34theletterbetweenB&D Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 In the same vein as PMP, I do feel that Oxford's LNER design 6 plank general merchandise open got a less than fulsome welcome, considering that it is comfortably the best RTR wooden bodied big four build GMO. These are such essential wagons for steam era modelling. and even with the two visible errors of the brake gear and the door top rendition (both happily easy to correct) I would have hoped for more than the modest hurrah it received. (And still mystified why the LNER's GMO designs have lately had all the love, when the even more numerous and essential LMS types, both opens and vans, are ignored. But then, I am easily baffled.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted December 7, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 7, 2018 Baffles me as well. The trade has yet to produce a decent LMS van, the best being Baccy's Ashford wartime supply, or a 5 planker, and ex LMS GM vans and wagons were the most common in the early BR period, Similarly, decent representations of these most common types from the GW and Southern are not available except as kits. Nothing wrong with kits, unless you want a 60 wagon rake and don't have much time or the eyesight and steadiness of hand to apply the numbers and lettering on them, and are going to run into problems with buffers or couplings on setrack curves. If we accept that RTR modelling is a valid part of the hobby, this lack is a fairly big one! The biggest gaps in provision on my 1950s WR BLT are ex LMS or GW GM wagons, and the biggest overprovision is of LNER types. The Southern was always the smallest contributor to the pool, and I could do with a Southern 5 plank to tick the box, but it doesn't worry me that much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 [tangent] Airfix GMR to the rescue - tooling now with Hornby - a 17'6" body on 10' wb five plank GMO probably closest to the SR's late thirties type. Often incorrectly private owner liveried from Hornby. They could actually offer it in all Big 4 liveries quite legitimately* as all the groups built very similar wagons. *More legitimate than Bach's try of a 16'6" body length five plank mineral masquerading as a GMO. [/tangent] 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 The biggest gaps in provision on my 1950s WR BLT are ex LMS or GW GM wagons, and the biggest overprovision is of LNER types. The Southern was always the smallest contributor to the pool, and I could do with a Southern 5 plank to tick the box, but it doesn't worry me that much. While the Southern may have been the smallest of the four, it seems to have had the wartime capacity at Ashford - not a million miles from 'Hellfire Corner' - to build vans and open goods wagons for the other Companies as well as the military .......... at least the open is available from Cambrian now, but the Ratio* van still needs a better roof after all these years - and yes decent R.T.R. versions of both types in a variety of appropriate liveries. ( Please, Mr.Oxford - if you take up this batten please, PLEASE use standard length axles ! ) * Why does my spell-checker always insist on putting an 'n' on the end of that word ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted December 10, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 10, 2018 Ashford's output was indeed prodigious for the other railways during the war. As far as the vans were concerned, I understand that this was due to a very large amount of pre-cut timber for the distinctive planking being stored there, and the Ministry of Supply decreed that this should be used up as it was no use for anything else and timber is a strategically vital resource in wartime, one that had to be imported at great risk. Something like 8.000 vans to the SECR standard design were build for the LMS, and a good number for the GW; I have Bachmanns in Southern, LMS, and BR 'M' prefix, only the Southern one is fitted. I'm on the lookout for a plywood one... I'm quite happy with my Bachmanns, better than the Ratio and very well finished. They were still fairly common during my own time as a guard at Canton in the 70s, all fitted and in bauxite livery by then and mostly late 40s/early 50s vintage, still from Ashford. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Ashford's output was indeed prodigious for the other railways during the war. As far as the vans were concerned, I understand that this was due to a very large amount of pre-cut timber for the distinctive planking being stored there, and the Ministry of Supply decreed that this should be used up as it was no use for anything else and timber is a strategically vital resource in wartime, one that had to be imported at great risk. Something like 8.000 vans to the SECR standard design were build for the LMS, and a good number for the GW; I have Bachmanns in Southern, LMS, and BR 'M' prefix, only the Southern one is fitted. I'm on the lookout for a plywood one... I'm quite happy with my Bachmanns, better than the Ratio and very well finished. They were still fairly common during my own time as a guard at Canton in the 70s, all fitted and in bauxite