Third-Rail EMU Photos

[adb968008]

On 21/05/2022 at 19:20, 313201 said:

If I may ask please, what was the unit photographed at clapham converted into

Front end mods (gangway removal), new lights, led destination display on one side etc

 

 

(The typical York unit frontend that evolved into classes 150/ 317/318/455, plus 210/316/457 prototypes).

 

 

 

you can see similarities and evolution here… pep and with headcode panel space

 

cleanedup roof..

 

which propogated…

 

i’m surprised Bachmann hasnt taken advantage of its class 150/2 tooling ….

Edited July 30, 2023 by adb968008

[John M Upton]

1 hour ago, Grizz said:

Number 1 son informs me that the 313s have had a reprieve for a bit….possibly December….he has inside info as he is depot based.

 

General knowledge now that the December timetable change should see them finally go with a farewell rail tour planned as per the 455's.

 

377163 and 377164 have already arrived back from South Eastern with the 23 377/5's to follow in a rather complicated cascade involving these, 465's, 707's and ultimately at the top of the pyramid over on SWR, the 701's (assuming they ever work out how to get them to work that is...)

[phil_sutters]

20 hours ago, adb968008 said:

4 more class 455’s off to Newport next week, Monday and Wednesday 1038 off Stewarts Lane.

 

Monday

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K03592/2022-05-30/detailed

Wednesday

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K03592/2022-06-01/detailed

Sitting on death row last Friday. I chose to divert eastwards from Portsmouth via Three Bridges as an 'operational incident' had caused my direct West Coastway train to be cancelled. Hence a stop at Horsham. It worked out well with many less stops, quick connections and a change of scenery - especially nice around Pulborough.

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by phil_sutters

[Southernman46]

21 hours ago, adb968008 said:

4 more class 455’s off to Newport next week, Monday and Wednesday 1038 off Stewarts Lane.

 

Monday

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K03592/2022-05-30/detailed

Wednesday

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K03592/2022-06-01/detailed

As it was for the 4-SUB's so it is for their replacements ...................................

[phil_sutters]

A brief stop at Lancing to get a couple of bits from Morris' Models, so a couple of snaps of usual Coastway fare.

Edited May 29, 2022 by phil_sutters

[Gwiwer]

8 hours ago, John M Upton said:

 

General knowledge now that the December timetable change should see them finally go with a farewell rail tour planned as per the 455's.

 

377163 and 377164 have already arrived back from South Eastern with the 23 377/5's to follow in a rather complicated cascade involving these, 465's, 707's and ultimately at the top of the pyramid over on SWR, the 701's (assuming they ever work out how to get them to work that is...)

Latest unofficial update on the 701s.  

 

We haven't a clue what might be used to run the Shepperton services after August.  The 707s have to leave.  Internally there have been emails stating that a way must be found to get 701s into service by then.  

 

Not a single driver has commenced training.  No platform staff and so far as we know no depot staff either have received any training or briefing on them.  They will require all-new skills and techniques if they are to be brought into traffic as planned effectively in driver-only mode but with a safety-critical person (called the Guard) still on the back.  

 

We understand that the issues with the cab configuration have been resolved to the satisfaction of all parties but that fault-free mileage accumulation and software reliabilty is nowhere near what it needs to be.  There are now also said to be other issues with most of those delivered so far.  

 

SWR is already obliged to run main-line 450s on suburban trains; they have been on Reading and some Windsor and Hounslow services for quite some time.  Since the May timetable change they have gained duties to Woking (stopping services), Chessington South and the Guildford "New Line" via Cobham.  They delay the service; doors are slower to open and the internal layout is not conducive to high-volume suburban traffic levels.  They have been found because the first batch of 455s has gone to store or scrap, the 456s are all off-lease and certain main-line duties have been reduced from 12 to 8-car and from 8-car 450 to 5-car 444.  More cannot be squeezed out of that pot without cutting trains out of the timetable.  Ever-rising traffic levels mitigate against that.  

