When TT3 was the next Big Thing

[detheridge]

The 0-6-0 chassis had its own motor of dinky dimensions. I would think with the extra space inside a J50 and the weight of the white metal body, it was thought something a bit beefier was advisable. I imagine the result is almost unstoppable.

 

K's motors are much maligned. All the examples I have run very smoothly. The HP2M is possibly an exception. I have one somewhere, which appears to run OK, but i have never fitted it to anything. I believe latterly they supplied it in all their kits, but would think it would struggle with one of their larger locomotives.

For info, the 3mm society once had a member who supplied 5 pole versions of the small TT motor. I have a couple of these and they are truly magnificent. They're no longer available as the person who produced them passed away some decades ago.

IIRC, Model Railways in Cyril Freezer's time had details of folks who could provide 5 and even 7 pole armatures for standard motors circa 1980 or thereabouts.

[Pacific231G]

A nice little handbook worth having is this one by mike Bryant.

 

 

Brit15

 

Definitely!  I had this book when I was trying to work in TT-3 as a youngster. I got hold of a copy of it a few years ago and it is still very interesting

What I did find frustrating about the handbook back in the early 1960s was the lack of information, particularly a trackplan,about Mike Bryant's own TT-3 layout even though it appeared in several photos in the book. What I didn't know then, and rather wish I had, was that the layout had been the subject of a series of five articles "A Large Quart in a Small Pint Pot" in MRC in 1958. In these he gave blow by blow instructions for building his 4ft x 2ft layout which consisted of an oval with a return loop and a high level terminus. It would have been - unwieldy in 00 but very manageable in TT and had I seen it at the time I think it would probably have suited me rather well. Even for a beginner the articles along with the handbook would have been enough to get a really good start in the hobby. 

 

This was Model Railway Constructor Handbook No.1 so did they publish others?

 

As for Minories, though I think Cyril Freezer had been playing around with the plan for a while, he first published it in the April 1957 Railway Modeller specifically to demonstrate the potential of  TT-3 scale by fitting a complete double track city terminus into a five foot long folding layout. Though his description didn't actually say that, Minories appeared only a month after RM's coverage of the launch of TT-3.  Peco (and Gem) had been working with Rovex to launch their own 12mm gauge trackwork at the same time.

 

Apart from a selection of goods wagons,  the first rolling stock offered by Tri-ang was the LMR 0-6-0T "Jinty and a couple of suburban coaches. Main line stock was still a few months away but, if you were prepared to accept the Jinty as representing a suburban passenger tank loco, the operating pattern of Minories did lend itself to using that stock for a far more intensive operation than a typical branch line terminus in the same space. It was also a lot more manageable than the 10ft x 8ft plan based on Bristol Temple Meads that Cyril; Freezer drew up for the launch articles in the March edition. According to these, Sydney Pritchard had been experimenting with TT for some time. The article "TT is Here!", whch I suspect that Pritchard may have had a hand in writing, goes into the same justification for using an oversize scale for the gauge for Briitish rolling stock so familiar from OO "We believe that our more experienced readers are fully aware that it is essential to use wheels with overscale treads and flanges if succesful running is to be achieved."  

 

The March 1957 article does also refer to "TT-25" in showing a selection of the American locomotives produced by H.P. Products Inc.The 2.5mm/ft description of the scale would not of course have been used either by all imperial America or all metric Europe and 1/10 inch to the foot or just 1:120 is just as simple (and to be strictly accurate it should be 2.54mm/ft) .    

Edited August 6, 2017 by Pacific231G

[Il Grifone]

Apparently the TT motor is an XT.60 and has a single start worm. The same motor was used in the 'Singles', but with a two start worm and a different coding. I.ve never found a number for the TT 'Jinty' motor. (I'll keep looking!)

 

Confusingly X.03 is the code for the predecessor of the X.04 (less oil retaining pads) and also the later Hornby version with a coarse (and rubbish IMHO) plastic gear instead of a proper metal one. Tri-ang used two brass gears, but, for less wear (not really a problem in a model), it is preferable to use steel and brass. (The greatest wear occurs with materials of the same hardness in contact.)

[Golden Fleece 30]

For info, the 3mm society once had a member who supplied 5 pole versions of the small TT motor. I have a couple of these and they are truly magnificent. They're no longer available as the person who produced them passed away some decades ago.

