Southern Rail Franchise

[Ian Hargrave]

Front page reports Southern Rail franchise at risk of being renationalised.The DfT is apparently considering taking direct control of Southern Rail and placing it in civil hands until another private operator can be found.

 

Been here before,I think....

[Dunsignalling]

I don't see it would make much difference, Southern has been doing the DfT's bidding for some time, hence all the strikes.

 

John

[Claude_Dreyfus]

I am sure it is being considered, but DaFT have the issue of (a) the lack of scapegoat if Southern are junked and (b) the risk of the RMT and ASLEF claiming 'victory'. Potentially GTR could be split between Southern and Thameslink/GN?

[phil-b259]

Potentially GTR could be split between Southern and Thameslink/GN?

 

That has been on the cards for quite a while now. Back in the summer one of the few things the DfT was prepared to admit (in total contrast to everything else about their role in fomenting and then sustaining the industrial dispute over DOO) was that the combined STGN  franchise was 'too large' for a single company to take on causing GTR to not be able to give the management time/ focus / that each 'brand' really needed to thrive.

 

The other thing that has not gone unnoticed is that come 2018, Thameslink will have a brand new fleet of trains serving very profitable medium distance commuting routes from the Home counties into London, plus some shiny new infrastructure at London Bridge that will need relatively little in the way of investment and as such it should become a nice cash cow for the Treasury. The Southern bit by contrast has stock that needs replacing (the 313s) or extensive overhauls looming (455s), needs more stock to cope with growth (London suburban routes), services with low revenue returns compared to London commuting routes (coastway routes from Brighton or Dorking - Horsham, etc)

 

With the Southern brand now also comprehensively trashed due to the DfTs desire to crush the RMT, splitting the TSGN franchise up also helps protect the Thameslink brand from cross contamination

 

Finally having two operators 'competing for customers' on the BML also fits in with the neo-liberal free market thinking which gave us the present franchise system back in 1994. True off peak consumers may well get a selection of better off peak 'Thameslink only' fares again, but with passengers continuing to complain about the complexity of the fare system, do we really want to add yet more 'options' for them to chose from.

[Derekl]

This has been knocking about - I wonder if Southern/GTR have had about enough of DfT interference - the brand, as is noted above, is trashed as a result of the DfT approach to the guards' issue. I am in difficulty in seeing how they split it up again, having decided that the combination of Thameslink, GatEx and Southern makes more sense - I think they have given up the neo-liberal thinking on line competition.

 

As well as the brand being trashed, it is reasonably clear that staff confidence/morale is not exactly great. I was on a Southern service from Hove (starts at Littlehampton, connects to an Ore/Eastbourne at Haywards Heath).

 

We managed to be about 10 late off Hove, advertised as 6 late (why not get the figures right), of little consequence as the Eastbourne rear portion didn't appear at Haywards Heath for about 25 minutes. I happened to be sitting near the area where the person that used to be called a "guard" was standing. A couple of supervisory looking chaps came up to discuss the problem. They were not exactly discrete, so I overheard it all. Southern (or perhaps DfT?) had decided that platform dispatch staff were not required at Lewes. The London bound platforms at Lewes are on a right hand curve (that is from me, not the conversation).

 

Drivers on the 8 coach 377s required to sign off dispatch decided the way to do it was to shut down the train and walk down, closing each door individually and then return to the cab, re-start and off, taking about 20 minutes.

 

I can see where the drivers are coming from - everybody else has this signed off as OK and safe, so when it turns out it isn't who is going to end up facing a manslaughter charge (with possible incarceration)?

 

What was more interesting was the totally contemptuous attitude of the supervisors and the "guard" to management. You simply can't run any operation like that - I know that there are always those in any operation that "know better", but this was not at that level - it was total contempt.

 

That is a lot to turn around - and whether the DfT, who are partially responsible (the exercise was not exactly great before the industrial issues) is the one to do it, we will have to see.

