RMweb Premium 03060 Posted June 18 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 18 (edited) 3 hours ago, young37215 said: The use of more than 1 brake vehicle was seen right along the WHL in the early 1980's even in the shorter formed trains of the off peak months. This was particularly so on the Mallaig extension where in May 1982 37111 waits with a 3 coach consist at Mallaig containing BSO and Mk2 BFK. Another extension short formed train with BSO and Mk2 BFK headed by 37022 at Glenfinnan again in May 1982. It is quite possible that this is the same rake as in the previous picture given the dates and the coaches being in the same order. March 1982 saw even shorter trains, this one would be a challenge to model given that it includes a Mk1 BFK on a train hauled by 37262 approaching Lochailort . BFK and BSO combo on the 0600 ex Glasgow in March 1982 headed by 37085 at Glenfinnan. I am not sure of the length of the train because can't find any pictures showing the rear of the consist. 37085 leaves Fort William in 1981 with single brake vehicle, this time a BCK. In 1984 37085 again with a 4 coach consist including BSO's of Mk1 and Mk2 1984 with Mk2 D BFK and Mk1 BSO I could go on, there are so many variations if you choose to look for them. Excluding BG's and BSK's I think I have managed to include an example of every Mk1 and Mk2 brake vehicle in operation on BR in the early 1980's. All in all I think the pictures show that you can run pretty much any consist you like with as many brake vehicles as you want and the odds are your chosen rake will have operated on the WHL at some stage. The variety is just one of the numerous reasons I enjoy modelling the WHL. Just to add to the mix ... I'm seeing the 3 coach set in the first 2 photos (behind 37111 and 37022) as being a 5 windowed BSOT, TSO with a 4 windowed BFK bringing up the rear. I think that there is a BSOT in picture 4 as well. Currently on holiday, so don't have any books with me but when I do get home I will be ordering the latest edition of the Hugh Longthorne (?) Mk.1 and Mk.2 Coach diagrams book as it's definitely an area that I lack knowledge in. Regards, Ian. Edited June 18 by 03060 Additional comment. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold young37215 Posted June 19 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 19 (edited) 22 hours ago, 03060 said: the latest edition of the Hugh Longthorne (?) Mk.1 and Mk.2 Coach diagrams book as it's definitely an area that I lack knowledge in. It's Hugh Longworth and whilst an excellent book, the best information about coaching stock diagrams and the booked consists comes from historic internal BR publications. I had a look at the carriage workings (Passenger Train Marshalling (PTM)) as contained in the Yahoo drives run and managed by Robert Carroll who I believe is Corrour on RMWeb. For the early 1980's there are SCR versions for 1981, 1982 and 1983 available and each show a variation for WHL services from the previous year. Rather than duplicate the diagrams, the link below will take you to the PTM's and anyone that is interested can peruse to their hearts content by joining the Yahoo group. As a brief overview I did'nt see any SK's in the PTM, only TSO's, ocassional CK's and a wide variety of brake vehicles. The PTM makes me question having an SK in each rake as I currently do and I am pondering whether I sell a few SK's and replace them with TSO's. That said having just had a quick look on Ebay, blue and grey Mk1's seem in short supply at present meaning that absent re-mortgaging the house, I might just have to wait for Bachmann to produce another run of the TSO! Most of the trains were actually booked to have 2 brake vehicles, typically a BSOT plus perm any one of BSK/BFK or BCK meaning that my 2 Oban rakes are closer to diagram than I realised. Based upon how I operate WHL4, I need 5 rakes for mainstream services (3 Glasgow Mallaig and 2 Glasgow Oban) plus the mixed train stock that did a single return journey between Fort William and Mallaig in the late afternoon/early evening. This matches quite closely the 1981 PTM whereas in later years the Mk3 sleeper rake terminated/started at Fort William which meant an additional Mk1 vacum braked rake for the Mallaig extension services was required. I have tried running a 1985 timetable but I did'nt enjoy this as much as the earlier 1980's timetables. https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B7wNtUp2bp_eNVhLellLUDZoekk?resourcekey=0-MyJ3cCpov0nWPCpOI-41Tw&usp=sharing Edited June 19 by young37215 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreenhowards Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 Hi Rob et al, This has proved an interesting debate and you do find some great photos on Flickr. I have looked at the excellent Robert Carroll PTMs. While they show the plan, photos suggest that it varied from day to do depending, presumably, on coach availability and demand. I plan to start with two rakes on my layout (O gauge is expensive!). One will be a typical 2 coach off season train which depending on the year could be almost any combo of brake and non brake, but I think BSOT-TSO is about as typical as I can get. Like this photo. https://scotphoto.com/product/class-370127-heads-a-two-carriage-mallaig-to-f-william-train-nr-mallaig/ A Mk1 or 2 BFK might be better for some years but they’re currently difficult in O gauge. The other rake will be the 1982 observation car rake with SC1999 Lochaber (which I have a cunning plan to build). I’m basing this on the 1983 formation minus the second observation car. So it will be TSO,BSOT,TSO,BSK plus the saloon. Any observation on that formation would be gratefully received. Looking again at your photos (and being slightly mischievous!), I’d say the other type of brake not evident in your photos in a standard BSO without the buffet. I think I can make out a feint red line on all your BSO contenders but could be wrong. I know they did appear, but I think the non buffet versions were one of the rarer brake vehicles. Regards Andy 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mallaig1983 Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 That is an absolutely fantastic link Rob. My heart is indeed content. Thank you. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold young37215 Posted June 20 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 20 59 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said: Looking again at your photos (and being slightly mischievous!), I’d say the other type of brake not evident in your photos in a standard BSO without the buffet. I think I can make out a feint red line on all your BSO contenders but could be wrong. I know they did appear, but I think the non buffet versions were one of the rarer brake vehicles. Nothing mischievious, you are correct in what you say based upon my research which is also consistent with the PTM's. Whilst the SCR retained a small allocation of of BSO's according to my 1982 Coaching Stock book, most had been converted to BSOT by then. What the residual BSO's were used for or where they were allocated I do not know. For completeness, a quick Flickr search reveals some examples of Glasgow Oban consists of varying lengths. 37014 booked summer load 6 September 1981. The Mk1 BFK at the front is not available in OO, I think the rear coach is a BSK/BSOT but can't see clearly enough to identify it. 37192 in 1982, load 6 including adjoining BSOT and BSK 37081 summer 1983, load 6 includes BSOT and BSK again 37039 Autumn 1983, load 3 includes a BSK Another Autumn 1983, 37112 load 4 with just a BSK March 1984, 37175 approaches Tyndrum Lower with load 3 including a BSOT and a what appears to be a CK. I am always interested in pictures with a CK as I use them in my 4 coach rakes to provide first class accomodation. The SCR retained a few CK's into the 1980's although they were not that common on the WHL with first class whilst it existed usually provided by a Mk2 BFK. 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mallaig1983 Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 I poured over the PTM relevant for 1983 and hand wrote the set credentials for my own layout. Interesting that many services have a BSK stipulated but watching video of the West Highland Cine filmed in 1983 with train time and reporting numbers included in the narrative it’s obvious that the PTM was not hard and fast with BSK/BFK/BCK all seeming fair game. Maybe a TSO missing from a set. I note that the FW - MLG and return (mixed train) is set as BCK/TSO/TSO but I have seen this set with BSK/TSO/SK. It would appear that within reason a mild application of rule1 would be reasonably palletable. Nothing to radical. I really enjoyed going through all that yesterday evening so thanks again for the link. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonC Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 34 minutes ago, mallaig1983 said: I poured over the PTM relevant for 1983 and hand wrote the set credentials for my own layout. Interesting that many services have a BSK stipulated but watching video of the West Highland Cine filmed in 1983 with train time and reporting numbers included in the narrative it’s obvious that the PTM was not hard and fast with BSK/BFK/BCK all seeming fair game. Maybe a TSO missing from a set. I note that the FW - MLG and return (mixed train) is set as BCK/TSO/TSO but I have seen this set with BSK/TSO/SK. It would appear that within reason a mild application of rule1 would be reasonably palletable. Nothing to radical. I really enjoyed going through all that yesterday evening so thanks again for the link. Is there an easy way to distinguish an SK from a TSO externally? i.e. looking along a train from a picture without being able to see the interior layout 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mallaig1983 Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 The vents on the roof are offset to the compartment side if you look from above. I’ve always found it hard to tell them apart from a trackside angle but if it’s a video a careful eye will notice it’s easier to see through a TSO as it passes. Other than that I think you need to be lucky enough to see the number. I’m thinking a lot of peoples memories off compartments were in the BSK or BCK vehicles but although it rare an SK appears feasible. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold young37215 Posted June 30 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 30 Mallaig slumbers before it is lifted so that I can motorise the 2 bracket signals and fine tune some of the scenery. Elsewhere I have managed to acquire an additional SO and have 2 more that I already had to replace SK's. The SK's will be disposed of and are now listed on Ebay should anyone be interested. 