back to the garden. Started with 5 Dapol Mk1 with a standing start up the grade. No problem. Only have enough track length to put 7 Mk1s on the slope. Standing start with 6 Dapol and 1 Heljan Mk1s. Round the curves not a problem. Standing start with the train on the curves, no problem. Much improved and good enough for my purposes. 

 

So it likes at least 16V and performs really well at 18V DCC. Worth considering a battery conversion even on a DCC layout.

 

The garden railway will have one 2m curve that will be going up a 1 in 40 grade. That will be a big test, will be building that bit of the garden in a couple of weeks (weather and heat dependant). So future test results to come.

 

While I was at it I had another go at the trailing arm, to see if I could eliminate the derailing on the double slips. I had already shortened the spring. So added travel limiters to the axle. Better but still didn't like the double slips. So then added 5g of lead to the trailing arm. Now will go through double slips no problem.

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So the garden railway has the spur into the garage built, it is a 1in 50 slope and incorporates a 2m radius 90 degree curve at the start of the climb. The A3 did it effortlessly pulling 6 Dapol Mk1 coaches. 
 


cheers Brian

Edited by M3ti
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I had the gear mesh problem as mentioned above with it going away when the body was removed so I filed down the two metal pips underneath at the firebox end of the metal weight that the motor sits on. 
I put the body back on and the problem had gone. 
 

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  • 2 weeks later...

So after a few days of successful running: disaster!!!

39C97158-F0ED-4C63-8344-EB1E6B9444DB.jpeg.7ac96feeb49aec4d636b10d6734d2a85.jpeg

 

The centre crank pin unscrewed and the coupling rod and connecting rod fell off. But the real problem was the extension rod and small crank parted company. This is a press fit brass pin that has a small flange on the inside. 
 

1B9D2563-47E9-4EF3-8CAE-4007D4E6C147.jpeg.11ad5a3a024bde224fa778f46af0ff12.jpeg

 

After much gnashing of teeth, I looked at how to fix the problem. The crank pin is easy use loctite to hold the pins in. I loctited all the crank pins.
 

The extension rod and small crank pin, however are a much bigger problem. I found if I place the model with that rod on the bottom and forced the crank back on the rod pin, it would come off again with any movement. In the end I put the crank back on the pin and then used a small screwdriver to force the flange over a bit more. This worked and the crank now stays on the pin. Did the same to the extension rod pin on the other side. 
 

Finally the crank is only held in place by pressure of the crank pin against the brass bearing. I am going to use some loctite 638 retaining compound to secure the crank and set the right angle. LOCTITE® 638 is designed for the bonding of cylindrical fitting parts. 
 

A bit of time on the rolling road and The White Knight rides again.

Edited by M3ti
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  • 3 months later...

I'd love one of these, I think they look great! Due to space I can only model in 4mm ATM but judging by some people's experiences keeping one as a static model might be a good move. Not sure I like that price for a static model though, I'll keep my eye out for a dead one on a popular online auction website.   

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