IIRC, Model Railways in Cyril Freezer's time had details of folks who could provide 5 and even 7 pole armatures for standard motors circa 1980 or thereabouts.

I came across one of these 5 pole armatures fitted to a second hand Castle recently which does run very nicely.

 

Garry

[Golden Fleece 30]

Seems to be one on Amazon Garry, used one for £2 + P/P

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Modelling-TT3-Mike-Bryant/dp/B071H98B3X/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

 

Brit15

Now ordered thank you.

 

Garry

[detheridge]

Apparently the TT motor is an XT.60 and has a single start worm. The same motor was used in the 'Singles', but with a two start worm and a different coding. I.ve never found a number for the TT 'Jinty' motor. (I'll keep looking!)

 

Confusingly X.03 is the code for the predecessor of the X.04 (less oil retaining pads) and also the later Hornby version with a coarse (and rubbish IMHO) plastic gear instead of a proper metal one. Tri-ang used two brass gears, but, for less wear (not really a problem in a model), it is preferable to use steel and brass. (The greatest wear occurs with materials of the same hardness in contact.)

 

Hi Il Grifone,

Here are some Triang service sheets.

As you can see the XT60 is labelled 'TT motor' and obviously the small (standard?) motor is a totally different beast.

On the T90 service sheet, Triang list all the part numbers of the motor, but don't give a label for the motor itself!

 

Regards,

David.

[TT3]

Had a lovely day today meeting and making friends with a member then being able to obtain these items. 3 of these locos, Royal Scot, whitemetal BEC Brush 4 and WR King, I had not got so really pleased that now I think I only require an LNWR 4-6-0 to have a full set of kit locos from the "good old days" while Tri-ang TT was still alive and kicking.  The track is very nice but as it is slightly different to Peco with sleeper spacing I will be using it in the goods yard and fiddle yard.

 

Garry

That GEM flexitrack is an excellent find, it is comparable enough with PECO but has the advantage that it will accommodate the deeper flanges on some locos. Flange depth increased with the open spoke wheels particularly on the Brit,

 

On the first TT layout I had, it still had GEM track from 1970 which worked just fine. Also it gives a decent period look to the layout.

[Golden Fleece 30]

That GEM flexitrack is an excellent find, it is comparable enough with PECO but has the advantage that it will accommodate the deeper flanges on some locos. Flange depth increased with the open spoke wheels particularly on the Brit,

 

On the first TT layout I had, it still had GEM track from 1970 which worked just fine. Also it gives a decent period look to the layout.

There were 69 full lengths(some an odd inch shorter) with 25 brand new still with card inserts of GEM track.

 

There is a slight issue with it compared to Peco that 1) the rail top is higher (if you watch carefully on the videos I have done the rail used is slightly larger and the wheels will jump), 2), The base of the rail is lower and wider therefore will not accept the finescale fishplates, 3) the sleeper spacing is not the same.

 

I agree it looks really nice but will be used only in the loco/goods yards and fiddle yard. If I was not using the Peco points then this would have been fine for the main layout.

 

I have not tried every loco I have across the point work but have not come across any issues yet even using a Standard V with open spoked wheels.  I will say that gently pushing a loco for test I can possibly feel the chairs being touched but the same loco has run across them without issues as such.  The hardest point to do is the curved one on the inner curve where a little material needed to be ground away on the running rails at the frog section due to the length of the tighter part which does not happen on the other points, or the outer curve.

 

Garry

Edited August 7, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30

[detheridge]

..And here are more TT service sheets for those who may need them for servicing/restoration.

[whart57]

TT is still big in certain circles especially since the 3mm society formed but I am not a member and prefer to be a "loner" ................

 

That "loner" description probably applies to three quarters of the 3mm Society's membership. You may find access to the Society's bits and pieces useful and no-one will try to evangelise you.

 

Wim

[whart57]

For info, the 3mm society once had a member who supplied 5 pole versions of the small TT motor. I have a couple of these and they are truly magnificent. They're no longer available as the person who produced them passed away some decades ago.

IIRC, Model Railways in Cyril Freezer's time had details of folks who could provide 5 and even 7 pole armatures for standard motors circa 1980 or thereabouts.

 

The 3mm Society also had modern rare earth metal magnets made to replace the old Triang ones. I'm told they're like putting Grandpa on steroids

 

Wim

[Golden Fleece 30]

The 3mm Society also had modern rare earth metal magnets made to replace the old Triang ones. I'm told they're like putting Grandpa on steroids

 

Wim

There are a few issues with Neo magnets and I have first hand experience of some.

