Derailment at Paddington

[The Stationmaster]

Local government was similar too when I also managed to get out (2008) for basically similar health reasons. When I meet my younger ex-colleagues who are still in the service they say it's got even worse. If you want stuff to run safely those responsible for it need need adequate resources and a stable environment to work in. I daren't comment further as it would stray into the banned areas of political comments.

 

Not necessarily 'politics' in my view but more a matter of where NR puts its manpower resourcing and the payment (to people) part of that resourcing.  If you create a large top-heavy organisation with high salaries at the top end and what one source suggests as 3,000 people based centrally then you are bound to create cost, and moreover it is cost which is in many respects divorced from what the business should actually be doing.  Add in various other ethereal organisations such as RSSB which have no direct responsibility for the running of the railway but which assume roles they consider to be 'important' etc then you have an overall organisational recipe for putting the cost in the wrong place and potentially reducing costs in the wrong place.

 

Oddly in BR there was view often postulated at various levels that with a staff of 800 the BRB was over-staffed for what its role required of it - and it was concerned with both the running of trains and the infrastructure they ran on.  By the way I don't discount the fact that some work (e.g access planning and timetable planning) has been centralised on NR compared with BR however I do question the wisdom of that in view of some of the results we have in connection with temporary service changes for major infrastructure works on the former SR and allegations about difficulties securing possessions in connection with GWML electrification - I suspect some of those involved in timetable might be rather too far removed from the practicalities of what their work results in  (especially as the move to that organisational structure was pushed along by people with no practical experience whatsoever of timetable planning but, in one case, a considerable interest in what we used to call 'empire building').

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Paddington, two days ago. And this isn't platform 2.

 

[jim.snowdon]

Not a pretty sight, in any sense of the word.

 

Jim

[rodent279]

How far does a rail have to move out of gauge before a derailment is likely to occur? Put another way, how much movement from "standard gauge" is allowable, in a low speed terminus road like this. Understandably you'd want to permit less on a high speed main line, but on a road such as this, how much is allowed?

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Trouble is, if a track spreads it's uncontrollable and just "goes".

[Miss Prism]

 

How far does a rail have to move out of gauge before a derailment is likely to occur?

 

I'm not sure what an HST power car tyre width is these days, but for 5.5" tyre widths, a wheelset will remain fully supported if the gauge increases by 1". The wheelset will drop if the gauge increase rises to approx 3.75".

 

 

 

[Southernman46]

How far does a rail have to move out of gauge before a derailment is likely to occur? Put another way, how much movement from "standard gauge" is allowable, in a low speed terminus road like this. Understandably you'd want to permit less on a high speed main line, but on a road such as this, how much is allowed?

That is a variable number but at 1481mm it's time to block the line whether you want to or not .........................

[TheSignalEngineer]

So about 2" wide to gauge in old money

[The Stationmaster]

Trouble is, if a track spreads it's uncontrollable and just "goes".

 

That is exactly the point of course.  If it's moving underload then it's going to keep moving and any cut-price fixes are exactly that - cut price fixes and not answers to the problem.  Using tiebars in a passenger running line strikes me as a cut-price fix too far and certainly not something PWMEs, let alone the Regional Chief CE, would have condoned in WR times.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Using tiebars in a passenger running line strikes me as a cut-price fix too far and certainly not something PWMEs, let alone the Regional Chief CE, would have condoned in WR times.

Use of multiple tie bars was frowned upon in the areas where I worked on BR, it only seemed to become common after Railtrack had been in for a while. I remember one in the North-west c1997 where a low speed through platform had tie bars every third bed for about 30 yards. 

[Southernman46]

That is exactly the point of course.  If it's moving underload then it's going to keep moving and any cut-price fixes are exactly that - cut price fixes and not answers to the problem.  Using tiebars in a passenger running line strikes me as a cut-price fix too far and certainly not something PWMEs, let alone the Regional Chief CE, would have condoned in WR times.

