Current Models Available in the Market Place today

[Roy Langridge]

Diesel fumes in HO, for anyone who has not seen this before. This video is two years old.

 

 

Personally, I quite like it, although I have seen it done better with a European loco. It would be much improved by colouring the fumes into a more realistic dirty brown or near black.

 

Not for me - no clag, just wispy smoke that looks like they have just lit a BBQ in there. Lacks realism in my opinion and therefore actually detracts from the effect.

 

Edit: which is a shame because I quite like the idea.

 

Roy

Edited December 8, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[Mike Storey]

Not for me - no clag, just wispy smoke that looks like they have just lit a BBQ in there. Lacks realism in my opinion and therefore actually detracts from the effect.

 

Edit: which is a shame because I quite like the idea.

 

Roy

 

Have you watched the video Roy? If you have/do, you will see that the effect when power applied and the fan automatically kicks in, is actually a good representation of the fumes shooting upwards from the exhaust, and not at all wispy. But when at rest, unfortunately, you do get the wisps as the liquid heats up and then again afterwards. I am not sure there is technically any way of avoiding this? At least, not yet.

[Mike Storey]

This is exactly how NOT to do diesel fumes......

 

[Roy Langridge]

Have you watched the video Roy? If you have/do, you will see that the effect when power applied and the fan automatically kicks in, is actually a good representation of the fumes shooting upwards from the exhaust, and not at all wispy. But when at rest, unfortunately, you do get the wisps as the liquid heats up and then again afterwards. I am not sure there is technically any way of avoiding this? At least, not yet.

 

Yes I watched it - I wouldn't comment without. Even with the fans it isn't right. Yes it looks better for an inch or so above the loco, above that it is still wisping, you see lines of smoke with hard edges, you just don't get that with clag, it fades out. Beyond that the colour is wrong, the density is wrong, the shape is wrong. For me, it just doesn't look right - it is as if smoke doesn't scale - just like water.

 

​If I were to have a loco with smoke, I would want it to look like the scenes in this: 

 

(not my video).

 

Watch the movement at 10:00ish. You can see the loco being notched back by the effect on the smoke, it is near instantaneous. If we could have that in model form, coupled with sound I would be a happy bunny.

 

As I said, I would like it to work, but, as you said, it isn't there yet .

 

Roy

Edited December 8, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[JDW]

I have to say I agree, Roy.  I was struggling to find the right word but "wispy" is exactly the one I was looking for.  You summed up exactly what I was thinking, wrong shape, wrong colour, wrong density, and although the technology that ejects it from the loco is good, the way it disperses just looks wrong.  It doesn't scale right, and just wafts around and drifts downwards.  I'm no fan of sound, but this seems even more of a gimmick to me, good for play value if you like that kind of thing but adds nothing to the value (as opposed to cost) of the model.

[wombatofludham]

I'm not convinced by the smoke either. It seems no further forward than my ancient Triang Car-a-Belle Jinty, probably because smoke, like water, doesn't scale.

 

Having said that I wonder if vaping technology might offer a solution?

[JDW]

I'm not convinced by the smoke either. It seems no further forward than my ancient Triang Car-a-Belle Jinty, probably because smoke, like water, doesn't scale.

 

Having said that I wonder if vaping technology might offer a solution?

 

I clicked "Agree" before I'd read your second line - the first bit, yes.  The second bit - nooooo, please!  It's bad enough using vaping technology for vaping, we don't want it anywhere else!

[MRDBLUE17]

I like the idea of smoke units, I’ve seen it to good effect in O gauge and I’ve tried it in a OO model, drilled through a Heljan 47 block to fit one but it just didn’t work out how I would like in recreating a big bit of clag. If it can be done however then it might be interesting.

 

Cheers

Mark

[Mike Storey]

I have to say I agree, Roy.  I was struggling to find the right word but "wispy" is exactly the one I was looking for.  You summed up exactly what I was thinking, wrong shape, wrong colour, wrong density, and although the technology that ejects it from the loco is good, the way it disperses just looks wrong.  It doesn't scale right, and just wafts around and drifts downwards.  I'm no fan of sound, but this seems even more of a gimmick to me, good for play value if you like that kind of thing but adds nothing to the value (as opposed to cost) of the mode

 

Yes I watched it - I wouldn't comment without. Even with the fans it isn't right. Yes it looks better for an inch or so above the loco, above that it is still wisping, you see lines of smoke with hard edges, you just don't get that with clag, it fades out. Beyond that the colour is wrong, the density is wrong, the shape is wrong. For me, it just doesn't look right - it is as if smoke doesn't scale - just like water.