1) They can be too strong and pull the armature off centre resulting in wear in the bearings, especially the magnet end.

2) Coating has been known to come off and I have seen photos of this wrapped around the armature.  Photo not of my loco.

3) Magnets can have parts chip/fall off in use - personnel experience, photo of one of mine

4) Magnets can split - personnel experience, photo of one of mine

5) Can pull off adjacent stock if made from tinplate - personnel experience in 00

 

I do know a lot of people swear by them but on the other hand a lot of people swear about them.  It is all an individual choice, but, you don't have to be in the 3mm society to obtain them.

Ideally just a remag is all that is needed and old Tri-ang magnets are some of the best to start with.

 

Garry

[Golden Fleece 30]

That "loner" description probably applies to three quarters of the 3mm Society's membership. You may find access to the Society's bits and pieces useful and no-one will try to evangelise you.

 

Wim

I am not too sure about this as I have heard from a couple of people about certain issues/statements made.

1) One person who is in the 3mm society stated that he was not allowed to buy any spares as it was thought he was a dealer and selling them on for profit.

2) Another person stated that when at a large show (I think he said Warley) he was told by the people on the 3mm stand that Tri-ang was no good, out of scale and he should forget about it and be looking at doing the finescale side of 3mm.

 

Without Tri-ang TT, the 3mm society I doubt would have ever existed.

 

Garry

[Dava]

I was a member of the 3mm Society back in the late 1970s and without Triang TT Gauge it woul indeed have been a tiny minority of scale modellers. A lot more kit building started to come through after that. I suspect now it's a bit like the Gauge 0 Guild and Hornby tinplate gauge 0; some diehard devotees and others seeing it as archaic toy trains.

 

I do have a collection of TT which I may catalogue for sale this summer if I have time. This worked well with most of my 009 items recently. However I'd be interested in selling as one lot. It does contain some 'desirable' items as well as fine scale wagons etc .

 

Dava

[whart57]

I am not too sure about this as I have heard from a couple of people about certain issues/statements made.

1) One person who is in the 3mm society stated that he was not allowed to buy any spares as it was thought he was a dealer and selling them on for profit.

2) Another person stated that when at a large show (I think he said Warley) he was told by the people on the 3mm stand that Tri-ang was no good, out of scale and he should forget about it and be looking at doing the finescale side of 3mm.

 

Without Tri-ang TT, the 3mm society I doubt would have ever existed.

 

Garry

 

Was the guy a dealer? It is true that the Society has on one or two occasions refused to sell to an individual who they suspect is acting either as a dealer or as a front for a group of modellers. Terry Smallpiece and the others who built up the Society's stock of spares in the 60s and 70s by going round model shops and buying up what they found on dusty shelves were adamant they did this as a service to members and not as a business opportunity, and the present custodians of the secondhand and spares stock continue to respect that attitude.

 

As for the other comment, what was the context? I was Chairman of the Society for seven years and I regularly had people try to tell me that Triang was the future. Really? Triang TT is 60 year old technology, it was good for the time - it was VERY good for the time - but it is not the future. Even if it does continue to give a lot of people pleasure now.

 

And without Triang TT there would be no 3mm scale, never mind no 3mm Society.

 

Wim

[Golden Fleece 30]

Was the guy a dealer? It is true that the Society has on one or two occasions refused to sell to an individual who they suspect is acting either as a dealer or as a front for a group of modellers. Terry Smallpiece and the others who built up the Society's stock of spares in the 60s and 70s by going round model shops and buying up what they found on dusty shelves were adamant they did this as a service to members and not as a business opportunity, and the present custodians of the secondhand and spares stock continue to respect that attitude.

 

As for the other comment, what was the context? I was Chairman of the Society for seven years and I regularly had people try to tell me that Triang was the future. Really? Triang TT is 60 year old technology, it was good for the time - it was VERY good for the time - but it is not the future. Even if it does continue to give a lot of people pleasure now.

 

And without Triang TT there would be no 3mm scale, never mind no 3mm Society.

 

Wim

As for being a dealer, I have no idea and have never seen him offer anything but that is not to say he does not have a different ID to do it.  It is all he has told me.

