Oxford Rail announces Warwells

[Norton961]

A photo of the Comet on a Warwell (Hattons one!)

 

 

Thanks to Arthur for confirming the vehicles on the Warwells I posted.

 

David

[Ian_B]

Some examples of loads on Warwells.

Chilwell with tracked vehicles on War wells..jpg

 

This photo taken at Chilwell in the 1960s but am unsure of the load.

 

This photo shows an armouured car (Saladin I think).

 

Warwell 2.jpg

 

This looks like a Scorpion.

 

Warwell 1.jpgWarwell 3.jpg

This looks like a command vehicle

Please feel free to correct me on these vehicles.

 

Saladin, Scorpion, Saxon. Scorpion still in service, Saxon out of operational use - Wikipedia says 147 still in storage in the UK so still a valid wagon load for inter site transfers

Ian_B

[markw]

The ones behind the 8f are sextons

[Norton961]

Just Googled Sexton and that's an interesting vehicle remaining in service until 1956. Lots were sold to Portugal and lasted until the 1980s. The photo of the 8f hauling them in Warwells is undated. Now got to see if anyone makes a resin kit.

 

David

[PaulRhB]

Some examples of loads on Warwells.

[="http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=888929]Warwell 2.jpg[/url]

 

This looks like a Scorpion.

 

.

Saladin, Scorpion, Saxon. Scorpion still in service, Saxon out of operational use - Wikipedia says 147 still in storage in the UK so still a valid wagon load for inter site transfers

Ian_B

It's a Scimitar and still in service, the long narrow gun, actually a 30mm cannon, is the giveaway. Scorpion had a much shorter 76mm gun and are all retired. Edited August 24, 2017 by PaulRhB

[Mad McCann]

Regarding the Comet in transit. From what I've observed, once long-barrelled main armaments such as 17pdr and 76mm(long) were adopted, it seems more common for the tanks to travel with the turret traversed aft. It's most certainly been that way in continental practice since 1942/3 going from photos.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Mad McCann

[exet1095]

Some examples of loads on Warwells.

Chilwell with tracked vehicles on War wells..jpg

 

This photo taken at Chilwell in the 1960s but am unsure of the load.

 

This photo shows an armouured car (Saladin I think).

 

Warwell 2.jpg

 

This looks like a Scorpion.

 

Warwell 1.jpg Warwell 3.jpg

This looks like a command vehicle

Please feel free to correct me on these vehicles.

The top vehicle is a Saracen.

 

The second is a Scimitar.

 

The third is a Saxon.

 

I have qualified on all three of these.

[GreenGiraffe22]

I wish the warwell with the tank would hurry up and come in to stock at Derails, they're offering it for £30, I could pay now and wait but I don't like managing my finances that way. 

[Black 5 Bear]

Some examples of loads on Warwells.

Chilwell with tracked vehicles on War wells..jpg

 

This photo taken at Chilwell in the 1960s but am unsure of the load.

 

This photo shows an armouured car (Saladin I think).

 

Warwell 2.jpg

 

This looks like a Scorpion.

 

Warwell 1.jpg Warwell 3.jpg

This looks like a command vehicle

Please feel free to correct me on these vehicles.

[Black 5 Bear]

Comment removed failed to read full article. Apologies.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Black 5 Bear

[Norton961]

As a varient to having Sherman tanks as loads, if modelling 1944/5 and perhaps a little later, a model of the Centaur which was a Cromwell varient can be made up in 1/76 as a resin kit. This version had a short barreled howitzer (which is in the extras bag) and was used as a support vehicle for the Marines during the Normandy landings.

After the war these were sold to India and Portugal.

 

 

David

 

[Fat Controller]

As a varient to having Sherman tanks as loads, if modelling 1944/5 and perhaps a little later, a model of the Centaur which was a Cromwell varient can be made up in 1/76 as a resin kit. This version had a short barreled howitzer (which is in the extras bag) and was used as a support vehicle for the Marines during the Normandy landings.

After the war these were sold to India and Portugal.

 

IMG_1203.JPG

 

David

The Centaurs were used by the Royal Marines to provide close support fire from the landing craft approaching the beaches; at one point, it was questioned as to whether they would be needed to leave the craft, and if not, the engines would have been reused elsewhere. Engines for the Cromwell family had been in desparately short supply, being modified from Merlins recovered from crashed aircraft.