[Mark Saunders]

Rearranging the Deckchairs on the Titanic by a little bit of Political slight of hand!

[royaloak]

Front page reports Southern Rail franchise at risk of being renationalised.The DfT is apparently considering taking direct control of Southern Rail and placing it in civil hands until another private operator can be found.

 

Been here before,I think....

It isnt a franchise and never was!

Its a Management Contract and all Govia are doing is what the DaFT have told them to do (the DaFT are already in direct control, they are just hiding behind Govia), Govia are just really rubbish at doing what they are told to do.

 

I wonder if DaFT will manage to find another company to hide behind or will they finally tell us what we already know and that is that this is a Government/DaFT iddea to force DOO onto a railway and travelling public that dont want it.

 

Their previous statements that every train that previously had a Guard on board would have an OBS on board (except during disruption) has been shown on many occasions to be incorrect (somw would say a downright lie), wheelchair users are unable to get on or off the train even when booking 24 hours in advance etc.

[royaloak]

I am sure it is being considered, but DaFT have the issue of (a) the lack of scapegoat if Southern are junked and (b) the risk of the RMT and ASLEF claiming 'victory'. Potentially GTR could be split between Southern and Thameslink/GN?

There are no victors in this dispute!

[surfsup]

It isnt a franchise and never was!

Its a Management Contract and all Govia are doing is what the DaFT have told them to do (the DaFT are already in direct control, they are just hiding behind Govia), Govia are just really rubbish at doing what they are told to do.

 

I wonder if DaFT will manage to find another company to hide behind or will they finally tell us what we already know and that is that this is a Government/DaFT iddea to force DOO onto a railway and travelling public that dont want it.

 

Their previous statements that every train that previously had a Guard on board would have an OBS on board (except during disruption) has been shown on many occasions to be incorrect (somw would say a downright lie), wheelchair users are unable to get on or off the train even when booking 24 hours in advance etc.

Indeed I'm also now seeing reports of trains being cancelled because the Monitors in the 377s cabs aren't working and the OBS can't close the doors. Very Clever!

 

Of course the ones to come out nearly rosey in this if the GTR contract is ended will be the DfT. As you point out, all the ideas are being led by the DfT and GTR are just doing their bidding. Now that DOO Has been rolled out across Southern to a lot of peoples frustration, Ditch the dreaded GTR and pretend that things will suddenly be good again.

[royaloak]

Indeed I'm also now seeing reports of trains being cancelled because the Monitors in the 377s cabs aren't working and the OBS can't close the doors. Very Clever!

 

Of course the ones to come out nearly rosey in this if the GTR contract is ended will be the DfT. As you point out, all the ideas are being led by the DfT and GTR are just doing their bidding. Now that DOO Has been rolled out across Southern to a lot of peoples frustration, Ditch the dreaded GTR and pretend that things will suddenly be good again.

OBS is a non safety critical role and cannot undertake safety critical duties such as control of doors, even though Southern sent all OBSs a letter stating they were to relinquish their customer service duties at all stations to go to the doors to see if anyone needed their assistance (wasnt the removal of door duties allowing increased time to carry out CS duties one of the main selling points of this OBS role?) and if there was they were to 'key in' to a door control panel (a safety critical piece of equipment) and assist the passenger.

 

Why do I get the feeling Southern/GTR are making it up as they go along!

[DLT]

Thanks guys, this is a very informative discussion; you never get the real picture in any sort of news report.

Dave.

[Talltim]

Another issue for the DfT is that if Govia is actually in default (as opposed to just rubbish) and they don't do anything, it gives others TOCs a stick to beat them with if they are in default.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Thanks guys, this is a very informative discussion; you never get the real picture in any sort of news report.

Dave.

 

 

...nor in any public discussion.

As most of us on here know, politicians, the press, commentators and most members of the public with a view on this subject are comprehensively ill informed on the background and issues involved.

 

 

 

.