 

 

Use of multiple tie bars was frowned upon in the areas where I worked on BR, it only seemed to become common after Railtrack had been in for a while. I remember one in the North-west c1997 where a low speed through platform had tie bars every third bed for about 30 yards. 

 

Not completely frowned completely upon particularly in the 2000 - 05 years when we were recovering from the mess that Railtrack & BBRM had created although these days I would question any TSM that has allowed a situation where the PW has deteriorated to an extent that tie-bars are required although the unexpected may still occur.

 

Tie-bars literally are a control to prevent something happening in the short-term - there should always be a plan to mitigate the reason within 6 months (this timescale may have changed) - any tie-bar site without a rectification plan was an immediate audit failure in my TME days and basically a message to one and all that I could not manage my area properly ............. same as any "pink form" hot weather site without a rectification plan.

 

For example ..........

Back in 2005 ......... Platform 15 at Waterloo was a tight-radius, non-HSTRC recorded, PAN8 baseplate site - we fitted 50 tie-bars in the week following a Friday night inspection that showed evidence of wide gauge and baseplate shuffle with a plan to replace 1 in 4 sleepers over the next three months - in conjunction with a proposal to completely renew within two years .................. now a relatively risk-free spanking concrete layout with no derailments having occurred - it's that simple ...................

 

and if all that seem a bit "smart-arse" - it is ........... because in the areas I was involved with - we managed the track properly and achieved the results ............ WTF is going on these days I shudder to think .................

 

Sorry - too much sun and Pinot .................

Edited August 28, 2017 by Southernman46

[Trog]

It is all those poxy bits of plywood that worry me, what are they supposed to be doing, at least tie bars are a proper and standards controlled measure?

They look new as well, so possibly a reaction to what happened on platform 2.

 

Is the top of the waybeam so soft and indented by the baseplates that they have been installed in an attempt to restore the level of the top of the timber.

The chairscrews along the platform edge side have also been replaced with new. M screws perhaps in an attempt to regain some grip?

 

If so the inside of that waybeam must be as rotten as a pear, and the posts across the 4' suggest that the transoms are not to be trusted either.

[Siberian Snooper]

It is all those poxy bits of plywood that worry me, what are they supposed to be doing, at least tie bars are a proper and standards controlled measure?

They look new as well, so possibly a reaction to what happened on platform 2.

 

Is the top of the waybeam so soft and indented by the baseplates that they have been installed in an attempt to restore the level of the top of the timber.

The chairscrews along the platform edge side have also been replaced with new. M screws perhaps in an attempt to regain some grip?

 

If so the inside of that waybeam must be as rotten as a pear, and the posts across the 4' suggest that the transoms are not to be trusted either.

Is it possible that it's the waybeams are moving and the tie bars and temporary transoms are an attempt at trying to keep it in some sort of order.

[Trog]

. Platform 15 at Waterloo was a tight-radius, non-HSTRC recorded, PAN8 baseplate site -

 

For the benefit of those of you who have not had the educational benefit of working on the P-Way.

 

The Pan8 is a cast iron baseplate for flat bottom rail, the rail being held in the baseplate by two of the larger red Pan401a clips or possibly their blue right handed equivalent if near a fishplate. The baseplate is then attached usually to a hardwood sleeper by three L1 lockspikes that look like large hairpins, driven through three of the six square holes cast into the baseplate. This is all fine and dandy except for two things, the spikes tend to rust through at the level of the bottom of the baseplate, where you can not see them, and that no one makes them anymore so replacements are somewhat hard to find. Should the spikes fail without you noticing there is then nothing to stop the baseplate from sliding off the sleeper. The only maintenance options once the L1 spikes start failing are either to fit Titymyger screws through the spare holes in the baseplates, with a view to relaying soon, or tiebars and start resleepering now. Needless to say Pan8 baseplates are now suspect and have been subject to checks, and remedial action particularly on curves where there are greater lateral forces.

 

 

Pan8 Baseplate.

 

 

Not how you replace failed L1 lockspikes.

[TheSignalEngineer]

It is all those poxy bits of plywood that worry me, what are they supposed to be doing, at least tie bars are a proper and standards controlled measure?

