SG's descent into comparing Swiss n gauge - Formally; SBB Coaching Stock Liveries

[Gordonwis]

On 18/02/2022 at 12:32, Satan's Goldfish said:

Although the stripe is white compared to Roco's silver, are they both correct?

 

A Minitrix DB IC/EC 2nd has appeared. Lots of longer plan options here, but for now it will make up for the lack of SBB EC 2nds in the box. When did the 2nd class IC/EC coaches change from Cream/Blue to Red/White? And could the 2 liveries been seen running together in Switzerland?

 

 

 

 

 

The Roco silver stripe is incorrect

 

When you say 'cream/blue' livery do you mean the two tone EC livery shown in this picture? If so this livery is two tone grey (similar to SNCF Corail) with a lighter grey and a dark 'slate' grey

 

 

The change of all IC stock to red/white/black started around the time the IC2000 double deck stock was built (ie 1996). You can safely put two tone grey and red/white in the same train representing any time during the livery transition period 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Gordonwis

[Gordonwis]

On 18/02/2022 at 12:42, Satan's Goldfish said:

Next up I think I'll be looking for blue sleeper coaches. Any advice on what they would usually run with? YouTube research seems to suggest 2 or 3 blue coaches tacked onto what otherwise seems like a normal service.

 

 

 

 

I've got some surplus SBB sleepers - pm me for further discussion please

 

Couchettes and sleepers were usually in ones and twos running with day coaches - I used to watch the Geneve - Roma etc services at Geneve in the 1980s

[Satan's Goldfish]

13 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

 

The Roco silver stripe is incorrect

 

When you say 'cream/blue' livery do you mean the two tone EC livery shown in this picture? If so this livery is two tone grey (similar to SNCF Corail) with a lighter grey and a dark 'slate' grey

 

 

The change of all IC stock to red/white/black started around the time the IC2000 double deck stock was built (ie 1996). You can safely put two tone grey and red/white in the same train representing any time during the livery transition period 

 

Cheers for the info Gordon. The picture didn't appear. But DB blue/cream 2nd class coaches as per below along side the red/white DB IC/EC as per the model a couple of posts back.

 

 

Image from this website: https://www.jadlamracingmodels.com/minitrix-db-ic611-gutenburg-express-coach-set-3-iv-n-gauge-15460/

 

On one of the many YouTube videos I did see the SBB using a DB 2nd class predominantly red coach (same type as the bottom coach of the above 3) to make up the numbers in their grey EC sets. But I've yet to see a model of those in N, they're all interegio blue.

[Gordonwis]

9 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

Cheers for the info Gordon. The picture didn't appear. But DB blue/cream 2nd class coaches as per below along side the red/white DB IC/EC as per the model a couple of posts back.

 

 

 

Image from this website: https://www.jadlamracingmodels.com/minitrix-db-ic611-gutenburg-express-coach-set-3-iv-n-gauge-15460/

 

On one of the many YouTube videos I did see the SBB using a DB 2nd class predominantly red coach (same type as the bottom coach of the above 3) to make up the numbers in their grey EC sets. But I've yet to see a model of those in N, they're all interegio blue.

 

Sorry I thought you were referring to Swiss coaches. I see you were referring to DB coach liveries.

 

Change from turquoise/beige to light red/cream took place mid 1990s. There are pictures of DB 2nd in red in 1994 but also still in traditional 'Turkis/beige' in 1995 and later

[Satan's Goldfish]

8 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

 

Sorry I thought you were referring to Swiss coaches. I see you were referring to DB coach liveries.

 

Change from turquoise/beige to light red/cream took place mid 1990s. There are pictures of DB 2nd in red in 1994 but also still in traditional 'Turkis/beige' in 1995 and later

 

Cheers Gordon. Yes it was more of a DB question than SBB! I know there must have been a crossover period with mixed sets, but I don't recall ever seeing any pictures.

 

I've sent you a pm

[Satan's Goldfish]

On 21/02/2022 at 01:04, Gordonwis said:

 

I've got some surplus SBB sleepers - pm me for further discussion please

 

Couchettes and sleepers were usually in ones and twos running with day coaches - I used to watch the Geneve - Roma etc services at Geneve in the 1980s

 

PM sent

[DavidMcKenzie]

Checking in here now and again has got me hooked. So many interesting formations, I've read the thread again from the beginning and I'm still not 100% sure I understand it all, but never mind. These interlopers will need their own layout .....