16 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BoD Posted June 30 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 30 1 hour ago, young37215 said: Elsewhere I have managed to acquire an additional SO and have 2 more that I already had to replace SK's. The SK's will be disposed of and are now listed on Ebay should anyone be interested. Over the years I bought stock in preparation for my ‘retirement’ layout. Sadly I gave little thought to what I really needed and bought many things just because I liked them. In the case of coaching stock that was also tempered by what was available too. They say ignorance is bliss. I have, however, ended up with an imbalance of stock which yes, I could run but it wouldn’t be quite right. Do I just apply rule 1 while I seek to redress that imbalance? I don’t know. For similar reasons to those outlined above I have a handful of maroon mk1 second open coaches. I wonder how hard it would be to re-livery them and make a passable job of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PaulRhB Posted June 30 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 30 11 minutes ago, BoD said: I have, however, ended up with an imbalance of stock which yes, I could run but it wouldn’t be quite right. Do I just apply rule 1 while I seek to redress that imbalance? I’d just live with it for now, I’m in a similar position for a few items needed but it’s going to take a year or two to build the basic layout so I’ll concentrate on that while I wait. If you wait for the stock before starting you’re just losing time Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreenhowards Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 3 hours ago, BoD said: Over the years I bought stock in preparation for my ‘retirement’ layout. Sadly I gave little thought to what I really needed and bought many things just because I liked them. In the case of coaching stock that was also tempered by what was available too. They say ignorance is bliss. I have, however, ended up with an imbalance of stock which yes, I could run but it wouldn’t be quite right. Do I just apply rule 1 while I seek to redress that imbalance? I don’t know. For similar reasons to those outlined above I have a handful of maroon mk1 second open coaches. I wonder how hard it would be to re-livery them and make a passable job of it. I’d be interested in people’s experiences of painting blue grey. I’ve always found maroon easy and blood &custard harder but possible with use of the lining decals to cover the join. But blue grey looks very hard with the curves round the grey at the ends and ultra thin lining. I’m minded to have a go at cutting up a couple of Lima or Darstead mk1s to make a blue grey BFK, but the painting is putting me off. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6990WitherslackHall Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 3 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said: I’d be interested in people’s experiences of painting blue grey. I’ve always found maroon easy and blood &custard harder but possible with use of the lining decals to cover the join. But blue grey looks very hard with the curves round the grey at the ends and ultra thin lining. I’m minded to have a go at cutting up a couple of Lima or Darstead mk1s to make a blue grey BFK, but the painting is putting me off. Andy Have you tried transfers? I heard some company does coach bodyside ones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreenhowards Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 Just now, 6990WitherslackHall said: Have you tried transfers? I heard some company does coach bodyside ones. I did look at that. But the only ones I can find in 7mm are by Aquitrain and they only do the more common coach types. I might use one of their sides to go over the horrible jumble of parts I’d have left for the other coach after the conversion! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6990WitherslackHall Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 7 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said: I did look at that. But the only ones I can find in 7mm are by Aquitrain and they only do the more common coach types. I might use one of their sides to go over the horrible jumble of parts I’d have left for the other coach after the conversion! Electra Rail graphics do full liveries for coaches and locomotives. I learned about them on Model Rail when Chris Leigh used a set of Porterbrook coach bodyside transfers to make a barrier coach. Here's the link. Hope it helps. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://electrarail.co.uk/&ved=2ahUKEwjQ65_7_tX4AhWMS0EAHcW5DcMQFnoECA8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2wNcRTJvzCtNF80H0U-1zF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Softvark Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 8 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said: I did look at that. But the only ones I can find in 7mm are by Aquitrain and they only do the more common coach types. Have a look at HMRS - they do blue grey coach lining transfers and the curved ends. https://hmrs.org.uk/br-coach-lining-up-to-including-blue-grey-period.html Julian 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold young37215 Posted July 1 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 1 14 hours ago, BoD said: Over the years I bought stock in preparation for my ‘retirement’ layout. Sadly I gave little thought to what I really needed and bought many things just because I liked them. In the case of coaching stock that was also tempered by what was available too. They say ignorance is bliss. I have, however, ended up with an imbalance of stock which yes, I could run but it wouldn’t be quite right. Do I just apply rule 1 while I seek to redress that imbalance? I don’t know. For similar reasons to those outlined above I have a handful of maroon mk1 second open coaches. I wonder how hard it would be to re-livery them and make a passable job of it. The disease of most modellers, we like something so we buy it and end up with more rolling stock than our layouts really need. I am currently looking at ways to increase the number of storage sidings on WHL4 for exactly the same reason. Based upon my recent experience of respraying a loco in just BR blue, I would not attempt to respray a coach in blue and grey. Too fiddly and time consuming by half plus I doubt that many of us would be capable of getting near the level of factory finish we are all used to. Trying to put a positive spin on BoD's position and given the way model prices have risen, I suspect that selling the maroon stock on Ebay will return at least what was paid. This leaves you free to re-invest the proceeds as you see fit in rolling stock that meets your current requirements. I know Ebay has its limitations and is expensive but my experience is that it is the best way I have found for exchanging rolling stock. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold young37215 Posted July 14 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 14 Doug popped over today with his new Accurascale Deltic 55001 to give it a run out. It seems a fine model and droned happily around WHL4 for a while reprising the return Oban to Edinburgh adexs that ran in the early 1980's which utilised the push pull Mk3 rolling stock usually found working between Edinburgh and Glasgow. St Paddy arrives at Crianlarich. 18 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold young37215 Posted July 15 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 15 Continuing south, St Paddy arrives at Ardlui 12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ISW Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 On 14/07/2022 at 14:13, young37215 said: new Accurascale Deltic 55001 to give it a run out. It seems a fine model and droned happily around WHL4 for a while reprising the return Oban to Edinburgh adexs that ran in the early 1980's which utilised the push pull Mk3 rolling stock usually found working between Edinburgh and Glasgow. Rob, And it doesn't look 'out of place' at all. Great stuff. Ian 1 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold young37215 Posted July 17 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 17 In between operations I have been looking at outstanding work on passenger rolling stock. I had previously detailed one of my two Hornby BSO's and finally got around to doing the second. The coach comes apart quite easily although the retaining lugs that secure the bodyshell to the chassis are very brittle and snap easily. Fortunately this does not cause too many issues when fitting everything back together. The detailing is very simple, I paint the table tops to break up the factory finished single colour and add a few passengers. Once paint and glue is dry the coach is put back together and rejoins the fleet as part of an Oban rake. I have one more TSO to renumber and detail before adding this as an SK replacement. I had hoped to find a couple more TSO's to replace SK's and was watching an Ebay auction of 5 blue and grey coaches that included 3 TSO's which ended yesterday in the hope that I might sneak a late bid. When the price for the 5 reached £225 I decided that I would wait for another opportunity. Untouched internal Table tops painted Passengers added Completed coach Coach is returned to the layout 14 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billywhizz Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 Hi Rob. Makes such a difference just by adding some passengers and repainting the table tops. When renumbering Hornby MK1’s, What method do you use to remove the original numbers without damaging the blue underneath? Cheers, Bill. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BoD Posted July 17 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 17 11 hours ago, young37215 said: When the price for the 5 reached £225 I decided that I would wait for another opportunity. Strewth. That’s silly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ISW Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 25 minutes ago, BoD said: 11 hours ago, young37215 said: When the price for the 5 reached £225 I decided that I would wait for another opportunity. Strewth. That’s silly. No kidding! I recently paid just £25 on eBay for a Hornby Mk1 BSO in blue/grey, so 5 would have been circa £125 not £225. Someone was sure desperate for those particular coaches. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold young37215 Posted July 18 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18 The price of models in general is crazy at present, I guess that like so many things model stocks are in short supply given the disruption caused by Covid. ISW has done well to pick up the Hornby BSO, I have been looking out for one for a while but have not seen any appear on Ebay. 21 hours ago, billywhizz said: Hi Rob. Makes such a difference just by adding some passengers and repainting the table tops. When renumbering Hornby MK1’s, What method do you use to remove the original numbers without damaging the blue underneath? Cheers, Bill. It was a while ago that I renumbered my two BSO's meaning I can't be certain about how I removed the printed number. However I have only ever used T Cut or IPA for transfer removal so it will have been one of the two. What I do recall is how thin the Hornby paint is and that I managed to removed some of it despite what I thought was careful rubbing of the number. You have been warned... The hot weather means I am spending time indoors in an effort to keep cool. Ironically the loft is one of the coolest places in the house when all the windows are open and the blinds closed hence why I have been working on the layout. Like others I have a habit of buying too much rolling stock which has left me with a shortage of siding space. The main fiddle yard was largely as built 5 years ago and had potential for an additional run round loop and extra sidings. I have added a 14th loop and managed to create and extend other sidings creating a total of 4000 mm of extra storage. Put another way that is space for about 28 OAA/OBA sized wagons or 10 coaches, my challenge is to use the space for existing rolling stock rather than see it as an opportunity to buy more!. Before changes With changes, the control panel has been moved and an extra loop installed using the 3 way point and a double slip. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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