Peco Bullhead Points: in the flesh

[PMP]

1 hour ago, Chamby said:

 

Note: I did say prior claim.  Interesting isn’t it, that this has now been dropped.

Its not been dropped, it was never there. 



Mediums at Model Rail Scotland this year with 2019 newsletter above.
This is the EP in 2016, no mention of ‘universal’ below.

 

This is RM’s introduction to it again 2016,

No mention of ‘universal’ It hasn’t been and isn’t referred to as a ‘universal’ product, so there’s no dropping or backtrack of any claim.

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by PMP
Add pics

[PaulRhB]

Universal was the range before ‘code 100 finescale track’ way back in the 80’s. They used it to refer to wheel standards that could use it so universal could cope with older wheels designed for the other manufacturers system 4 track.  I can’t remember seeing it since then so I’d agree with Paul it’s irrelevant as a term for the bullhead range and largely I think the locos are more the source of inconsistency. 
 

edit: here you go in the middle of the blurb. 

Edited August 11, 2022 by PaulRhB

[PMP]

2 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Universal was the range before ‘code 100 finescale track’ way back in the 80’s. They used it to refer to wheel standards that could use it so universal could cope with older wheels designed for the other manufacturers system 4 track.  I can’t remember seeing it since then. 

Correct, there were three types of streamline available at one time in the 80’s/early 90’s.

 

Universal 100 (as above)

Finescale 100, (reduced flangeways)

Finescale 75 code 75 flangeways etc same as CD100 finescale version, but reduced rail height.
Universal was subsequently withdrawn and the contemporary CD100 is what was marketed (then) as the CD100 Fine.

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, PMP said:

Correct, there were three types of streamline available at one time in the 80’s/early 90’s.

 

Interesting that in those days Streamline was H0/00.

 

And now it's 00/H0:

 

 https://peco-uk.com/products/turnout-large-radius-left-hand-2

 

When did that change happen? And any guesses why?

 

Peco are brilliant at branding and marketing. They don't make a change like that without a reason.

 

Martin.

[Harlequin]

15 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

I don't have an answer for crabbing pony trucks but isn't the fix for flangeless wheels to fit the alternative flanged wheels that are usually supplied with such models? The flangeless wheels are a horrible bodge to allow the locos to traverse R2 radius trainset curves and so it seems incongruous to still be using them with beautiful finescale bullhead track...???

 

I have set up a Y of bullhead track on my dining table incorporating a Large radius Unifrog Left turnout and I've been idly running various locos up and down all afternoon. (It's so hot that the only way to do anything today is idly.) No problems yet but I will try a Pacific with a flangeless rear pony if I can safely extract it from the high shelf it's stored on. 

 

 

Result: I tested two Hornby Pacifics. One works fine (with flangeless trailing pony wheels) but A4 Mallard consistently shorts on the Unifrog turnout, whether the flangeless or flanged trailing pony wheels are fitted.

 

The rear pony on this model has no articulation and very little sideplay in the rear axle (I had forgotten how it worked) so contrary to what I said above, and agreeing with PMP, it's not actually realistic to fit the flanged wheels in this case. ☹️

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Harlequin

[JohnR]

12 hours ago, PMP said:

To my knowledge Peco has never claimed the bullhead range to be universal. Please provide the source to that claim.

 

The 'Universal' moniker was only applied to the Code 100 range, surely?

[PMP]

44 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

Result: I tested two Hornby Pacifics. One works fine (with flangeless trailing pony wheels) but A4 Mallard consistently shorts on the Unifrog turnout, whether the flangeless or flanged trailing pony wheels are fitted.

 

The rear pony on this model has no articulation and very little sideplay in the rear axle (I had forgotten how it worked) so contrary to what I said above, and agreeing with PMP, it's not actually realistic to fit the flanged wheels in this case. ☹️

 

 The A4 I’ve tested is the same design style, you can tighten the retaining screw so the rear pony truck flangeless wheels are always clear of the rail head. The version I’ve borrowed runs through the points with no issues with flanged wheels fitted. I’d suggest trying the model with the flanged pony truck wheels with the b2b set at 14.5mm and see if that works. I’ve run the loco both with/without tender too.

[PaulRhB]

8 minutes ago, PMP said:

 The A4 I’ve tested is the same design style, you can tighten the retaining screw so the rear pony truck flangeless wheels are always clear of the rail head. The version I’ve borrowed runs through the points with no issues with flanged wheels fitted. I’d suggest trying the model with the flanged pony truck wheels with the b2b set at 14.5mm and see if that works. I’ve run the loco both with/without tender too.

The exaggerated swing out is obviously the issue with these and it’s the rail top that will be shorting. I think the only answer to that is to modify the cone, insulate the tread or modify the point by moving the isolation towards the switch end. I really don’t see that Peco should have to compensate their design for that crude solution to the pony truck, even turning the flange off some plastic wheels to replace the pony truck wheelset would solve it easily. 
I’m tempted to cut the breaks when I build my new boards just to eliminate any future issues from guest locos as it’s an easy job off the baseboard and two extra droppers can be attached to the main Unifrog one but I do think it’s still a loco fault not the points design. 