 

The other comment was repeated from what was written on a Forum page a few months ago.  He never said Tri-ang was the future, (neither have I), but that was just his interest as is mine.  He was quite annoyed to be told that Tri-ang TT was not the option to go with and I would feel the same as we are all individuals doing our own thing.

 

With me I like my Tri-ang but do make kits up, have made my own etched kits for something different, will use modern Peco track for Tri-ang loco wheels  etc.  I am not adverse to making something newer and have a 3mm K2 and Standard 2 tank bought privately but predominantly Tri-ang like my 9F, N7 and 2P tank.

 

Garry

Edited August 7, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30

[whart57]

The other comment was repeated from what was written on a Forum page a few months ago.  He never said Tri-ang was the future, (neither have I), but that was just his interest as is mine.  He was quite annoyed to be told that Tri-ang TT was not the option to go with and I would feel the same as we are all individuals doing our own thing.

 

 

As I said, it depends on the context of the question being asked. If someone goes to the 3mm Society stand at Warley or some other show as a new modeller or is thinking of 3mm scale after experience of other scales then it would be wrong of the Society's representatives to give the impression that starting with an old Triang set would be the way to go. There are sound technical reasons - track and wheel standards, quality of product by modern standards - why that would be starting in the wrong place. Now that is not to say Triang doesn't work, nor that there isn't a strong nostalgic feeling about Triang. Due to 3mm scale's particular history it is easier and cheaper to recreate a nostalgic 1960s layout (which after all is the childhood era of a heck of a lot of us) using Triang TT material than it is with Hornby Dublo say. But the Society has to advise people on how to butcher a PECO HOm point to allow Triang wheels to pass unimpeded, is that advice you'd really want to be giving a newbie?

 

Wim

[Golden Fleece 30]

Wim, I appreciate what you are saying but as far as I know he was not a newbie but was only really interested in Tri-ang and to be told it was no good as such, which gave him the impression the society did not respect it and tried to push it under the table, was not the way to attract a possible new member. Sorry to say but I would have given them a right mouthful if they tried to demean Tri-ang to me.

 

I have read that "butchering" Peco points is not necessary as the loco wheels can be pushed out on their axles but that is not for me, I will "modify" a point.

 

There are a few Tri-ang TT layouts I have seen on the Internet and one I helped operate at Shildon recently, plus my loose lay one with Type A track that all work fine so why those representatives should say it is no good is beyond me. Mine even had odd locos fitted with modern Romford/Jackson bogie wheels.

 

Regarding your comment on comparing Tri-ang TT to Hornby Dublo I have noticed since I resurrected my TT last year that the prices have shot up to be on a par with a lot of Dublo. In fact some deals Dublo is cheaper. Obviously there are some rarities in both camps but I have seen boxed TT blue and grey coaches go for more than the Dublo rare equivalent S/D Restaurant Car. Tri-ang TT signals sell for more than the Dublo ones, I know this as I am a Dublo enthusiast and modeller too, just look at some of my videos on YouTube.

 

Depending on your interpretation of the words "collector" or "modeller" I am a modeller. I am not into paying silly prices for items to just look at or keep in boxes hence I have no blue and grey coaches, blue diesel, signal gantries, goods shed etc.

 

Garry

 

PS I was recently given a few Mixed Traffic magazines and read through them with interest but did note on a few occasions how some members found it hard to put together some of the kits. But, I do appreciate there were a lot of nice looking locos completed but the difficulty of some kits, if correct, would put a few people off. I know I would not be buying any and I don't class myself as a novice. I do have a couple of kits and surprised how thin they are but it is each to their own and my preference is for thicker material for strength, look at my N7 kit.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30

[Il Grifone]

There are a few issues with Neo magnets and I have first hand experience of some.

1) They can be too strong and pull the armature off centre resulting in wear in the bearings, especially the magnet end.

2) Coating has been known to come off and I have seen photos of this wrapped around the armature.  Photo not of my loco.

3) Magnets can have parts chip/fall off in use - personnel experience, photo of one of mine

4) Magnets can split - personnel experience, photo of one of mine

5) Can pull off adjacent stock if made from tinplate - personnel experience in 00

 

I do know a lot of people swear by them but on the other hand a lot of people swear about them.  It is all an individual choice, but, you don't have to be in the 3mm society to obtain them.

Ideally just a remag is all that is needed and old Tri-ang magnets are some of the best to start with.