 

​If I were to have a loco with smoke, I would want it to look like the scenes in this: 

 

(not my video).

 

Watch the movement at 10:00ish. You can see the loco being notched back by the effect on the smoke, it is near instantaneous. If we could have that in model form, coupled with sound I would be a happy bunny.

 

As I said, I would like it to work, but, as you said, it isn't there yet .

 

Roy

 

Good video! I agree it does not scale down well. I guess the consensus on here so far is that with current technology, it just does not look right in 00. It does look a lot better in O gauge (see Lionel or MTH videos), and the response to the throttle is more instant, but then the fans are more powerful and there is more room for a more sophisticated smoke unit. But for some reason, the fumes are still all white...... and still a little wispy at the edges.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Diesel fumes ... It would be much improved by colouring the fumes into a more realistic dirty brown or near black.

 To the best of my knowledge this can only be done by adding particulates. (I'll qualify that by saying that while there are gasses and vapours that are coloured these are hazardous substances, highly chemically reactive; so while some might tolerate Iodine or nitrogen dioxide being sprayed into the playroom in the interests of realism, I will pass!) The particulates will be just that, dirt, that then 'falls out'. I'll pass on that too...

[Mike Storey]

 To the best of my knowledge this can only be done by adding particulates. (I'll qualify that by saying that while there are gasses and vapours that are coloured these are hazardous substances, highly chemically reactive; so while some might tolerate Iodine or nitrogen dioxide being sprayed into the playroom in the interests of realism, I will pass!) The particulates will be just that, dirt, that then 'falls out'. I'll pass on that too...

 

Strange, because there are now water based steam "oils" (otherwise mineral oils, quite unlike the original Seuthe and similar products). See Deluxe Materials and MTH. Colourants for acrylic paints etc do not contain AFAIK carcinogens. Why are the particulates you cite the only way to get a brown colour?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Strange, because there are now water based steam "oils" (otherwise mineral oils, quite unlike the original Seuthe and similar products). See Deluxe Materials and MTH...

 I will freely admit I know nothing about these and it would be interesting to read user experiences, both in respect of effectiveness in appearance and any subsequent fall out. (Preferable to the commercial advertising material, on the basis that fishmongers don't shout 'Get your stinking fish here!'.)

 

...Colourants for acrylic paints etc do not contain AFAIK carcinogens. Why are the particulates you cite the only way to get a brown colour?

Leave the 'carcinogens' out of consideration a moment: the pigments suspended in a paint, are particulate matter in a binder maintained in liquid state by a solvent. Disperse those same pigment particulates in the air, and you will get a coloured 'cloud': but inevitably it will fall out and deposit. Soot is a good example, particulate carbon in the main, and dependent on concentration in the air can range from solidly near black to very pale grey. It is also a carcinogen, but there are safer alternatives in particulates in this respect: the big problem with these is the inevitable fall out which is 'dirt'.

 

That's the reasonably safe way to obtain a  coloured 'cloud'. There are gaseous substances, both elements and compounds, that are coloured; but this colouration is a marker of hazard because of our biochemistry, which makes them unusable for hobby purposes. (We are very delicately set up to use the violently oxidising element Oxygen. We don't see its colour - a very pale blue - in gaseous form, it is only readily seen when present as a cryogenic liquid. Other oxidising gasses provide a range of colours but also immediately destroy respiratory capacity if inhaled, which is potentially lethal. Those who work with these materials are early taught coloured cloud =  run away, raise the alarm!)

[Mike Storey]

 I will freely admit I know nothing about these and it would be interesting to read user experiences, both in respect of effectiveness in appearance and any subsequent fall out. (Preferable to the commercial advertising material, on the basis that fishmongers don't shout 'Get your stinking fish here!'.)

 

Leave the 'carcinogens' out of consideration a moment: the pigments suspended in a paint, are particulate matter in a binder maintained in liquid state by a solvent. Disperse those same pigment particulates in the air, and you will get a coloured 'cloud': but inevitably it will fall out and deposit. Soot is a good example, particulate carbon in the main, and dependent on concentration in the air can range from solidly near black to very pale grey. It is also a carcinogen, but there are safer alternatives in particulates in this respect: the big problem with these is the inevitable fall out which is 'dirt'.

