SG's descent into comparing Swiss n gauge - Formally; SBB Coaching Stock Liveries

[Satan's Goldfish]

Evening all.

 

I've been watching a lot of Swiss rail YouTube recently covering the last 30 years following a holiday a few months ago (because why not). While I've been able to find a lot of info on locomotive uses and liveries (first they were all green, then they started painting them red), carriages are confusing me a little.

 

I've borrowed some pictures from the Internet below, sorry mods if I've violated anything!

 

First up what I think are referred to as the EW ii stock. Initially all green as per A. Then change of logo as per B. And colour variations C. and D. Do these liveries refer to any specific type of train/service? E. seems to be the 'newest' livery applied to these carriages for use in stopping services (I think, although 1 video had a pair attached to another service) but seems to have vanished now.

 

On the videos I've been watching and the visit earlier in the year, B. C. and D. still seem to be in occasional use. Either as additional carriages to more modern stock or on some of the older videos as block sets made up of mostly matching liveries.... but all performing the same roles it seems. So why the 3 different liveries?

 

A.

 

B.

 

C.

 

D.

 

E.

 

 

Next up is 'modern' stock (EW iv?) which seems to start off as F. or G. (G. for international services?). At some point there's a modification from F. to the top coach of pic H. (Dark blue is night stock, I got that one!) I. appears alongside F. at some point, but now I. seems to have completely vanished to become J.

 

So again the older livery F can still be spotted as extra carriages attached to sets of J, where's I. and G. have vanished. So what was intended uses of all these different liveries? Especially as during the same time there was the very specific 'Swiss Express' orange sets as Well!

 

F.

 

G.

 

H.

 

I.

 

J.

 

 

 

Finally there's plain green K. and the logo update to L. which match the profile of the more modern coaches but seem to be an older design (note opening windows). I've only spotted these singley in a couple of videos up to mid/late 90s attached to other stock and there seems to be no discernable pattern to their use. So what was their original purpose and did they ever run as a block?

 

K.

 

L.

 

 

Thanks in advance for info, my German is slowly improving but not to the required level for this!

Edited December 28, 2017 by Satan's Goldfish

[cornish trains jez]

Hi,

 

I modelled the Swiss scene quite a few years back and the "reos" videos are an excellent starting point as I purchased many of their DVD's.

Here's a YouTube upload of one of them. Their website is re-os.nl

 

 

Best regards,

 

Jeremy

[DaveF]

I can only comment on my own observations for some of the examples you give.

 

EWII coaches, which are the Swiss "lightweight" design intended for internal services, as in photo A.  This was a livery which was starting to be replaced by the example in photo B by 1988 when I spent almost a month photographing railways in Switzerland.  On each succeeding visit the proportion in livery B increased.

 

I think the version in photo C with the turquoise stripe had received some refurbishment, but I have no details.  I've ridden in them but cannot remember what the interior was like.

 

I encountered D in the later 1990s, but don't know what the livery was for.  I remember seeing some in the north east in that livery lettered "ICH BIN REX" - REX being the Rheintal Express service - I don't have further details.

 

I believe the blue and grey ones in photo E were painted to be used as the centre two coaches in the RBDe460 sets (Kolibri or NPZ trains), but I have seen them in ordinary loco hauled trains as well.

 

Moving on to K and L.  

The Minitrix model is somewhat short of scale length. K and L represent RIC coaches intended for international traffic, built around the late 1960 into the 1970s.  In real life there are several distinct designs of this period.

 

G is again an RIC coach, in Eurofima orange. the various types were built around 1977 to 1981 (according to my SBB book on coaches- SBB Reisezug und Gepackwagen - published by SBB in 1982).

I believe the idea was to paint international coaches in the same colour for all countries - it didn't eventually work but some countries did use the colour.

 

F,H,I,J are the various liveries for the EWIV coaches.

I think you have them in date order in your photos.  I haven't been to Switzerand for some years so cannot give any date information.

The blue ones are night coaches, previously they were plain blue with a white (or was it silver?) stripe.

 

I am sure there are other members of RMWeb who know a lot more than me about this, so am happy to be corrected.

 

One further point - SBB never seem to be in much of a hurry to repaint coaches (or locos) unless it is necessary so new and old liveries often coexist.

 

The EWIII stock, originally orangy red and grey were designed to have tilt mechanisms fitted, hence a different body profile, but that never happened.  I believe they are now owned by BLS and are painted in their latest livery.

 

In the late 80s and 90s when I saw Swiss trains each year on holiday it was always noticeable that the stock in a train could be quite mixed.  For a number of years almost all trains over the Gotthard had one or more EWII coaches, I was told this was because some passengers (tourists) wanted to be able to open windows to enjoy the views.