[Derekl]

While I am aware that some on here are not great enthusiasts for the Guardian, in view of the above comments, some may find this interview with Mick Whelan of ASLEF interesting:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/14/mick-whelan-aslef-train-drivers-union-boss-interview

[Coryton]

OBS is a non safety critical role and cannot undertake safety critical duties such as control of doors, even though Southern sent all OBSs a letter stating they were to relinquish their customer service duties at all stations to go to the doors to see if anyone needed their assistance (wasnt the removal of door duties allowing increased time to carry out CS duties one of the main selling points of this OBS role?) and if there was they were to 'key in' to a door control panel (a safety critical piece of equipment) and assist the passenger.

 

Why do I get the feeling Southern/GTR are making it up as they go along!

 

In my view, overall a guard is providing good 'customer service' by standing in the doorway or on the platform where they can see latecomers (and let them in through their door), spot if someone needs assistance getting on the train and someone can ask them where the train is going before they get on, etc, etc...

 

I think having to possible break off a conversation with a passenger on the train to do the doors is a price worth paying.

 

In general I think the driver opens the doors and guard shuts them is a very good combination. No waiting around to get on/off because the guard hasn't fought his way to the controls, but all the advantages I gave above.

[Coryton]

OBS is a non safety critical role and cannot undertake safety critical duties such as control of doors, even though Southern sent all OBSs a letter stating they were to relinquish their customer service duties at all stations to go to the doors to see if anyone needed their assistance (wasnt the removal of door duties allowing increased time to carry out CS duties one of the main selling points of this OBS role?) and if there was they were to 'key in' to a door control panel (a safety critical piece of equipment) and assist the passenger.

 

Why do I get the feeling Southern/GTR are making it up as they go along!

 

Had an interesting situation on Monday (during the guards' strike).

 

Southern trains towards Portsmouth Harbour were arriving at Havant and chucking their passengers out before carrying on empty.

 

I was on one of them - the driver made an announcement to the effect that if there was a conductor on the train they should contact the driver. I presume none did because we all then had to get off.

 

I asked the driver of the next train (politely) if this was as far as he could go DOO, and he said yes and muttered something about SWT.

 

A fellow passenger said that SWT won't permit Southern to dispatch trains from their stations DOO.

 

I have no idea if it's true but it would explain what was happening. 

 

We all had to wait for an SWT train but going the other way is presumably less useful because passengers wouldn't be able to get off an SWT and onto a Southern train there.

[Zomboid]

In general I think the driver opens the doors and guard shuts them is a very good combination. No waiting around to get on/off because the guard hasn't fought his way to the controls, but all the advantages I gave above.

This. It's how Cross-country do it, and (at least some) GWR pay-trains as well. Obviously doesn't achieve the cost saving of DOO, which is what the DfT are really after.

[Ian Hargrave]

This. It's how Cross-country do it, and (at least some) GWR pay-trains as well. Obviously doesn't achieve the cost saving of DOO, which is what the DfT are really after.

XC is a different proposition,I would think.Few stations on their long distance routes have ticket barriers for starters. Some services are rostered for combinations of 220/221 in multiple which presents another obstacle to DOO.

[njee20]

 

 

Southern trains towards Portsmouth Harbour were arriving at Havant and chucking their passengers out before carrying on empty.

 

I was on one of them - the driver made an announcement to the effect that if there was a conductor on the train they should contact the driver. I presume none did because we all then had to get off.

 

I asked the driver of the next train (politely) if this was as far as he could go DOO, and he said yes and muttered something about SWT.

 

A fellow passenger said that SWT won't permit Southern to dispatch trains from their stations DOO.

 

I have no idea if it's true but it would explain what was happening.

 

Coastway services presumably? Trains to have come from London via the Arun Valley would have had to get to Crawley, which is the first DOO station for most of them, they wouldn't get as far as Havant without having dispatched DOO somewhere en route.

 

It's an increasingly common occurence to arrive at 3 Bridges or Crawley and find that the cameras are not working and the service is terminated. Happened to me 5 or 6 times now, most recently on Tuesday night. There was an OBS, who was as useful as a chocolate teapot, not even knowing that we were terminating at 3 Bridges (unlike all the passengers).