livery by then and mostly late 40s/early 50s vintage, still from Ashford. I think you'll have to put up with Ratio if you want a plywood one; it'll still be better than the one I scratch-built about forty-five years ago. Those Maunsell roofs are a pain to fashion out of plastic card. Part of the reason that Ashford builtr wagons, rather than locos, was because it was perceived as being vulnerable to air attack. Wagons, at least wooden ones, use much less expensive machinery than do locos, so risks of prolonged stoppage after a raid were percieved as being less disruptive. The odd planking, along with the roof profile, were down to the way that the tree trunks were sawn-up. the broader planks came from the centre, but, with care, narrower planks could be extracted from what might otherwise be thrown away. In later years, planks would also be cut thinner to maximise the yield. The 5-plank wagons manufactured for the LNER used these thinner planks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Ashford's output was indeed prodigious for the other railways during the war. As far as the vans were concerned, I understand that this was due to a very large amount of pre-cut timber for the distinctive planking being stored there, and the Ministry of Supply decreed that this should be used up as it was no use for anything else and timber is a strategically vital resource in wartime, one that had to be imported at great risk. Something like 8.000 vans to the SECR standard design were build for the LMS, and a good number for the GW; I have Bachmanns in Southern, LMS, and BR 'M' prefix, only the Southern one is fitted. I'm on the lookout for a plywood one... I'm quite happy with my Bachmanns, better than the Ratio and very well finished. They were still fairly common during my own time as a guard at Canton in the 70s, all fitted and in bauxite livery by then and mostly late 40s/early 50s vintage, still from Ashford. Not quite SECR standard ..... apart from the twin vents, alternative ( alternating ) planking, different overall length and wheelbase, the Southern vans didn't have the drop flap - just two cupboard doors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted December 10, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 10, 2018 I think you'll have to put up with Ratio if you want a plywood one; it'll still be better than the one I scratch-built about forty-five years ago. Those Maunsell roofs are a pain to fashion out of plastic card. Part of the reason that Ashford builtr wagons, rather than locos, was because it was perceived as being vulnerable to air attack. Wagons, at least wooden ones, use much less expensive machinery than do locos, so risks of prolonged stoppage after a raid were percieved as being less disruptive. The odd planking, along with the roof profile, were down to the way that the tree trunks were sawn-up. the broader planks came from the centre, but, with care, narrower planks could be extracted from what might otherwise be thrown away. In later years, planks would also be cut thinner to maximise the yield. The 5-plank wagons manufactured for the LNER used these thinner planks. I have a cunning plan, my lord... A plywood Ashford van could be presumably bodged reasonably successfully by filling in the gaps between the planks with Milliput or the like. The problem, in my case, at that point would be numbering it; one could preserve the lettering from the donor van but the number would have to be correct for a plywood version. The sort of thing you do with an Ashford that you'd bought cheap but didn't really want in that livery. But I would be looking for a bauxite fitted BR one first! An alternative would be to graft a Bachmann roof on to a Ratio kit. I can't be doing with different roof profiles; stands out like a sore thumb. This would still leave me with the numbering problem. Hasn't decent RTR made us all lazy?... well, not just that, applying HMRS wagon numbers is a bit much for my feeble old aged short sightedness and wobbly hands! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted December 10, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2018 Sorry, I may have missed something here but Bachmann have made a plywood-bodied SR van (if I haven't misunderstood what was being said) because I've got one! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted December 11, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 11, 2018 (edited) Yup, just checked the catalogue and there are 2, 38-076C and 38-075B, BR bauxite with vac pipes and Southern brown unfitted respectively. There doesn't seem to be a BR bauxite planked version, though! I've never seen these plywood vans in the shops but will keep a look out for them; both are suitable for my period. Surprising the difference it makes to the appearance. Problems solved, then, thanks Steve! Edited December 11, 2018 by The Johnster 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Yup, just checked the catalogue and there are 2, 38-076C and 38-075B, BR bauxite with vac pipes and Southern brown unfitted respectively. There doesn't seem to be a BR bauxite planked version, though! I've never seen these plywood vans in the