 

My Southern colleagues are still expecting the 377/3s to be shunted off to the Sussex Coast at some point to replace 313/2s one-for-one but using four-car units would be more sensible.  Especially if there is to be no return to the previous timetables in the near future.  A three-car train into Brighton every half-hour is becoming a joke now; it was more than enough during the pandemic but the previous six-trains-an-hour service could usefully be brought back with today's traffic levels.  

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Gwiwer

[John M Upton]

Well, we have some 455's going spare if SWR are desperate, only three previous owners, buyer collects but hurry, they are going fast....

[Gwiwer]

2 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Well, we have some 455's going spare if SWR are desperate, only three previous owners, buyer collects but hurry, they are going fast....

They don't play nicely with the red ones though.  Different traction kit these days.  

[adb968008]

Can the 456’s come back ?

[Gwiwer]

20 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Can the 456’s come back ?

I very much doubt it. Some have already been broken up. Some are stripped. 
 

They could usefully boost 8-car trains back up to 10-car though it is admitted now that the Waterloo 10-car scheme couldn’t ever have coped with trains that long every 3-4 minutes. 
 

 

[DY444]

2 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

They don't play nicely with the red ones though.  Different traction kit these days.  

 

The traction kit isn't the reason.  Whilst the SWT 455s re-tractioning programme was in progress,  modified units worked in multiple with unmodified units for quite a while.  It's other stuff like the door controls, CIS etc which would need altering.  

[phil-b259]

7 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Latest unofficial update on the 701s.  

 

We haven't a clue what might be used to run the Shepperton services after August.  The 707s have to leave.  Internally there have been emails stating that a way must be found to get 701s into service by then.  

 

Not a single driver has commenced training.  No platform staff and so far as we know no depot staff either have received any training or briefing on them.  They will require all-new skills and techniques if they are to be brought into traffic as planned effectively in driver-only mode but with a safety-critical person (called the Guard) still on the back.  

 

We understand that the issues with the cab configuration have been resolved to the satisfaction of all parties but that fault-free mileage accumulation and software reliabilty is nowhere near what it needs to be.  There are now also said to be other issues with most of those delivered so far.  

 

SWR is already obliged to run main-line 450s on suburban trains; they have been on Reading and some Windsor and Hounslow services for quite some time.  Since the May timetable change they have gained duties to Woking (stopping services), Chessington South and the Guildford "New Line" via Cobham.  They delay the service; doors are slower to open and the internal layout is not conducive to high-volume suburban traffic levels.  They have been found because the first batch of 455s has gone to store or scrap, the 456s are all off-lease and certain main-line duties have been reduced from 12 to 8-car and from 8-car 450 to 5-car 444.  More cannot be squeezed out of that pot without cutting trains out of the timetable.  Ever-rising traffic levels mitigate against that.  

 

My Southern colleagues are still expecting the 377/3s to be shunted off to the Sussex Coast at some point to replace 313/2s one-for-one but using four-car units would be more sensible.  Especially if there is to be no return to the previous timetables in the near future.  A three-car train into Brighton every half-hour is becoming a joke now; it was more than enough during the pandemic but the previous six-trains-an-hour service could usefully be brought back with today's traffic levels.  

 

 

I'm sure the 'men / women from the ministry know what they are doing....... oh is that a flying porky I spy...

 

(For the uninformed - don't kid yourself, the 455s / 456s being sent for scrap ASAP is all part of the 'cuts package' HM Treasury is enforcing on all parts of the railway to 'compensate for all the money they shovelled into it during the Pandemic)

Edited May 29, 2022 by phil-b259

[adb968008]

On 29/05/2022 at 19:38, phil-b259 said:

 

I'm sure the 'men / women from the ministry know what they are doing....... oh is that a flying porcupine I spy...