[Coryton]

This. It's how Cross-country do it, and (at least some) GWR pay-trains as well. Obviously doesn't achieve the cost saving of DOO, which is what the DfT are really after.

 

And it's how Southern have been doing it up to now....

[The Stationmaster]

This. It's how Cross-country do it, and (at least some) GWR pay-trains as well. Obviously doesn't achieve the cost saving of DOO, which is what the DfT are really after.

 

GWR dmu services running in the former London Division area are all DOO(P) operated although some have revenue collection personnel on board - who have nothing to do with door operation.  Various other GWR local services have Guards - basically because they operate on routes which are not suitable/authorised for DOO(P).  Guards on Cross Country do appear to close the doors although I'm not sure if it is by direct control or signal to the Driver.

 

As far as Southern is concerned, and as others have noted, because it is operating on a management contract (and not a franchise) it is very much doing the DfT's bidding and in particular seemingly trying its hand at wish fulfilment for one Peter Wilkinson who app[ears to be in charge of franchising.  This situation actually appals me because the decision to adopt DOO(P) on any route/service is an operational safety decision and one that should be made by operating professionals who understand what they are doing rather than a remote Civil Servant who, to make matters worse, had stated publicly at a meeting in Croydon last year that 'he was going to take on the unions'.

 

DOO(P) does not involve any new technology at all, certainly from what I have heard on Southern where it is all established technology previously used in both Britain and elsewhere.  DOO(P) has never, to my knowledge, been responsible for any sort of operational safety incident since it was first used in Britain 30 odd years ago.  But, as Mr Prosser from the Inspectorate said, it does need the correct equipment and that equipment needs to be working properly; but with that proviso it is safe and its record supports that fact.  In my view it is a good idea - not because of Wilkinson's rabbiting about union bashing and saving money - but because it improves reliability, and that of course was a major reason why BR introduced it in the first place.

 

The recruitment of Guards has been a problem in many parts of the railway network in Britain for just about as long as I can remember and if you don't need one in order to run a train then reliability is immediately improved - as has been proven in a number of areas over the years.  Equally, and i'm sorry to say it, but there are those in the grade who have hardly helped themselves by taking little or no interest in the wider aspects of the role beyond blowing a whistle or waving a flag (or pressing a buzzer button) when a train is ready to start The provision of an on-train presence for other duties and reasons - principally revenue protection, but also in some instances what is called by the catch-all 'customer service', is a completely separate matter and subject to totally different, commercial, criteria. 

 

Overall the DOO situation on Southern has been badly handled from even before Day 1 of any staff consultation.  First we had Wilkinson shooting his mouth off which, apart from the fact that as a Cvil Servant he shouldn't have done so, was red rag to the staff and their unions; then there was an imposition from outside of 'you will' which is always a difficult thing to take to consultation - far more so than your own carefully considered proposals; then we had RMT seemingly spoiling for a fight; and - bluntly - what has increasingly come over as a rather inept and inexperienced senior management team at Southern.  The fact that the latter started with some problems such as a shortage of Drivers hasn't helped because they seem to have charged into one issue (DOO) without first clearing the decks by properly resolving another issue (Driver shortage)  Net result is that the poor folk who pay for and actually try to travel on Southern trains have paid the price for everybody else's stupidity and the RMT's (in particular) politicking.

 

Edit to correct typo and punctuation

[Coryton]

 

Coastway services presumably? Trains to have come from London via the Arun Valley would have had to get to Crawley, which is the first DOO station for most of them, they wouldn't get as far as Havant without having dispatched DOO somewhere en route.

 

It's an increasingly common occurence to arrive at 3 Bridges or Crawley and find that the cameras are not working and the service is terminated. Happened to me 5 or 6 times now, most recently on Tuesday night. There was an OBS, who was as useful as a chocolate teapot, not even knowing that we were terminating at 3 Bridges (unlike all the passengers).

