'scrap' at preserved railways

[PhilH]

Just because the engine manufacturer no longer makes the engine or its components, it doesn't have to mean that all is lost once all the stocks of available spares have been exhausted. As long as engineering drawings exist, and there's the finance and expertise available, anything can be re-made. Almost all of the Sulzer engines used in british locomotives were made in britain by Vickers Armstrong, under licence from Sulzer. Whether the skills and expertise have died out since is another question. On the flip side of the coin, manufacturing methods and technology have improved vastly since then, and many components which took large amounts of time and skill to machine, can now be mass produced on CNC machine tools, once they have been drawn up on computer. Obviously castings and drop forgeings are gonna cost a packet no matter what type of loco they are for, be it steam or diesel.

 

And thereby hangs a tale - it could be only the enthusiast who cares if a diesel loco has the correct JLTRT6FU2 engine or whatever in it. Would it be fair to say that Mr and Mrs Joe Public couldn't care less if it has an off the shelf Cat engine in it as long as it looks and sounds like a diesel. SO - is a 'proper' diesel loco only really of interest to the diesel enthusiast?

['CHARD]

"JLTRT6FU2" :icon_clap: For no more profound reason than the designation made me LOL!

 

It's another good point though; function often defines form in terms of a steam loco, whereas in diesel loco terms it's far less obvious when you get to sub-assembly and systems level. Beneath the skin of a steam loco there's far less opportunity to simplify or swap systems whilst still getting the same output specification; with a diesel - and ignoring the power unit for a moment - you could certainly replace in-situ hard-wiring with looms and harnesses, solid state with electronics, and possibly electrical machines and cooler group subsystems with newer equivalents. Certainly only the service/ operating crew would be any the wiser.

[D605Eagle]

I had a quick look at the D8233 website, the standard of the work carried out looks first class, well done.J.P.

Thanks! we try our hardest! At the moment it has no cab or No2 nose on, they are been shotblasted next week.

 

Could anyone could afford to have a diesel loco built from scratch? Fuel oil will become a major consideration in time anyway and the enthusiast will be left high and dry.

I dont think the fuel side of the oil requirement will be an insumountable issue as diesel replacement is very easily made from vegatble oil. However lubricating oil will not be so easy. As it is buying 200 gallons of lube oil for a diesel engine makes a big dent in any preservation groups finances!

Jim

[D605Eagle]

"JLTRT6FU2" :icon_clap: For no more profound reason than the designation made me LOL!

 

It's another good point though; function often defines form in terms of a steam loco, whereas in diesel loco terms it's far less obvious when you get to sub-assembly and systems level. Beneath the skin of a steam loco there's far less opportunity to simplify or swap systems whilst still getting the same output specification; with a diesel - and ignoring the power unit for a moment - you could certainly replace in-situ hard-wiring with looms and harnesses, solid state with electronics, and possibly electrical machines and cooler group subsystems with newer equivalents. Certainly only the service/ operating crew would be any the wiser.

When the class 15 is finnished it will be a class 15/81/31/CIE A class hybrid! Most of its electrical machines have been lost/removed over the years

[RedgateModels]

When the class 15 is finnished it will be a class 15/81/31/CIE A class hybrid! Most of its electrical machines have been lost/removed over the years

 

as long as it sounds right

[coachmann]

as long as it sounds right

Fit a 12 inch to the foot sound chip. Failing that, a peice of carboard hitting a fan....

[Chris116]

Going back to what the visitors to preserved railways want/expect. I work on the Mid Hants and although we don't have a real diesel following we do use the DMU a lot. I have noticed that more people want to ride in it than used to be the case, with many of them saying that they used to travel to school in similar units. Some of the small children don't like the steam engines and can upset dad or granddad by wanting to ride behind the diesel when we have had a steam failure.

 

As a five year old I hated diesels with a passion but now fifty years later I enjoy my days as Conductor Guard on the DMU. Funny how time changes your views!

 

Chris

[coachmann]

Talking of DMUs, we thought it would make a pleasant change riding in one on the Llangollen one day last year. For me the throaty growl evoked memories of commuting into Manchester, and Mary enjoyed it too because she could see the scenery from the front. We did it both ways, but it was a one-off. We both prefer travelling in the silent comfort of a corridor compartment while listening to the steam loco working hard. That is real railway travel to us and is what brings us back to Carrog time after time for a ride into Llangollen.