 

In those days most trains were loco hauled, strengthening coaches were added at times of high passenger demand which often didn't match the main part of the train.  In the case of push pull sets this could involve an extra couple of coaches and a driving trailer being added, which looked very odd.  Now and then a loco could end up in a train with the main train, then the loco, then the strengthening coaches.

 

There are quite a lot of Swiss photos in my European railway photo thread which you may find useful.  It is at:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/98009-a-few-of-dave-fs-european-railway-photos-updated-26th-december-2016/page-1

 

Ernie Brack (irishswissernie) also has a lot of Swiss railway photos on flickr, his albums can be found at   https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/albums  He has over 30,000 photos on flickr, the albums are arranged alphabetically by location, so you will have to look at several pages to find all his Swiss albums.

 

 

Edited several times as each time I read it I notice another error.

David

Edited December 27, 2016 by DaveF

[MikeTrice]

This might help with some of them: http://www.railfaneurope.net/liveries/

 

Specifically http://www.railfaneurope.net/liveries/swisscol.gif

[jjb1970]

I miss the Swiss green livery. Designs like the Ae6/6, Re6/6 and various versions of the Re4/4 looked best in green IMO.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Cornish - yes I have become very familiar with REOS to the point that Mrs SG isn't amused!

 

DaveF - lots of info to absorb, thank you. (And you noticed all pics were the same scale....)

 

Dutch_master, thanks for the link, more German practice for me and should answer a lot of my questions.

 

Mike - not seen that site before but that's a brilliant source. Thanks.

 

JJB, couldn't agree more.

[east_anglian]

From trips over the last 4 years, I can comment on current operations:

C and D have now disappeared. They were used up until fairly recently (around 2013/2014) either in a rake with an Re4/4'' on R (Regio) or IR (InterRegio) trains or to strengthen other loco hauled IR or RE (RegioExpress) services. I particularly remember them being used to strengthen the IR trains from Basel/Zurich to Locarno via the Gotthard and on the Rheintal Express (bit of a posh name for the RE train between St.Gallen and Chur!), where they were used with several other different coach types, often all in the same train. E is still (but only the version with doors which are flush with the coach sides) used with an Re 4/4'' and driving trailer on a few peak time workings and on ersatzzug workings which replace other trains at short notice, quite often ICE services between Zurich and Basel SBB when the incoming ICE has to be turned around at Basel SBB because of late running earlier on in the inbound working from Germany.

 

F (EW IV) is used on internal workings, such as on IR or IC (InterCity) trains in fixed formations with driving trailers or sometimes non fixed formations. I Believe they are all now in the current ICN livery (as in picture J). The EW IV coaches are also used in short sets used to strengthen push pull services formed of other EW IV coaches. The sets are usually 2 second class coaches and a driving trailer which are then attached to either the 460 or the existing driving trailer in the original formation. The down side to this is that passengers cannot move from the existing rake of coaches and the strengthened set because the driving trailer or loco is in the way. These ‘strengthening sets’ are also attached to formations of IC 2000 double deck coaches, which are also used on IC and IR services. 

 

Then we have I and J EC Wagen. These are the same type of coach, with I in the earlier livery and J in the current ‘ICN’ livery. These coaches are used on EC (EuroCity) services that run into Germany and Austria (but several more countries previously) and also on internal IC and IR trains. When they were in the earlier grey livery, they weren’t used in fixed formation push pull trains with EW IV coaches. However, since they have been repainted (and presumably modified?) they are now intermixed with EW IV coaches in these fixed rakes on push pull services.

 

The EuroCity and EW IV coaches are very similar in appearance and now they are all in an indentical livery they are easily mistaken for each other! One of the easiest ways I've found to tell them apart is the location of the doors and toilet windows. On EC coaches the door is on the end of the coach and the toilet window between the door and the standard windows. It is the opposite on the EW IV coaches, with the toilet window on the outside end of the coach and the door between that and the rest of the coach.

 

An interesting variant of the EC coaches is the Panorama coach. Up until December these were mainly used on the IR over the Gotthard but from the timetable change they are now used on EC trains to Graz, Hamburg, and Munich.

 

Then we have the top coach in picture H. These are still in regular service, and a few remain in this livery. They are currently being modernised and many are now in the ‘ICN’ livery. However, the green livery on these coaches has only started to disappear in the last 2/3 years and was not quite extinct when I was in Switzerland in July. They are mainly used to strengthen IC and IR trains that are not in fixed formations. These coaches are all 2^nd class. 

 

This website provides a very interesting insight into current operations: http://www.reisezuege.ch/reisezuege/index.php?action=12

Edited December 29, 2016 by east_anglian

[Satan's Goldfish]

Thank you, very comprehenisive overview there.