 

(For the uninformed - don't kid yourself, the 455s / 456s being sent for scrap ASAP is all part of the 'cuts package' HM Treasury is enforcing on all parts of the railway to 'compensate for all the money they shovelled into it during the Pandemic

tactic admission that we cant afford life as it used to be, before Austerity, Brexit and Covid, despite the likelihood that all that debt will be shovelled off into multi-decades of long term finance.. short and medium term we are still broke too.

However waste is still among us…

I just returned home today on a Victoria to Sutton express… 10 coaches. (2x class 377/7)…  2 stops.. Clapham and Carshalton… empty train, wizzed past Balham, both Mitchams and Hackbridge… no wonder I had a full 5 car set entirely to myself, and perhaps a handful in the other set.

 

I have to wonder what was behind this regular express service today, not that i’m complaining, it was running well early, but cant be good for revenue skipping out most of the stops on a short shuttle like this.

 

some pictures of Sutton..not today.

Wall of Death to the right… 1 in 44.. and a 90 degree curve thrown in. For the Ghost in the machine thread, just behind the 377 at ground level is a concrete LBSC sign proclaiming Portsmouth to the left and Sidings to the right… the sidings long since removed in the 1930’s for the construction of the Wimbledon line. It was uncovered during recent tree cutting. Theres another one at the junction of the wimbledon and sutton lines at Streatham South jn

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by adb968008

[Southernman46]

5 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

SWR is already obliged to run main-line 450s on suburban trains; 

 

They delay the service; doors are slower to open

 

Oh! Dear God - take it from a regular traveller - this is by far and away the most irritating aspect ....................................... especially when coupled with "new" guards

[Northmoor]

710 276 creeps round the curve off the viaduct into Bushey with a Watford Junction-Euston service, 28/5/22.

 

 

How long that 4th rail lain redundant now?

[Nearholmer]

I’m not sure of the situation nowadays, but back when Bakerloo Line services ceased to run north of Harrow, LM Region got all enthusiastic and started whipping the fourth rail out. Trouble is, they’d forgotten that it was vital to keeping the resistance of the negative circuit within acceptable limits (it was bonded to the running rails), and that by removing it some short-circuit conditions couldn’t be detected by the circuit breakers. So, when what was going on was spotted, it had to be reconnected, and in some places renewed altogether IIRC. So, it might have been redundant in one sense, but not in another.

 

I can tell several other tales about how LM lost the plot a bit on managing the “DC Lines” at that period.

 

(nice train, shame about the shrubbery)

[DY444]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

However waste is still among us…

 

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

tactic admission that we cant afford life as it used to be, before Austerity, Brexit and Covid, despite the likelihood that all that debt will be shovelled off into multi-decades of long term finance.. short and medium term we are still broke too.

However waste is still among us…

I just returned home today on a Victoria to Sutton express… 10 coaches. (2x class 377/7)…  2 stops.. Clapham and Carshalton… empty train, wizzed past Balham, both Mitchams and Hackbridge… no wonder I had a full 5 car set entirely to myself, and perhaps a handful in the other set.

 

I have to wonder what was behind this regular express service today, not that i’m complaining, it was running well early, but cant be good for revenue skipping out most of the stops on a short shuttle like this.

 

 

They've just withdrawn 46 x 4 car units, which is conspicuously more than most operators.  It seems to me you're only going to be happy when every train has its length tailored to the number of passengers on offer.  I travelled on an Epsom - London Bridge service just after the morning peak last Wednesday, 10 cars and very well filled; 8 cars would have just sufficed but 10 wasn't a massive over provision.  The return working had very few passengers.  How do you know the train you travelled on didn't have high loadings earlier in its diagram or would have later?  Short answer is you don't. 

 

The metro timetable has been cut, some circuits have had their length reduced (eg LB - East Croydon from 8 to 5), others have not however once the 377/3s go down to the coast I'm expecting 10 car diagrams to be few and far between and metro to be predominantly 4, 5 and 8.  I also expect overcrowding on the busier sections (eg inbound via Norbury and via Crystal Palace). 