They look new as well, so possibly a reaction to what happened on platform 2.

 

Is the top of the waybeam so soft and indented by the baseplates that they have been installed in an attempt to restore the level of the top of the timber.

 

Is it possible that those baseplatres were sinking so far on to the timber to put the rail height out of gauge to the platform?

[Southernman46]

It is all those poxy bits of plywood that worry me, what are they supposed to be doing, at least tie bars are a proper and standards controlled measure?

They look new as well, so possibly a reaction to what happened on platform 2.

 

Is the top of the waybeam so soft and indented by the baseplates that they have been installed in an attempt to restore the level of the top of the timber.

The chairscrews along the platform edge side have also been replaced with new. M screws perhaps in an attempt to regain some grip?

 

If so the inside of that waybeam must be as rotten as a pear, and the posts across the 4' suggest that the transoms are not to be trusted either.

Agreed - execrable isn't it ...................................

[Trog]

Timber baulks tend to rot from the middle outwards, if those baulks are now so rotten in the middle that the baseplates are starting to push down through the top of the timber into the compost below. Reinforcing the top with a few bits of 1/4" ply to help support the weight of an HST power car is about as useful as putting the deck chairs on the Titanic into nice straight lines so more of the passengers can sit and listen to the band play abide with me in comfort.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Trog

[jamie92208]

I've just picked up a copy of the latest Rail.  They are saying that the derailment was caused by a rotten timber baulk collapsing.  There is a photo of the offending items that had been removed but I'm not competent to say whether they look rotten or not.

 

Jamie

[phil-b259]

Just a heads up - you remember that incident where a HST power car derailed upon departure a couple of moths ago - well Channel 5 are going to feature its recovery in Mondays "Paddington 24/7" Programme

 

People should also note that the trailer added to the end of episode 6 even had CCTV footage of the derailment actually happening!

 

It could thus make for interesting viewing for those versed in track maintenance.

[HillsideDepot]

Phil's post has reminded my that I took these shots of Platform 9 on Monday.

 

 

and a bit further along

 

[BrushVeteran]

Just a heads up - you remember that incident where a HST power car derailed upon departure a couple of moths ago - well Channel 5 are going to feature its recovery in Mondays "Paddington 24/7" Programme

 

People should also note that the trailer added to the end of episode 6 even had CCTV footage of the derailment actually happening!

 

It could thus make for interesting viewing for those versed in track maintenance.

Yes it was very interesting viewing and showed staff working under real pressure, and more importantly as a professional team................................................although I don't think I'll have "bangers and mash" for dinner today!

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Rather like the look of that new INTERCITY livery. Maybe GWR could adopt it instead of their dreadfully drab dark green..........  

[Miss Prism]

Nothing wrong with the 'dreadfully drab' dark green that couldn't be finessed with a bit of brass and copper.

[D854_Tiger]

Yes it was very interesting viewing and showed staff working under real pressure, and more importantly as a professional team................................................although I don't think I'll have "bangers and mash" for dinner today!

 

I don't think the program was able to add much to what we kind of new already, basically the supporting timbers were rotten.

 

Not a great advert for the railway but the track in Paddington station is hardly typical of a main line and I thought that point could have been made, anyone watching that, that didn't know better, might be under the impression trains are out there doing 125 mph over stuff like that, rather than no more than 5 mph.

 

The obvious question why is the track in Paddington supported that way. I presumed because there's some kind of undertow beneath but one of the guys was claiming the timbers are supported by a concrete base in which case why not just replace the whole job with prefabricated concrete slab.

 

Loved the comments from the engineer at Old Oak, examining the minimal damage to the power car, "Not bad for a forty year old train, they don't make them like that anymore".

 

Then I seem to remember they were saying that forty years ago.

[D854_Tiger]

Rather like the look of that new INTERCITY livery. Maybe GWR could adopt it instead of their dreadfully drab dark green..........

 

You mean a classic livery instead or stripey toothpaste one or is it the other way round.

 

I'm not saying.