 

 

All the best,

Dave

[Satan's Goldfish]

Nice interlopers!

[Gordonwis]

On 13/03/2022 at 18:15, DavidMcKenzie said:

Checking in here now and again has got me hooked. So many interesting formations, I've read the thread again from the beginning and I'm still not 100% sure I understand it all, but never mind. These interlopers will need their own layout .....

 

 

 

 

All the best,

Dave

 

 

It's so long since I saw a 'Ruritania' style layout (popular when I was a 'lad' in the 1970s) that I really love the mind-bending sight of Swiss stock on UK railway infrastructure!

 

By the way the green Re4/4 is from the duff batch produced in error by Fleischmann with the SBB CFF far too low on the bodyside.

 

 

 

[DavidMcKenzie]

9 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

 

 

It's so long since I saw a 'Ruritania' style layout (popular when I was a 'lad' in the 1970s) that I really love the mind-bending sight of Swiss stock on UK railway infrastructure!

 

By the way the green Re4/4 is from the duff batch produced in error by Fleischmann with the SBB CFF far too low on the bodyside.

 

 

 

So it is, I never noticed that before. There is so much variation in Swiss stock around that time that a lot of things which weren't 100% correct don't stand out so much as they do with the wcml modeling of the same period......but that's a pretty big error on an otherwise really nice little model. I will see if I can fix it when time allows. 

 

All the best,

Dave 

[DavidMcKenzie]

Does anyone know if there is Swiss rolling stock the works on code 40 rails? I've been impressed with the look of it on the current layout I am building, but have seen that none of the Swiss stock I've got my hands on so far runs on it. Even brand new Fleischmann locos and coaches have flanges which are too deep. And if nothing works with code 40, does anyone have experience with code 55 at least? 

 

And a second question (I'm sure it won't be the last ). Does anyone know if the colour scheme on the left would of been seen (at all, even if not regularly) in the bern-thun-spiez-interlarken kind of region in the late 90s? I'm on the search for a location with SBB/BLS mix on a route which would allow ICE1 to not look out of place as a basis for a twin track simple layout (Ideally with a green backdrop rather than either city or the grey of higher in the mountains). I've found a few good videos and all sorts of livery combinations, but that's an interesting livery that seems to be one I couldn't model if I stick to the region mentioned above. 

 

 

All the best,

Dave

[Gordonwis]

On 16/03/2022 at 07:32, DavidMcKenzie said:

So it is, I never noticed that before. There is so much variation in Swiss stock around that time that a lot of things which weren't 100% correct don't stand out so much as they do with the wcml modeling of the same period......but that's a pretty big error on an otherwise really nice little model. I will see if I can fix it when time allows. 

 

All the best,

Dave 

 

It is believed that having just issued a TEE livery model where the SBB CFF has to be lower down the bodyside to cater for the red/beige split Fleischmann put it in the wrong position 

[Gordonwis]

On 17/03/2022 at 21:28, DavidMcKenzie said:

 

 

And a second question (I'm sure it won't be the last ). Does anyone know if the colour scheme on the left would of been seen (at all, even if not regularly) in the bern-thun-spiez-interlarken kind of region in the late 90s? I'm on the search for a location with SBB/BLS mix on a route which would allow ICE1 to not look out of place as a basis for a twin track simple layout (Ideally with a green backdrop rather than either city or the grey of higher in the mountains). I've found a few good videos and all sorts of livery combinations, but that's an interesting livery that seems to be one I couldn't model if I stick to the region mentioned above. 

 

 

All the best,

Dave

 

None of the three coaches pictured is very accurate for day to day SBB. The right hand one is a Minitrix 'shorty' RIC - Hobbytrain or Kato do the correct version. The middle coach is a fantasy - a type of coach never owned by SBB. The left hand coach is a SBB EWIII Swiss Express. They only ran in orange livery in full rakes of similar coaches, latterly in push pull mode. The only single orange 'EW' coach was one painted in the Swiss Express livery as a trial circa 1972 before being introduced on the EWIII Swiss express coaches (Minitrix) . The latter might have fitted your parameter as it might have visited Interlaken on test, but not in the 1990s, long after it lost the livery

 

The coach can be seen in pictures 20-115 and 20-116 in the Polier archive: www.polier.ch/page/archiv/Sutter/normal/SBB/20/SBB.20-03.htm

Edited March 21, 2022 by Gordonwis

[Gordonwis]

2 hours ago, DavidMcKenzie said:

I'm on the search for a location with SBB/BLS mix on a route which would allow ICE1 to not look out of place as a basis for a twin track simple layout (Ideally with a green backdrop rather than either city or the grey of higher in the mountains).