 

I saw a report the other day that TfL thinking had been the Elizabeth line would be at full load 2 - 3 years after opening but due to Covid et al that had been revised to 3 - 5 years.  I also saw a report that forecast demand for London office space had been revised up.  That suggests to me a potential rising trajectory for peak passenger numbers in the next decade and decisions taken in haste now about stock requirements could come back to haunt the railway in future.   

Edited May 30, 2022 by DY444

[adb968008]

14 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

 

They've just withdrawn 46 x 4 car units, which is conspicuously more than most operators.  It seems to me you're only going to be happy when every train has its length tailored to the number of passengers on offer.  I travelled on an Epsom - London Bridge service just after the morning peak last Wednesday, 10 cars and very well filled; 8 cars would have just sufficed but 10 wasn't a massive over provision.  The return working had very few passengers.  How do you know the train you travelled on didn't have high loadings earlier in its diagram or would have later?  Short answer is you don't. 

 

The metro timetable has been cut, some circuits have had their length reduced (eg LB - East Croydon from 8 to 5), others have not however once the 377/3s go down to the coast I'm expecting 10 car diagrams to be few and far between and metro to be predominantly 4, 5 and 8.  I also expect overcrowding on the busier sections (eg inbound via Norbury and via Crystal Palace). 

 

I saw a report the other day that TfL thinking had been the Elizabeth line would be at full load 2 - 3 years after opening but due to Covid et al that had been revised to 3 - 5 years.  I also saw a report that forecast demand for London office space had been revised up.  That suggests to me a potential rising trajectory for peak passenger numbers in the next decade and decisions taken in haste now about stock requirements could come back to haunt the railway in future.   

Totally missed the target.

 

Do you think more passengers would have travelled, if it had stopped at more stations ?

 

Running an express Metro to Sutton, on a sunday, that ignores Battersea Park, Wandsworth Town, Balham, Mitcham Eastfields, Mitcham Junction and Hackbridge…

 

or inversely, from Victoria, only stopped at Clapham, Carshalton before terminating at Sutton, all day long… every 20 mins or so was a good use of resources ?

 

especially when Thameslink wasnt working either reducing some of those stations to a 30 minute service, and the wimbledon loop saw no service at all… whilst the “express” spent 5-7 minutes waiting at Carshalton or settled for a very sedate trundle around the burbs with a scenic stop at Streatham N jn incline to waiting for time to catch up to its planned departure.

You can run a train to schedule, but if it doesnt stop to pick up passengers, you shouldn't be surprised if its empty, when it arrives.

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by adb968008

[John M Upton]

Friday's and weekends are pretty much full and standing throughout along the Sussex Coast at the moment even with the reinstatement of the Brighton trains beyond Chichester.

 

I think we were all hoping that the 313 replacements would be proper four car 377's but if it is to be the one toilet 377/3's then that isn't going to help very much.

 

I reckon the whole working from home thing will very rapidly disappear soon enough, many companies have started to realise that some of their employees may not be working as much as they thought they were....

Edited May 30, 2022 by John M Upton

[phil_sutters]

A couple more from the Portsmouth trip. The further 444 in the first photo was difficult to decipher so it might not be 012

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by phil_sutters

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, John M Upton said:

Friday's and weekends are pretty much full and standing throughout along the Sussex Coast at the moment even with the reinstatement of the Brighton trains beyond Chichester.

 

I think we were all hoping that the 313 replacements would be proper four car 377's but if it is to be the one toilet 377/3's then that isn't going to help very much.

 

I reckon the whole working from home thing will very rapidly disappear soon enough, many companies have started to realise that some of their employees may not be working as much as they thought they were....

 

Actually studies into productivity have shown that its not been hit - and in some cases its increased since more people are WFH

 

The main difference now with WFH and the pre-Pandemic situation is before Covid, most firms IT systems were simply not up to the task of enabling WFH on a large scale - and the likes of Zoom, etc were niche products looked upon with suspicion. The Lockdowns forced firms to invest significantly in their IT systems and as such WFH not nearly the problem it once was.