Many Centaurs didn't make it far from the beaches, eventually ending up as 'features' in town squares and roundabouts.

[Enterprisingwestern]

As my knowledge of warwells can be written on the back of a postage stamp with a poker, can anyone advise what the correct bogies should be?, BR ers, rail carrier conversion.

I have the Hattons variety under the knife at the moment, and the diamond frame bogie seems a little under nourished, apart from running on Lima length axles with no width inbetween the sideframes for EM wheels, none of which is insurmountable, but I would like at least to be starting with the right source material.

Also, I assume they should be running on standard 3 hole wagon wheels.

 

TIA.

 

MIke.

[Fat Controller]

As my knowledge of warwells can be written on the back of a postage stamp with a poker, can anyone advise what the correct bogies should be?, BR ers, rail carrier conversion.

I have the Hattons variety under the knife at the moment, and the diamond frame bogie seems a little under nourished, apart from running on Lima length axles with no width inbetween the sideframes for EM wheels, none of which is insurmountable, but I would like at least to be starting with the right source material.

Also, I assume they should be running on standard 3 hole wagon wheels.

 

TIA.

 

MIke.

Diamond-framed ones, until rebuilt with air brakes. Wheels would have been discs, either plain or 3-hole.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Diamond-framed ones, until rebuilt with air brakes. Wheels would have been discs, either plain or 3-hole.

 

Which axleboxes though?, they are a type I haven't seen before, and also what wheelbase?, the model has 5' 9", I thought the real thing had 5' 6"

 

Mike.

[hmrspaul]

Which axleboxes though?, they are a type I haven't seen before, and also what wheelbase?, the model has 5' 9", I thought the real thing had 5' 6"

 

Mike.

http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/warwell/e35ea038c http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/warwell/e8d5c2eeb

 

For the benefit of others whom have read all of this and the Hattons Warwell topics, the wheelbase given on diagrams is 5ft. 9in. The axlebox possibly unique.

 

Paul

Edited August 29, 2017 by hmrspaul

[hmrspaul]

I should have added the wheel diameters.

 

Surprisingly the warflat and warwell maybe different and neither very standard!

 

For WW2 wagons  2' 9" for the Warwell;

Warflat I have official LMS diagrams which show Warflats as 3ft. on diag 40A  and USAFlat diag 40B (I have no idea what the difference is) as 2ft 9in. 

[although the bogies are similar for WW1 the wheel sizes are different again; Adrian Swain mentioned 3' 5" on the WW1 flat and 3' 0" on the Well wagon but I can't see diameters on the LMS diagrams I have of the MR, LNW and CR ones]

 

By the way the boiler conversions M360329 - 340  are on a diagram 133F dated 5 July 1949 [i've only just realised how vague Essery LMS wagons vol 2 is about these!] wheels are 2ft 9in.

 

Paul

[M.I.B]

Just found a photo on the internet showing a train of Crusader tanks (without any main guns in the turrets) on a string of Warflats, there were some carriages at the rear of the train, presumably the main guns were loaded in the carriages. 

 

Taking main armaments off it not for the faint-hearted.    And not a job you do to travel armour.  

 

A couple of reasons they may not have main armament:

 

1.  Usually fitted at time of manufacture, but these could be in the middle of a change programme - upgrade to a different barrel/bore etc.

2.  Conversion of "gun tanks" to bridge layers, flamethrowers, AVREs etc

 

The light weapons would be removed for travel.

 

 

The reason some armour has turret reversed for road or rail travel has no sinister or ulterior motive.  Don't over think this one - reversing the  turret often makes the total length less.

Edited August 31, 2017 by M.I.B

[john dew]

Would the gun barrel always be supported/secured in some way......as per Oxfords Sherman?

 

Cheers

 

John

[PaulRhB]

Would the gun barrel always be supported/secured in some way......as per Oxfords Sherman?

 

Cheers

 

John

They should be to prevent the possibility of vibration moving the mechanism and the gun elevating out of gauge.

[john dew]

Thank you......that makes sense. Many of the photos I have seen show the barrel strapped (chained?) rather than propped with a wood support as per Oxford........I am minded to strap rather than prop?

 

A different question......a Millicast Comet kit is on its way to me. Could you advise a source of suitable transfers for early 1948?

 

Kind regards

[M.I.B]

Different tanks and tracked artillery have/had different mechanisms for securing the barrels.  Some are external like the Abbot and Sherman "flip up" props, whilst others are inside the turrets.