[Satan's Goldfish]

OK then, another for the Swiss carriage experts; not mentioned yet is restaurant coaches. A lot of them seem to be equipped with a pantograph, but I've not noticed any of them ever with their pan up in videos/pictures/on holiday. So what's the deal there then?

 

(Same also applies to the RhB baggage vans that were modded to have pans added, (although i think i read they were for train power so less load on the locomotive when needing all their power) never seen those raised, that's a lot of expense to then not be used)

 

((And can anyone point me in the direction of a Minitrix 1st class EC grey carriage (like I. above), eBay has not been my friend for 1 of those and can't find any anywhere Else!))

[Frutigen]

My impression from recent photos and videos online, and my own visits is that restaurant cars in the current ICN livery have had their pans removed.

[Gordonwis]

Correct

[Gordonwis]

Due to inactivity on the RM web I've arrived late to this thread.

 

I model in N gauge Swiss so can relate to the photos

 

I've been around and about Swiss coaches regularly for about 40 years, so here's my attempt at a simple summary:

 

 

The main SBB types can broken down into various categories:

 

1) heavyweight = old builds 1920 - 40s

2) leischstahl/leger = the revolutionary centre entrance light steel coaches that hailed the Swiss 'inter-city'. First introduced in the late 1930s - the essentail concept survives in use to this day - 80 years on

3) Einheitswagen (EW) = standard coach. EWI/EWII/EWIII/EWIV. Best referred to as EW but 'Mark I' also used in English - and its remarkable how close the dates of SBB and BR 'Mark' coaches are !

4) UIC type X (normally known as 'RIC' - international compartment coaches

5) UIC type Z 

6) Type 'EC' 

5 + 6 are usually thought of as the 'Eurofima ' type, especially 5

 

Your pictures with designations  as used by SBB

 

 

A + B

- EW I/II in original green . Lima did EWI, Brawa now doing EWII

 

C

EWI and II post refurbishment. The blue stripe was known as a 'comfort stripe' to distinguish refurbished coaches that had cloth seats instead of the original leatherette.

 

D

same as C - multi coloured version known as 'Papagei' (Parrott)

 

E

EWI/II rebuilt for use in push pull sets and to be used as intermediate coaches with new built NPZ motor coaches and driving trailers (reusing existing stock was cheaper) 

Poor model as most of these coaches have plug doors not the original folding doors

 

F

EWIV in original livery The new green/grey was introduced for  these coaches when new to brighten things up.

All now in current standard black/white livery

 

G

UIC type Z  aka Eurofima: built for several European railways a the same time: design and orange livery was part of an attempt to introduce a pan European single style for international trains - was widely adopted by Swiss, Austrian Italian and Belgian railways but others were less enthusiastic

 

H (top picture)

'RIC' coach (UIC type X)  livery to denote refurbished (built 1972, refurbished 1988 - 97) and also to match EWIV. Compartments removed and converted to open stock as no longer required for International use

Blue liveries were the couchette variant

 

In practice most of these have now been rebuilt with automatic doors and repainted in the current standard black and white livery

 

I

'Type EC' coach in 1990s grey

 

J

same as I 'Type EC' coach in current standard livery

 

K

ancient out of scale (foreshortened as was common in the 1970s) Minitrix model of RIC (ie representes same vehicle as the Kato model (H and L)

 

L

older livery on an RIC coach (ie same as picture H). Same note about black livery applies)

Edited February 4, 2017 by Gordonwis

[Satan's Goldfish]

Hi Gordon, that's very good info, thank you. Struggling to find a 1st class I, tempted to improvise with a 1st or 1st/2nd L instead.

[Gordonwis]

Hi Gordon, that's very good info, thank you. Struggling to find a 1st class I, tempted to improvise with a 1st or 1st/2nd L instead.

 

I'm currently selling off some surplus SBB N stuff so please contact me off list if interested

[Satan's Goldfish]

Next question;

 

Are ew i and ew ii slightly different length?

 

Reason I ask, just noticed on the Lima NPZ that the 2nd class centre coach is slightly shorter then the 1st/2nd class centre coach and was wondering if this was accurate or just Lima being Lima. Doesn't notice when the train is in a line, just when 1 coach is above the other in the box.

 

Cheers

[Frutigen]

Next question;

Are ew i and ew ii slightly different length?

Reason I ask, just noticed on the Lima NPZ that the 2nd class centre coach is slightly shorter then the 1st/2nd class centre coach and was wondering if this was accurate or just Lima being Lima. Doesn't notice when the train is in a line, just when 1 coach is above the other in the box.

Cheers

You got me thinking and I came across this official SBB web page with all sorts of rolling stock data

 

https://data.sbb.ch/explore/dataset/rolling-stock/

 

It says EW I is 23,700mm LoB and EW II is 24,240, which looks to me like just over half a metre or 2ft ish longer.