 

Of course WFH has a negative effect on small traders such as dry cleaners, sandwich shops, etc as well as commuter revenue so HM Treasury is doing its level best to push people back into the office (with the likes of Ress-Mog still pedalling the lie that just because someone is sat at their desk in an office block they are magically more productive) and no doubt is applying plenty of pressure to their mates in the City to do the same - but the reality is WFH on a large scale is here to stay.

 

What has been observed is a 'new normal' developing where people WFH Monday and Friday and commute on the middle 3 days. Reports from some 'after work' socialising venues back this up in that Thursday is becoming the new Friday as regards customer numbers...

[John M Upton]

First picture I think you mean 450, not 444 otherwise it would be a 15 car formation, every substation on the region would be tripping and the ECO would be fuming...

[phil_sutters]

5 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

First picture I think you mean 450, not 444 otherwise it would be a 15 car formation, every substation on the region would be tripping and the ECO would be fuming...

Thanks for the correction - my ignorance  --    and eyesight not able to read numbers at 100m+ distance! Now corrected

Edited May 30, 2022 by phil_sutters

[Nearholmer]

WFH anecdote: my good lady and her team have decided to adopt it as ‘new normal’. Their productivity never dipped, and they are able to interact just as effectively as in the office. They meet ‘in reality’ most Tuesdays, and have a semi-work, semi-social  picnic once a month in decent weather. Won’t affect train commuting, because she can cycle to the office inside 15 minutes, but I’d wager that there are many who have found similar.

[adb968008]

On 30/05/2022 at 17:09, phil-b259 said:

 

Actually studies into productivity have shown that its not been hit - and in some cases its increased since more people are WFH

 

So this borderline my day job so i’ll post carefully.

I work in software that monitors several 10ks of thousands of servers in Data Centres, Colos, Cloud etc, globally, for dozens of companies, in dozens of countries in all manner of industries. That IT can be physical, virtual or cloud.

 

In April 2020 I was fascinated to see if there was any trends before and after lockdown. So at high level analysis of that entirety I was expecting to see wild swings, with some IT trending up, others crashing down and wild variations of daily usage. The expectation was a white paper for marketing and publication.

 

I compared it against December, February, March. The sad conclusion was nothing happened. IT continued as it did before. There was a slight spike on Sunday evenings, a slight down on friday afternoons. Compute, Network, Storage etc were unaffected.

I did try some macros (Geographies, Days of week, industry sectors even applications themselves). In short IT continued as normal at the workplace, but maybe people knocked off early in a friday and checked mails on a sunday.

 

Certainly there would be trends in domestic network traffic, home entertainment networks, home delivery companies etc, but the average workplace was largely unaffected. Sadly our company saw no value in a document that says nothing happened, so I remain anonymous and the desert island has to wait., but the analysis definitely exists to back it up. I would argue I have access to one of the larger non-biased, vendor neutral data sets from a panopoly selection of IT, geography and industry selections out there, that is purposed design to track such usage.

 

It was however a great icebreaker in opening new customer conversations, so it was valuable to me.

 

now to just ever so slightly keep this thread relevent…

here is a lockdown, socially distanced forest walk near Merstham tunnel at Hooley…

 

an empty 700 making a 4 car 377 look small.

 

 

That drain pipe is a secret weapon aiming to plop an innocent passing 700
 

 

and another 700 saying boo to the M25…

and a 455 wonders “Are we are related ?” Looking at the 73 next to it..South Croydon.

 

73 is on the SO regular 1Q69 Tonbridge to Derby via South Croydon and onwards via a magical mystery tour of Surrey that takes about 3 hours to reach Victoria or Kensington from South Croydon.
 

Various dates June 2020.

Edited July 30, 2023 by adb968008