[john dew]

Thanks MIB

 

So the barrel could be secured for transport within the turret without any external support? Is this a recent innovation ie post 1950?

 

I imagine the Comet would be before your time?  Nevertheless any advice on transfers/decals......dont want anything too complicated just reasonably credible from 3'

 

Regards

[JSpencer]

As a varient to having Sherman tanks as loads, if modelling 1944/5 and perhaps a little later, a model of the Centaur which was a Cromwell varient can be made up in 1/76 as a resin kit. This version had a short barreled howitzer (which is in the extras bag) and was used as a support vehicle for the Marines during the Normandy landings.

After the war these were sold to India and Portugal.

 

IMG_1203.JPG

 

David

FWIW Externally, there is no visible difference between a Royal Marine close support Centaur and a Close Support Cromwell. Hobby master did this in 1/72nd here: http://www.hobbymastercollector.com/HG3102.html

 

 

 

 

 

The Centaurs were used by the Royal Marines to provide close support fire from the landing craft approaching the beaches; at one point, it was questioned as to whether they would be needed to leave the craft, and if not, the engines would have been reused elsewhere. Engines for the Cromwell family had been in desparately short supply, being modified from Merlins recovered from crashed aircraft.

Many Centaurs didn't make it far from the beaches, eventually ending up as 'features' in town squares and roundabouts.

The RM Centaurs had turret angle markings copying a practice once used used on battleships (in RN service, Royal Marines manned one big turret on the big ships). In RN practice this was used to show other battleships in the line the angle the lead ship was shooting at. On the mast there would also be a dial indicating distance. The purpose of these markings in RN practice was for collective fire of a few ships at one target which would allow 2 or more older smaller ships to over power a single big one.

In the case of RN ships, they would be sailing in a straight line, with people observing these markings, measuring how far they were from the leading firing ship, and a mechanical computer would sort the rest out (later systems did away with the markings that were gone by WWII - the French developed this further using coloured dies to colour the shell splashes of each ship, fire could directed by a 3rd smaller ship).

None of these techniques would be practical or useful on a landing since tanks (in WWII) do not have range finders nor will there be spare crew members to note distances between each landing craft, nor any sophisticated fire control computers. Likewise a landing acts like a raft, is not a stable nor predictable gun platform and while the tank crew have protection, the landing craft can be sunk quite easily.

Close Support tanks are really mobile short range indirect fire artillery platforms, you would be able to exploit a grouping of such vehicles dispersed in small craft bobbing all over the place. There were actual gun fitted landing craft more suited to supporting the beaches with direct fire. This tanks are also short So I,m am sceptical that they could be used to fire from landing crafts in an open seaway, let alone hit a target or provide support.

They could really only be used once landed acting as a close artillery support unit as designed. One should also note that lead Sherman tanks were also assigned with them which had the same markings (that would justify Warwells if a unit was displaced by rail.)

 

EDIT: an interesting link on the deployment and organisation of Royal Marine Support Regiments and their role on D-Day: http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/royal-marines-armoured-support-regiment-2rmas-juno-d-day.50802/

 

Clearly each troop has 1 Sharman (would have been an old M4) and 4 Centaurs. If they travelled by rail, the train would either need to be organised with a mix of Warwells and Warflats or be purely Warwells (troops were not split up for travel).

 

Another interesting thing on the link, none fired their guns while going in, they worked only as close artillery support once on the beaches. Not shown in the link but from a written source to hand, 2 and 4 RM armoured support regiments were attached to and support the Commando units (both army and Royal Marine).

Edited September 2, 2017 by JSpencer

[JSpencer]

Some examples of loads on Warwells.

Chilwell with tracked vehicles on War wells..jpg

 

This photo taken at Chilwell in the 1960s but am unsure of the load.

 

This photo shows an armouured car (Saladin I think).

 

Warwell 2.jpg

 

This looks like a Scorpion.

 

Warwell 1.jpgWarwell 3.jpg

This looks like a command vehicle

Please feel free to correct me on these vehicles.

The first photo is either M7 Priests or Sextons (Canadian version of an M7 replacing the 105mm with 24 pounder guns). The photo is not sharp enough, but the tracks and smooth RH side suggests Sextons. These were mobile artillery guns (guns on a tank chassis).

 

The third photo is a Scimitar, same as a Scorpion but with 30mm Raden gun instead of 76mm. Recon regiments would have had both in the 70s.