 

 

Your idea is easy to achieve because - as I frequently remind people  - a Swiss layout doesn't have to be 'in the Alps' to be 'Alpine' as there are plenty of railways in Switzerland that are dead straight and level despite being in or very close to the mountain areas - this is because the main transport arteries in Switzerland are (for obvious reasons) often in wide valleys.

 

It's your lucky day! The location you are looking for just happens to be one of my favoured photo spots in Switzerland - Kiesen.

 

Kiesen is a station on the fast straight section of the Bern - Thun main line. You can easily have a straight double track with fields to one side and a hillside backscene - I've been tempted to do the location myself !

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by Gordonwis

[chb2488]

The left hand model looks like a normal EW III in original condition. After gaining new aircon, a new logo and a driving trailer, they served the Bern - Langnau - Luzern line (among others). That puts them just inside the Aare valley!

[Satan's Goldfish]

Been a while, but I've not had much comparing to do until recently. I've just realised as well that all the old pictures have gone when the RMweb server issue happened, nevermind it gives me an excuse to go through some of the old formations I've been building up at some point.

 

I apologise for the lighting in the following pictures, I'm starting to think my house is one big shadow.

 

First up, I recently shared a YouTube video on another thread (link at bottom) and there were a couple of short formations (Re460, baggage, AB, B, B) that tickled me a bit but I realised I had the stock to mimic them.

 

 

 

A good mishmash mash for comparison. L to R; Brawa EW ii, Lima EW i, Hobbytrain RIC, Minitrix baggage van. They do all seem to sit well together.

 

Following conversations on other threads I have tried to picture the end differences between the EW i and ii but it's not the clearest. (ii L, i R)

 

 

 

Next up, I've started on night stock, and finally in the form of a Fleischmann sleeper I've found an item who's white body line matches the height of that on the Ibertren FS Eurofima!

 

 

As can be seen there it doesn't match the livery levels of the Minitrix Eurocity on the left so I'll avoid running any of those with it. Next up will be getting some Couchettes to see how they sit with it, and working on the rest of a very international service (Italian, German, and Swiss so far)

 

 

 

 

Finally, I've been working on my BLS formation. I'd already done a comparison between the Fleischmann and Roco SBB EW iv coaches so didn't feel the need to do the same for BLS. So the BLS EW iv coaches that I've got so far are all Fleischmann (purely because that's what the first one I found at a price to good to ignore was) but I've no preference between either manufacturer. 

 

Plenty of YouTube research has shown that BLS formations tended to be; baggage, 2x A, 3 or 4x B. The research also showed that if the formation was made up of a mix of EW i/ii and iv then the iv would be coupled together and i/ii would be at the outer ends. I've found a pair of Lima BLS EW i to help complete my BLS set, to my eyes from normal viewing distance they look ok along with the much newer Fleischmann coaches:

 

 

 

I don't currently have any BLS locomotives or baggage vans in my collection, but SBB locomotives often seem to often be used to pull BLS services along with SBB coaches boosting capacity so the below would be a perfectly reasonable way of running this service:

 

 

 

 

Some video'd services just seemed to be made up of whichever companies EW i/ii were available to make it up. In model form, Brawa SBB EW ii sit fine between the Lima BLS/SBB EW i coaches.

 

 

 

 

Hopefully I can find somewhere with better lighting next time I've picked up something new!

 

Video link to short formations in first pictures:

 

 

[Gordonwis]

1 hour ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Congrats - you've done the clever thing and put the 'too high on its haunches' Minitrix baggage next to the dome roof RIC which disguises the height. Many of the Minitrix baggage models are old ones, so the bogies are attached to the chassis in a rather basic old fashioned way. Putting bogies from Lima EW will take the height down a bit.