shops but will keep a look out for them; both are suitable for my period. Surprising the difference it makes to the appearance. Problems solved, then, thanks Steve! For some reason the Bachmann plywood van seems to be noticeably longer than the ( correct length ) Ratio ones - maybe they've withdrawn them from production for a re-think ? ....... but - just to get almost back on topic - maybe Oxford will beat them to it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 For some reason the Bachmann plywood van seems to be noticeably longer than the ( correct length ) Only by 1mm. The larger error is that along with some other vans in their range they are 2mm too wide. To my eyes the Bachmann roof profile is even worse that Ratios, which seemed to be based on the drawing by Carter. A good few years ago I enquired of Peco if they would supply separate roof mouldings from their Van B kit. They said they couldn't (I've recently been told they now do) so I bought individual rood mouldings from the Parkside CCT vans. That now may be problematical with Peco now owning the Parkside range. P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 A good few years ago I enquired of Peco if they would supply separate roof mouldings from their Van B kit. They said they couldn't ........... P hmmmmm ......... a good few years ago, when I enquired, I WAS sold a handful of Van B roofs .... but that was when Ratio were still Ratio. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted December 11, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 11, 2018 To add to the mix, Hornby are apparently to introduce a van B, presumably to replace the 'Utility Van' which dates back to early Triang days and is very dated nowadays. This will presumably have a correctly profiled Ashford roof, but not as a separate piece; it'll be integral with the sides and ends. And I don't thing the doors are going to be openable on this one! I have a utility van which I have been working up for several decades and getting nowhere with, needing Maunsell bogies and better underframe detail, but with the new Hornby in the offing I think I'll abandon it as the roof is irredeemable without a lot of faff. We are a long way from Oxford 7 plank opens! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 To add to the mix, Hornby are apparently to introduce a van B, presumably to replace the 'Utility Van' which dates back to early Triang days and is very dated nowadays. This will presumably have a correctly profiled Ashford roof, but not as a separate piece; it'll be integral with the sides and ends. And I don't thing the doors are going to be openable on this one! We are a long way from Oxford 7 plank opens! Maybe you blinked - Hornby's Van B has been available for a number of years ............ possibly since before the 'Corr PMV' approximation reappeared in the 'Railroad' range. Yep - STILL a long way from 7-plankers ...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Here you go. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted December 11, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 11, 2018 Maybe you blinked - Hornby's Van B has been available for a number of years ............ possibly since before the 'Corr PMV' approximation reappeared in the 'Railroad' range. Yep - STILL a long way from 7-plankers ...... R4837, Maunsell Passenger Brake Van B (Era 5), £47.99 (!), Pre Order Now. Pre Order Now suggests to me that the model is not yet available though in the pipeline somewhere. I already have a Van BY, 4 wheeled in crimson, don't know the R number off hand; this has been available for some time and is not in the current online catalogue, even as out of stock; looks like the boat's sailed on that one. A few 4 wheeled NPCCS seem to have disappeared, including the LMS CCT, but there is apparently a new Gresley BG on the way (but I'm trying to cut down on 64' bogie stuff). The LNER CCT, another one I bought when the going was good, has also disappeared. I am beginning to realise that the modern trade is not like it was 40 years ago when very few new models appeared but the ones that were there were in production for very long periods. Nowadays, there are production runs and the tooling is retired for a few years while a reservoir of demand builds up, so it's best to buy stuff when it's in the shops and not put purchases off. This does not play well to the likes of me who have limited budgets, but the manufacturers don't (and for sensible business reasons probably shouldn't) worry about the likes of me who only buys stuff in very small quantities; we don't pay the shareholder's dividends! There are pros and cons to this way of going about things; a greater choice of models is presented to the market over a given time and there is better opportunity to upgrade, but this is of little help to anyone who wants a BY, or either LMS or LNER CCT, now! The Van B will certainly be on my shopping list when it appears, but I don't think it has yet, even at nigh on £50; it looks to be a very good model with a lot of detail and character. I liked these Ashford outline vans when I worked on the railway in the 70s, a direct connection to an older form of stock and a change from steel panelled. It'll be worth the extra cost over the Ratio; I find Ratio kits a bit faffy and my numbering skills are not up to the fine lettering in my dotage. And the green will tick a livery box. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted December 11, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 11, 2018 R4837, Maunsell Passenger Brake Van B (Era 5), £47.99 (!), Pre Order Now. Pre Order Now suggests to me that the model is not yet available though in the pipeline somewhere. I already have a Van BY, 4 wheeled in crimson, don't know the R number off hand; this has been available for some time and is not in the current online catalogue, even as out of stock; looks like the boat's sailed on that one. A few 4 wheeled NPCCS seem to have disappeared, including the LMS CCT, but there is apparently a new Gresley BG on the way (but I'm trying to cut down on 64' bogie stuff). The LNER CCT, another one I bought when the going was good, has also disappeared. I am beginning to realise that the modern trade is not like it was 40 years ago when very few new models appeared but the ones that were there were in production for very long periods. Nowadays, there are production runs and the tooling is retired for a few years while a reservoir of demand builds up, so it's best to buy stuff when it's in the shops and not put purchases off. This does not play well to the likes of me who have limited budgets, but the manufacturers don't (and for sensible business reasons probably shouldn't) worry about the likes of me who only buys stuff in very small quantities; we don't pay the shareholder's dividends! There are pros and cons to this way of going about things; a greater choice of models is presented to the market over a given time and there is better opportunity to upgrade, but this is of little help to anyone who wants a BY, or either LMS or LNER CCT, now! The Van B will certainly be on my shopping list when it appears, but I don't think it has yet, even at nigh on £50; it looks to be a very good model with a lot of detail and character. I liked these Ashford outline vans when I worked on the railway in the 70s, a direct connection to an older form of stock and a change from steel panelled. It'll be worth the extra cost over the Ratio; I find Ratio kits a bit faffy and my numbering skills are not up to the fine lettering in my dotage. And the green will tick a livery box. That SR Bogie Passenger Brake Van (Van B) is actually a re-issue of a model which Hornby have already released in various liveries over the past few years. I'm not sure when it first came out but I've had one for several years. If you're able to shop around you might be able to find some of the earlier ones still in stock, or second hand? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pteremy Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/57017-sr-van-b-misnamed-as-gangwayed-luggage-van 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welchester Posted December 12, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 12, 2018 Here you go. I suspect that's out of gauge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) I suspect that's out of gauge. Just needs a bit of tweaking : https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bulleid+sugar+beet+wagons&rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB770GB770&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=B61vbsm0Vjv2TM%253A%252C1DJbNN_PGfhIMM%252C_&usg=AI4_-kRD23mFmSdz5YgTTLEiOEAuExGq1w&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwias-b0j5rfAhUrsaQKHeuFA64Q9QEwAnoECAQQCA#imgrc=Pzcrkncc16e1HM: Edited December 12, 2018 by Wickham Green 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted December 12, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 12, 2018 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/57017-sr-van-b-misnamed-as-gangwayed-luggage-van Ah. So out of stock and awaiting a re-issue then; enough to persuade me away from the faffy Ratio! I knew these as Van B in my BR days, but this was BR terminology; I would not consider qualified to say what the Southern called them. Triang's 'Utility Van', a gangwayed bogie van without a guard's compartment, is a different beast, and not the same as a GUV, which has end doors and is not gangwayed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigherb Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Ah. So out of stock and awaiting a re-issue then; enough to persuade me away from the faffy Ratio! I knew these as Van B in my BR days, The new batch of Van B's have just landed at Hornby, so we can get back to 7 planks now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 The new batch of Van B's have just landed at Hornby, so we can get back to 7 planks now ...... is there anything more to be said ? ............... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Yes, does anyone have a photo of one on the Brassmasters underframe specifically for it? Horses for courses, I'm mulling over the Bachmann/Oxford/Parkside/Slaters approach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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