 

 

Not Arun Valley I think because on Monday they were only running to Bognor.

 

But the point seemed to be that they could be dispatched DOO from Southern stations, but SWT wouldn't let them do it from theirs - hence the need to chuck everyone out at Havant.

 

As for trains being terminated because the cameras weren't working, I don't understand this at all. We were told that going DOO increases reliability because the train can run without a conductor. Nobody mentioned the risk of cancellations because the cameras had become safety-critical...

 

 

 

Coastway services presumably? Trains to have come from London via the Arun Valley would have had to get to Crawley, which is the first DOO station for most of them, they wouldn't get as far as Havant without having dispatched DOO somewhere en route.

 

It's an increasingly common occurence to arrive at 3 Bridges or Crawley and find that the cameras are not working and the service is terminated. Happened to me 5 or 6 times now, most recently on Tuesday night. There was an OBS, who was as useful as a chocolate teapot, not even knowing that we were terminating at 3 Bridges (unlike all the passengers).

 

[Coryton]

DOO(P) does not involve any new technology at all, certainly from what I have heard on Southern where it is all established technology previously used in both Britain and elsewhere.  DOO(P) has never, to my, been responsible for any sort of operational safety incident since it was first used in Britain 30 odd years ago.  But, as Mr Prosser from the Inspectorate said, it does need the correct equipment and that equipment needs to be working properly; but with that proviso it is safe and its record supports that fact.  In my view it is a good idea - not because of Wilkinson's rabbiting about union bashing and saving money - but because it improves reliability, and that of course was a major reason why BR introduced it in the first place.

 

DOO(P) has indeed been used for decades in the UK, with door viewing assisted by mirrors and/or monitors on the platform.

 

How long has DOO with door cameras been in use for on National Rail? Nothing like as long. So the technology Southern is relying on may not be completely new to National Rail, but it doesn't have anything like the heritage that DOO in general has. (Which isn't to say that it is or isn't safe enough, of course).

[roythebus]

There's been a couple of mentions of this re-nationalisation of the "franchise" on a couple of closed FB railway groups in the last few days, first mentioned on Monday.

 

What is different between the BR DOO days and today, is the trains are now generally longer, there are far more people travelling by train and more disabled taking advantage of the "new" disabled facilities that the TOCs have been obliged to install at great expense to ensure mobility for all. In my last months with BR in 1988, we were DOO trained, but only on empty stock and fright movements. Drivers used to see how much "aga" they got working ECS from Clapham Yard to Waterloo. Aga? Yes, as in the holiday song of the time Agadoo.

 

Having seen photos on the closed groups of the view from the various cabs, platform mirrors that are as useless as a chocolate teacan, and in-cab monitors that are just a blur, I can quite see why drivers are apprehensive. Remember too there's been a few drivers and guards prosecuted recently for dragging passengers along, not through their own fault, but by the stupidity and fault of the passengers. You can't legislate for stupid, so why should railway staff be blamed when they've apparently done all they can to make the railway safe? There is a very real possibility of a jail sentence in a couple the cases. If I were still on the railway, I would not like to have that responsibility.

 

The 313s are on their way out in certain areas like the GN. 455s will be around quite a bit longer, a few Plastic Pigs will lurk on their current duties for a while so I'm reliably informed by a close family member who is in charge of looking after them at a very high level. He wisely keeps quiet about the top management whoa re causing so much of the present problems. His job is to fix them when they go wrong, or even better prevent them going wrong in the first place. His remit takes in the entire GVT former BR fleet, quite a big task.

 

You'd have thought the DaFT and HMG would have learnt from other failed franchises that the system is not fit for purpose, but they don't seem to take notice of anyone these days, especially the electorate.

[Purley Oaks]

Don't think it's been mentioned above - is the TfL option worthwhile for part or all of Southern? (I know that the current MoT has said that he doesn't wish to give the current Mayor any more 'power', but that's purely party politics).

Mal