 

Oddly enough we do not particularly like riding in a GWR Auto coach either. These vehicles are pretty austere and even though Auto trains look cute from the lineside, they must have been a grotty experience for many Western commuters.

 

LG

[Baby Deltic]

Anyone heard D182 yesterday would appreciate diesel preservation. HELLFIRE!!!! .......as the bashers would say......... or is it MyLordz?.......

[Jawfin]

Talking of DMUs, we thought it would make a pleasant change riding in one on the Llangollen one day last year. For me the throaty growl evoked memories of commuting into Manchester, and Mary enjoyed it too because she could see the scenery from the front. We did it both ways, but it was a one-off. We both prefer travelling in the silent comfort of a corridor compartment while listening to the steam loco working hard. That is real railway travel to us and is what brings us back to Carrog time after time for a ride into Llangollen.

The, "Joe Publics," in NI just don't care about diesels, DMUs or Locos. At the DCDR, some people refuse to get on and demand their money back when there's no operational steam. It's sad really, as an 80 class DEMU set (which was built in the 70s) is said to be going there.

They're iconic to an enthusiast, but I can already hear the mutterings of, "if I wanted to see one of these, I could've gone to Belfast Central."

I doubt many people today will be able to tell much differance between the 80s and the C4Ks in service with NIR.

[AMJ]

Yet some public don't even notice the difference between steam and diesel.  Some Industrial diesels look similar to steam with big chimney and have known the public to think it's a steamer.

[Sam Moss]

The Thomas copyright holders don't know the difference either. I was on the troublesome truck rake making them "run away" and one of the inspectors though the LMS 20t brake van was Toby the tram and even wrote in her report that it was Toby but was producing too much smoke out of its chimney (the stove)

[pheaton]

Its very very true that kettles with there "primitive" engineering will outlive diesels in the preservation world, after spending the last 8 years of my life on 45149 i can honestly say there are parts that have been extremely difficult to procure in order to restore 45149 back to operational condition, and indeed when 45149 is back in service (next 8-12 or so weeks) after a 25 years of sleep, efforts will switch to obtaining parts to keep the locomotive in service. And overhaul of spares. Without the co-operation of other groups 45149 would never be in the position its in!

 

Of all the parts needed to keep 149 in service for many years to come, some are very simple (like air compressor valves and gaskets) some are very complicated (AVRs and various relays) some of which modern equivilents exist but others do not exist or would require extensive and expensive modification to work effectively.

Thats before we come to the engine....a peak like any other locomotive has consumables, how long will we be able to obtain piston rings and bearings, and what if a head suffers a fracture? im sure classic diesel locomotives will keep running for a while yet, but steam locomotives although more costly will be able to keep running for much longer.....even if the only original part is the chimney

 

New build preserved diesel electric....sorry im a little skeptical.....walk around any diesel electric and the complexity despite the age is very very daunting!

Edited May 20, 2013 by pheaton

[MarkC]

I agree with much of what you've put, pheaton. However, the LMS 10000 bunch haven't been put off, & frankly much of their gear will be pretty basic - no modern electronics in the control systems for a start - all discrete components that will be easier to obtain & change for a while yet, unlike much modern stuff. The heavy stuff; yes, more expensive to manufacture from new than many steam locomotive parts, but again, straightforward in engineering terms.

 

Mark

[woodenhead]

45015 NEWS

 

I could have begun a new thread, but it's appropriate to bring this thread back to life as......

 

45015 is to be covered in TARPAULIN

 

Yes, 10 years on from this thread being started 45015 is to finally get some protection from the elements, others may have a different view on why the railway is allowing it to be covered, but I will go with protection.

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, woodenhead said:

45015 NEWS

 

I could have begun a new thread, but it's appropriate to bring this thread back to life as......

 

45015 is to be covered in TARPAULIN

 

Yes, 10 years on from this thread being started 45015 is to finally get some protection from the elements, others may have a different view on why the railway is allowing it to be covered, but I will go with protection.

Protection, For whom.. the 45 or the people passing it ?