[PMP]

44 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

The 'Universal' moniker was only applied to the Code 100 range, surely?

Nope, ‘universal’ is also used in the O gauge bullhead track, and a good friend reminds me it has been used in the N gauge range too.

 

@martin_wynne The streamline track is packaged HO/OO, and has been for years. I don’t know the reason for the reversal in the part descriptions but suspect it may be to do with admin and Uk market.

[Bernard Lamb]

8 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Interesting that in those days Streamline was H0/00.

 

And now it's 00/H0:

 

 https://peco-uk.com/products/turnout-large-radius-left-hand-2

 

When did that change happen? And any guesses why?

 

Peco are brilliant at branding and marketing. They don't make a change like that without a reason.

 

Martin.

My guess would be that the target market changed.

You would need the sales figures break down for UK, USA and Germany by year to get an idea if that is a reasonable assumption.

Bernard

[PMP]

49 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

My guess would be that the target market changed.

You would need the sales figures break down for UK, USA and Germany by year to get an idea if that is a reasonable assumption.

Bernard

The streamline products both code100 and 75 are branded HO/OO and have been for years, and remained that’s way through packaging style changes.

The only thing that has changed is the part number description, which is almost certainly an internal ‘house’ thing. 
So to summarise 

16.5mm gauge flat bottom Streamline is Branded HO/OO 

Blue packaged CD100 on a closer look still mentions ‘universal’. Note that’s the revised 1980’s finer tolerance track that’s been the staple for forty years!

Yellow packaged 16.5mm CD75 HO/OO is described as ‘Fine Standard’

 

16.5mm gauge Bullhead Streamline is branded OO gauge, no mention of HO or ‘universal’

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by PMP
Add word

[Harlequin]

7 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

Result: I tested two Hornby Pacifics. One works fine (with flangeless trailing pony wheels) but A4 Mallard consistently shorts on the Unifrog turnout, whether the flangeless or flanged trailing pony wheels are fitted.

 

The rear pony on this model has no articulation and very little sideplay in the rear axle (I had forgotten how it worked) so contrary to what I said above, and agreeing with PMP, it's not actually realistic to fit the flanged wheels in this case. ☹️

 

 

Further update: The issue with my A4 was the back-to-backs on the tender wheels - nothing to do with the trailing pony. They were in the range 14.15-14.3mm.

 

Adjusted them all to 14.4-14.5mm range and it now runs through the turnout almost completely reliably. There is still the occasional short when one of the tender axles is near the frog so I guess that maybe the wheels are not quite parallel on that axle.

 

Hopefully, a large proportion of shorting problems with Bullhead Unifrog turnouts can be fixed as easily.

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Harlequin

[Dominion]

My issue has been similar to above. Hornby A1s A3s A4s when going from the toe end with the blades towards the heal, especially tender first. The shorting I have experienced is the wheel backs touching the other closure rail just before the knuckle. It has occurred in some other stock too.

 

I have a lot of hand built track in my scenic section built to OO-SF so I have already got rid of most of the back to backs that were set much too tight from the factory, so now a back to back of less than 16.3 is very rare in my stock. 

Measuring a couple of the Bullhead turnouts I have here, the track gauge at that spot varies from 16.4 to 16.5 mm. The gap at the end of the closure rail seems to be about 1.5mm. That leaves 14.9 to 15mm between the 2 inside rail faces. If the wheel flange is only 0.6 mm as it is on some RTR products then the back to backs would need to be above 14.4 mm to make sure the wheel backs don’t touch the inside closure rail. I will start using that as a minimum when I experience a short or when I am setting new back to backs and see if I can weed the issue out that way.

 

In the meantime I have applied a little nail varnish to the inside of the closure rail on a couple of turn outs where the issue was frequent and that has fixed it for now.

 

It is funny though that the electrical format Peco has chosen for the closure rails to the knuckle requires more precision in back to backs than my OO-SF hand built track.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Dominion
Paragraphs

[PMP]

27 minutes ago, Dominion said:

If the wheel flange is only 0.6 mm as it is on some RTR products then the back to backs would need to be above 14.4 mm to make sure the wheel backs don’t touch the inside closure rail. I will start using that as a minimum when I experience a short or when I am setting new back to backs and see if I can weed the issue out that way.

 

Some of us have been making that point for three years that it’s primarily  b2b problems and setting them to 14.5mm, resolves the issue.

As far as I’m aware no one else (except presumably Peco), has done the number of tests with both the points, slips and crossings as I have. I’ve used  both DC/DCC, frog electrified/inert, and with rigidly fixed track, loose laid track. I’ve used in excess of 75 RTR types including those types that have been identified as ‘problem’ types, and not experienced an issue until a borrowed A4 tender axle this past month showed a fault. That fault is a b2b of 14.1mm, and even then it’s intermittent.

 

The answer is set your b2b’s at 14.5mm , sort out any piss poor design crabbing bogies or rigid pony trucks and the problem goes away, no nail varnish required.