[Satan's Goldfish]

22 minutes ago, Gordonwis said:

 

 

Congrats - you've done the clever thing and put the 'too high on its haunches' Minitrix baggage next to the dome roof RIC which disguises the height. Many of the Minitrix baggage models are old ones, so the bogies are attached to the chassis in a rather basic old fashioned way. Putting bogies from Lima EW will take the height down a bit.

 

 

That was purely from copying the prototype, but good to know it has a model use! I think a couple of my Minitrix vans are considerably newer than the others, will check for era differences 👍

[DavidMcKenzie]

Some nice pictures/formations 👍. It was such an interesting era wasn't it. The trains often looked like they were made up entirely spontaneously, yet from my memory (I was only a kid in the mid 90s) they were generally on time and comfortably full without being over crowded, so they seemed to get it right. 

 

All the best,

Dave 

[Gordonwis]

 

26 minutes ago, DavidMcKenzie said:

Some nice pictures/formations 👍. It was such an interesting era wasn't it. The trains often looked like they were made up entirely spontaneously, yet from my memory (I was only a kid in the mid 90s) they were generally on time and comfortably full without being over crowded, so they seemed to get it right. 

 

All the best,

Dave 

 

Many SBB services are still similarly set up with extra 'fixed blocks' of stock added to 'standard' formations on a regular basis.

 

here is my shot from June 2022 of a train with two 'blocks' of coaches and two  Class 460s

 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Gordonwis

[DavidMcKenzie]

Great photo! Nice to see there are still all sorts of wonderful formations and it's not gone completely in the direction of standard units 👍.

[Gordonwis]

6 hours ago, DavidMcKenzie said:

Great photo! Nice to see there are still all sorts of wonderful formations and it's not gone completely in the direction of standard units 👍.

 

Thanks - photo courtesy of a combination of Easyjet, Italian airport chaos, weather and Swiss night flying curfew rules,  all of which - instead of on the late evening flight back to LGW - put me in a hotel in Geneva for the night followed by free morning in Geneva...

Edited September 17, 2022 by Gordonwis

[Satan's Goldfish]

On 15/09/2022 at 00:15, Gordonwis said:

 

 

Congrats - you've done the clever thing and put the 'too high on its haunches' Minitrix baggage next to the dome roof RIC which disguises the height. Many of the Minitrix baggage models are old ones, so the bogies are attached to the chassis in a rather basic old fashioned way. Putting bogies from Lima EW will take the height down a bit.

 

Following that, I've been through all 6 of my baggage vans and at first I couldn't see any differences between any of them. They are all labled as Trix Western Germany on the chassis, and the bogies and fittings all looked the same.

 

I did eventually spot a slight difference in bogie slot head screw design though but holding the 2 models side by side there was no other obvious differences. picture below, the bottom one has more slender screw heads and I suspect is a more modern model:

 

 

 

 

Following that I placed them on their wheels on a smooth surface (mainly because I realised I'd never checked to see if the green/grey livery on the van would match that of a roco coach) and sure enough, there's a slight difference in roof height between the 2 van models.

 

 

 

 

I'll now have to go through all of them again and look for the different screws on the chassis, and avoid running the tall ones next to other EW i/ii coaches. 

[Gordonwis]

9 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

Following that, I've been through all 6 of my baggage vans and at first I couldn't see any differences between any of them. They are all labled as Trix Western Germany on the chassis, and the bogies and fittings all looked the same.

 

I did eventually spot a slight difference in bogie slot head screw design though but holding the 2 models side by side there was no other obvious differences. picture below, the bottom one has more slender screw heads and I suspect is a more modern model:

 

 

 

 

Following that I placed them on their wheels on a smooth surface (mainly because I realised I'd never checked to see if the green/grey livery on the van would match that of a roco coach) and sure enough, there's a slight difference in roof height between the 2 van models.

 

 

 

 

I'll now have to go through all of them again and look for the different screws on the chassis, and avoid running the tall ones next to other EW i/ii coaches. 

 

 

I have never obtained the later model as by the time the coaches were in the later livery, the ex-SNCF baggage coaches were around.

 

It definitely looks like a different moulding

 

 

 

[Satan's Goldfish]

22 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

 

 

I have never obtained the later model as by the time the coaches were in the later livery, the ex-SNCF baggage coaches were around.

 

It definitely looks like a different moulding

 

 

 

 

The ex SNCF baggage coaches seem a lot more difficult to find...