Edited September 3, 2020 by adb968008

[Northmoor]

6 hours ago, woodenhead said:

45015 NEWS

 

I could have begun a new thread, but it's appropriate to bring this thread back to life as......

 

45015 is to be covered in TARPAULIN

 

Yes, 10 years on from this thread being started 45015 is to finally get some protection from the elements, others may have a different view on why the railway is allowing it to be covered, but I will go with protection.

 

It wouldn't be the first loco in preservation for whom the owner had great plans (dreams) of restoration costing well into six figures, but apparently couldn't afford the most basic of items costing three figures.

[Titan]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Protection, For whom.. the 45 or the people passing it ?

 

Could well be the latter, is there a risk of Asbestos release, possibly due to deteriorating condition?

[woodenhead]

11 hours ago, Titan said:

 

Could well be the latter, is there a risk of Asbestos release, possibly due to deteriorating condition?

I am guessing a risk of asbestos would require something more than a bit of tarp.

 

Here's an idea - Cover the loco in plastic bags - apply heat to shrink wrap then paint the coating blue and yellow - instant Palitoy 45.  It will look preserved but at a fraction of the cost of rebuilding it from the fuel tank upwards.

[DCB]

With 11 other preserved class 45 wouldn't it be better to quietly strip it of re usable spares and cut it up.    I appreciate the value of Diesels for running off peak trains and as stand by locos on preserved  railways but Class 26 and the like are cheaper simpler and kinder to the track than the typical 1 Co Co 1.   45s may well appeal to a certain demographic but I saw them in service and they didn't do anything for me, I much preferred a 47 or an HST.  

To make any money, even a fraction of restoration costs a loco needs a unique selling point, I would travel 200 miles to see something different, a Saint on the NYMR, A Manor on the West Highland (500 miles)  or a Waship on the West Highland come to think of it. 

The younger generation will like the locos they knew in their youth, Black 5's  A4's  Frying Scotchman, 64XX, S&D 7Fs, Hogwarts Castle the currently operational preserved locos, maybe recreations of them, but will they hanker after 800s?  I doubt it.   67s and 68s possibly. 

Its a same they never saved the bits from the Frying thingy because they could have  bodged them together and made a static version for the NRM and still had a working replica.

Mind you there is scope for a subtle renaming or two for a USP.   Hogwarts Hall, ( B17 or 49XX )  Hogwarts Manor. Hogwarts Court (Didcot Saint!)   Just think of the value of USPs  Maybe that £50 it cost to have a mountain named after them was the best investment a certain glazing company ever made.

[russ p]

By the sounds of it there aren't many usable bits left on it, buts that's not to say it should be scrapped. 

Many people said the two NBLs in Barry were beyond saving and they were scrapped nowadays people would have been happy to take them on 

Who's to say in the future someone wish a vast amount of cash may want to take it on, or another one gets damaged and it could be sold to repair it.

 

[chris p bacon]

Without reading back through the whole thread to check, I think the issue is that with asbestos within the body it needs to be encapsulated to cut it up which will cost far in excess of any value from the metal or parts.

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, chris p bacon said:

Without reading back through the whole thread to check, I think the issue is that with asbestos within the body it needs to be encapsulated to cut it up which will cost far in excess of any value from the metal or parts.

 

This. Removal costs would be rather high for the complexity. There's the advantage that the strippers would be allowed to cause damage which would make their lives easier.

 

From what I've read there is next to notihng worth saving off of it - even the bogies are cracked?

[adb968008]

Sounds like it would easier to cut a hole in the embankment, lean it in, and bury it.

[298]

On 04/09/2020 at 10:53, DavidCBroad said:

To make any money, even a fraction of restoration costs a loco needs a unique selling point,

 

It is the only remaining class 45 built with nose doors and split boxes.

 

Now Peak noses (the yellow bit) are fairly interchangeable and another preserved Peak at Barrow Hill has at least one spare, but this variation has only seen on the class 44s. 

 

 

21 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Sounds like it would easier to cut a hole in the embankment, lean it in, and bury it.

 

The asbestos content isn't actually that high (it's not like it's sprayed everywhere inside as insulation as it's largely pipe lagging), it's just difficult to physically deal with as well as the paperwork and required safety considerations. 

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by 298
New information 're asbestos content