 

Garry

 

Ouch! I've never had that problem, but I do treat them with respect. I would agree that a full size magnet is too strong and use smaller magnets (6mm in pairs in series plus a couple of 3MA steel washers to fill the air gap (Some have needed four).remagnetising is probably the best solution but these seem to work well. Sticking a pair onto Tri-ang magnets has worked too with a couple of tired bogies.

 

I understood that Tri-ang invented TT-3. They certainly put it on the map just as Meccano did with Hornby Dublo. 00 did exist before (in a mass of argument as to scale etc., but Dublo set the parameters - still around today (Trix doesn't count - toy 0-4-0s and 7" coaches are fun, but not models IMHO.)

[whart57]

Wim, I appreciate what you are saying but as far as I know he was not a newbie but was only really interested in Tri-ang and to be told it was no good as such, which gave him the impression the society did not respect it and tried to push it under the table, was not the way to attract a possible new member. Sorry to say but I would have given them a right mouthful if they tried to demean Tri-ang to me.

 

 

Had someone on the stand done that in my day as Chairman I would have pointed out to them that Second Hand sales funds a lot of the newer stuff the Society produces. It's tricky, because on the other hand the Society does want to promote the scale as a viable option against 2mm FS and EM/P4. One of the challenges of being a Scale Society rather than a gauge society. Another of the challenges is having to maintain and support three wheel standards and the track gauges to match.

 

Wim

[whart57]

PS I was recently given a few Mixed Traffic magazines and read through them with interest but did note on a few occasions how some members found it hard to put together some of the kits. But, I do appreciate there were a lot of nice looking locos completed but the difficulty of some kits, if correct, would put a few people off.

 

I think I can guess the vintage of those MTs and the kit in question.

 

When etched brass first became popular there was an idea doing the rounds that all it took was a few clicks on the computer to rescale a kit from one scale to another. With a basic kit that works, with the more sophisticated kits that started appearing in the mid 90s on scaling up was OK, scaling down meant some parts become impossibly small and the more complex assemblies didn't fit. It was overlooked that an etched sheet has three dimensions and the thickness is a factor in how sharp folds can be and how well things like cab sides fit together. A quick and dirty solution is to use thinner metal when shooting down a 4mm or 7mm kit, which sort of works, but really the entire artwork needs review and test. Which is rarely done.

 

Wim

[Golden Fleece 30]

I think I can guess the vintage of those MTs and the kit in question.

 

When etched brass first became popular there was an idea doing the rounds that all it took was a few clicks on the computer to rescale a kit from one scale to another. With a basic kit that works, with the more sophisticated kits that started appearing in the mid 90s on scaling up was OK, scaling down meant some parts become impossibly small and the more complex assemblies didn't fit. It was overlooked that an etched sheet has three dimensions and the thickness is a factor in how sharp folds can be and how well things like cab sides fit together. A quick and dirty solution is to use thinner metal when shooting down a 4mm or 7mm kit, which sort of works, but really the entire artwork needs review and test. Which is rarely done.

 

Wim

My body kit is 0.4mm brass and the chassis kits 0.5mm nickel but with two pieces per side giving 1mm thick frames, one here for Tri-ang motor/wheels and one for Mashima motor.

 

Garry

[Robert Shrives]

Hi 

Having some of the etches can say look the part and  work well.  

 

I think that as a scale society we do a good job and cover a broadchurch and it depends on motivations and respect for others so really I can happily use my 12 foot Triang TT setup at shows and enjoy the finerscale Chipping Camden in my living room !  I have two stock boxes and quite a bit of the Triang stock runs - its just the couplings ! - now where have I heard that before!!

 

Postie today delivered a 3mm class 22 kit from Worsley Works and along with 3mm soc castings and a 3SMR motor bogie looks to be in the drop together class of kit.  

The future is 3mm of course  ( despite G1, Irish4mm, N and 2mm works in progress ! )

Robert     

[rodshaw]

The future is 3mm of course  ( despite G1, Irish4mm, N and 2mm works in progress ! )

Robert     

 

You mean it's the next big thing..?

[whart57]

My body kit is 0.4mm brass and the chassis kits 0.5mm nickel but with two pieces per side giving 1mm thick frames, one here for Tri-ang motor/wheels and one for Mashima motor.

 

Garry

Not a thin frame advocate then ;-)

 

I must say it looks a neat etch. However as N7's didn't run in Thailand I have no use for one.

 

Wim