[PaulRhB]

2 hours ago, Dominion said:

is funny though that the electrical format Peco has chosen for the closure rails to the knuckle requires more precision in back to backs than my OO-SF hand built track.

Because Peco has to design for mass production not hand crafting each one 😉 I suspect that’s why the insulation is where it is as the bend in the rail to move the break towards the switches doesn’t exist so doesn’t cause tolerance issues. 
It’s interesting that in RC and slot cars it’s accepted that you need to set up vehicles to make sure they work best, usually each time you use them, but we consider having to fettle a loco once an issue ;) 

There is a simple answer for those who don’t want this problem, use the streamline ranges. The out of the box bullhead is simpler than the hand built and BF ranges that need assembling and a locking mechanism too. 

Edited August 13, 2022 by PaulRhB

[dasatcopthorne]

Re the shorting on the 00 Unifrog Bullhead.

 

I'll repeat myself.

 

All Peco (hope you are listening) need to do is make a very simple change to the manufacturing process and NOT power the wing rails which where the short, if any, occurs. Why on earth are they powered anyway??

 

Dave.

Edited August 14, 2022 by dasatcopthorne

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, dasatcopthorne said:

Re the shorting on the 00 Unifrog Bullhead.

 

I'll repeat myself.

 

All Peco (hope you are listening) need to do is make a very simple change to the manufacturing process and NOT power the wing rails which where the short, if any, occurs. Why on earth are they powered anyway??

 

Dave.

Dave, I don’t think it is the wing rails, it’s the two switch rails 2 & 3, a wheelset traversing the bottom route 2 rail  if tight on b to b’s will have one  polarity along with the frog. A tight back to back or wide flat tread means the this wheel tread or flange shorts to rail 3. The ‘frog’ or crossing is all the same polarity already so it doesn’t matter if you short across there. It’s not wheels bridging left to right between the red and yellow boxes it’s sideways. 

 

 

That was certainly the issue with the similar LGB and O gauge set track Unifrog points. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by PaulRhB

[PMP]

3 hours ago, dasatcopthorne said:

 

 

All Peco (hope you are listening) need to do is make a very simple change to the manufacturing process and NOT power the wing rails which where the short, if any, occurs. Why on earth are they powered anyway??

 

Dave.

As has been mentioned before, as well as immediately above, the wing rails and V point and splice rails are not powered.

The section inside the yellow marking is electrically dead as supplied, including the wing rails. If you don’t believe it put a power meter on them.
 

The only way to make it ‘live’ is to attach the frog wire to a power source. Then the section inside the yellow line will become live.

This is the underside of the point and you can see where the wing rails and V rails are welded inside the oval. The only power connection to those four pieces of rail is the wire for the frog which you can see leading out to the right of the picture.
 

If you’ve laid your points so that wire is touching another live wire, or another live rail it will pick up from that source. Otherwise it’s completely inert.

[dasatcopthorne]

6 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Dave, I don’t think it is the wing rails, it’s the two switch rails 2 & 3, a wheelset traversing the bottom route 2 rail  if tight on b to b’s will have one  polarity along with the frog. A tight back to back or wide flat tread means the this wheel tread or flange shorts to rail 3. The ‘frog’ or crossing is all the same polarity already so it doesn’t matter if you short across there. It’s not wheels bridging left to right between the red and yellow boxes it’s sideways. 

 

 

That was certainly the issue with the similar LGB and O gauge set track Unifrog points. 

 

Perfectly correct, of course.

 

What on earth was I thinking.

 

I'll crawl back into my very hot hole.

 

Dave.

[Methuselah]

Sorry to ask a slightly off-topic question. Long-shot ;- GWR Bullhead track with two-bolt chairs. I need a drawing for the wooden keys that were used. Would any kind soul be able to help please.....? 🙂

[martin_wynne]

13 minutes ago, Methuselah said:

Sorry to ask a slightly off-topic question. Long-shot ;- GWR Bullhead track with two-bolt chairs. I need a drawing for the wooden keys that were used. Would any kind soul be able to help please.....? 🙂

 

Not GWR, but REA keys are very similar. Download from:

 

 https://www.lmssociety.org.uk/assets/pdfs/permanentWay1928.pdf

 

Drawing of wooden key on page No.1

 

Martin.

[Methuselah]

2 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Not GWR, but REA keys are very similar. Download from:

 

 https://www.lmssociety.org.uk/assets/pdfs/permanentWay1928.pdf

 

Drawing of wooden key on page No.1

 

Martin.

 

Many Thanks Martin.

[D-A-T]

Just released onto YouTube. 
 

https://youtu.be/0wT-rTj0ieg

Edited August 25, 2022 by D-A-T

[Morphaniel]

On 28/07/2022 at 16:11, Gilbert said:

Does anyone have an update on an availability date for the medium points?

Chris

Going back to this - excellent - question... Rails shipped my LH medium to me today. Into the teeth of a postal strike, naturally, but after three years of having a hole in the middle of my layout track plan my patience is well polished 😀

 

[martin_wynne]

 

New video from Peco. Beginners guide to prototype bullhead track and how to weather it:

 

 

 

Martin.