 

I measured various generations of the Lima and Arnold models and the body lengths (ignoring corridor connections) are 145mm (scale 23,200mm) for EW I and 150mm (scale 24,000mm) for EW II.

 

Gratuitous photo attached showing (top to bottom) Lima Minitrain coaches from the NPZ set, Lima green coaches, and Arnold coaches in NPZ livery. The Arnold models have the correct type doors for current NPZ but I think I read somewhere that the earliest sets did have recessed doors like the Lima models.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Interesting. Just been and roughly measured a Brawa EW ii which was just shy of 150mm.

 

That answers the question of what the difference is between the 2 EW then. Thanks.

[Gordonwis]

All EWI 'normal' coaches (ie not including restaurant (slightly shorter) and club and driving trailer cars) = 23700mm

 

EWII, three batches: either 23700, or 24240, or 24700mm

 

The Lima NPZ set is largely correct - especially for the early years of the NPZ, with the A/B composite being a EWII, so longer but only just at 24240mm, from the batch of EWII modified 1984 - 94 to go with the NPZs

 

However, the recessed doors make it unrealistic for an up to date layout, as the plug doors were fitted a good while ago now

Edited May 29, 2017 by Gordonwis

[Satan's Goldfish]

Back again.

 

Lots of hours wasted on YouTube have failed to answer this, but are the EC coaches compatible with the EWiv push pull sets?

 

The driving trailer profile seems to match EC with the coaches as EWiv but it's not always clear to tell. However EC/EWiv/RIC mix seems common on loco hauled sets.

 

Thanks chaps.

[hexagon789]

Yes, when the EuroCity (EC) coaches were refurbished and few years ago they were all made push-pull compatible with the EW IVs. Indeed most, though not all, EW IV push-pull sets have at least one EC coach in the formation these days. The basic EW IV InterRegio set consists of 7 coaches: Re460-AS-A-Bpm-B-B-B-Bt. The Bpm is a Second Class EC coach which provides wheelchair accommodation and an accessible toilet. The remaining vehicles are all EWIVs. Several push-pull sets, particularly those used on InterCity workings contain a mixture of EC and EW IV vehicles. From what I have observed the EuroCity vehicles are more common in InterCity push-pull sets but this is by no means a set rule.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Yes, when the EuroCity (EC) coaches were refurbished and few years ago they were all made push-pull compatible with the EW IVs. Indeed most, though not all, EW IV push-pull sets have at least one EC coach in the formation these days. The basic EW IV InterRegio set consists of 7 coaches: Re460-AS-A-Bpm-B-B-B-Bt. The Bpm is a Second Class EC coach which provides wheelchair accommodation and an accessible toilet. The remaining vehicles are all EWIVs. Several push-pull sets, particularly those used on InterCity workings contain a mixture of EC and EW IV vehicles. From what I have observed the EuroCity vehicles are more common in InterCity push-pull sets but this is by no means a set rule.

That explains it nicely. Thought some of the white/black looked to be EC, but not found any EC grey in the push/pull sets. Cheers.

[Gordonwis]

Back again.

 

Lots of hours wasted on YouTube have failed to answer this, but are the EC coaches compatible with the EWiv push pull sets?

 

The driving trailer profile seems to match EC with the coaches as EWiv but it's not always clear to tell. However EC/EWiv/RIC mix seems common on loco hauled sets.

 

Thanks chaps.

 

 

 

Rather than wasting time on youtube, go to Reisezüge.ch.

 

Select http://reisezüge.ch

 

On the main page from the list on the left click on 'Alle Fahrzeuge auflisten' then scroll down looking for the SBB Bpm in black and white - this is the EC 2nd class coach - it is the 100th item in the list (not the Bpm in green which is the RIC type)

 

Click on the picture of the black/white Bpm and you wil get a list of the trains that these run in (lots...)

 

then click on a train number to see the formation (and to see if it is a push pull set)

 

 

.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Gordonwis

[brigo]

Might find this link works better

 

http://www.reisezuege.ch/

 

Brian

[Satan's Goldfish]

cheers guys, very useful. More work to improve my German.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Spot the quality difference between a Brawa ew2 and a Lima ew1....

 

 

Not too bad from normal viewing distance though. And yes there's the slight length difference between a ew1 and ew2 as mentioned on the previous page

 

Edit: my lima ew1 has 'opening windows', those pictured on the previous page do not. Was there differences or upgrades over the life of the ew1? Thanks

 

Edit 2: done a good Google picture trawl, getting the impression the Lima coach could do with re-glazing. While I'm at it, is an n-scale 'comfort stripe' transfer available does anyone know? Seems an easier option than trying to spray one on.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Satan's Goldfish