 

That's the reasonably safe way to obtain a  coloured 'cloud'. There are gaseous substances, both elements and compounds, that are coloured; but this colouration is a marker of hazard because of our biochemistry, which makes them unusable for hobby purposes. (We are very delicately set up to use the violently oxidising element Oxygen. We don't see its colour - a very pale blue - in gaseous form, it is only readily seen when present as a cryogenic liquid. Other oxidising gasses provide a range of colours but also immediately destroy respiratory capacity if inhaled, which is potentially lethal. Those who work with these materials are early taught coloured cloud =  run away, raise the alarm!)

 

Thanks - I much better understand the issues with colouration now.

 

Complaints about the earlier (and some existing) steam oils were often concerning the residue which required careful cleaning off delicate paint finishes. Indeed, some behaved much like paint stripper. Modern versions claim no such harmful effect, although there is still some minor residue.

 

I see now, from your explanation, why colourants could become a similar problem. But if the only problem became actual, but not particularly harmful "dirt", falling on to our layouts, that could be a good thing? Just like the real thing. But not very good if your set up is in a bedroom, or on Auntie Mabel's dining table. I see that.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I see now, from your explanation, why colourants could become a similar problem. But if the only problem became actual, but not particularly harmful "dirt", falling on to our layouts, that could be a good thing? Just like the real thing. But not very good if your set up is in a bedroom, or on Auntie Mabel's dining table. I see that.

 This would need some bold pioneers to actually try out the effect. Powder poster paint (the old Rowney product much loved at primary school perhaps?) blown from a puffer to gauge the effect in the air as exhaust, and the subsequent build up on a layout. My feeling is that this might be OK for industrial areas with the fall out of coking, steelworks, potteries and factory chimneys resulting in a scene dominate by shades of grey brown. Not so good elsewhere.

[charliepetty]

 This would need some bold pioneers to actually try out the effect. Powder poster paint (the old Rowney product much loved at primary school perhaps?) blown from a puffer to gauge the effect in the air as exhaust, and the subsequent build up on a layout. My feeling is that this might be OK for industrial areas with the fall out of coking, steelworks, potteries and factory chimneys resulting in a scene dominate by shades of grey brown. Not so good elsewhere.

Or in India!

[Dungrange]

But if the only problem became actual, but not particularly harmful "dirt", falling on to our layouts, that could be a good thing? Just like the real thing.

 

But that would mean more track cleaning.  I'm not convinced that I want that.

[tamperman36]

I would like to see a class 58 with a well detailed cab interior, correctly working day and night lights, rotating fans and opening cab doors, sound would be nice but smoke is an issue as it just doesn't flow correctly. It would need some serious electronics to give the correct exhaust clouds.

 

Next would be the class 45 in the final years with sealed beam marker lights and high intensity headlight, you could use smoke on this for the steam heated locos and have it escape under the nose ends, again a rotating fan would be nice and opening cab doors.

 

An modern standard model of a class 110 would be nice with lighting and passengers/train crew.

 

And something totally new, a tamper. Plasser 08/16 or 08/32 with lights, sound and crew would be perfect

[Neil]

If you compare the video of the real 47s with that of either the Broadway Ltd or the REE 66 then the model smoke effects look quite frankly pants. However that's not the only unfavourable comparison between the two; the sound of both models is tinny, repetitive and toy like when set against the real deal. I remain to be convinced that either of these features are anything but gimmicks.

[Tim Dubya]

Leave the fake smoke for Hornby Mag to airbrush in and ruin otherwise great photos.
.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Tim Dubya

[The Black Hat]

Im just adding my voice to this, having kicked off the issue of the smoke needing the be discussed. I personally think Id rather go without smoke from the model.

 

Steam engines dont look right, it doesnt have the increase and disperse from the blastpipe. Im not convinced diesels do either when power is applied as well as sitting there idelling. Sometimes an engine shouldnt produce much clag anyway, and I think for this, its better to go without.

 

DCC Sound has brought a new element of realism, and controling the lighting settings to allow push button control for every operation would be where things need to go if I was asked. I dont think you need opening doors, and maybe not rotating fans, but I would add smoke as a gimmick and one that could actually detract from the realism you manage to get if you did the sound and lights correctly.

[BigAndy]

As mentioned in my earlier post, smoke does not scale down!

 

Even in 7mm it doesn't look right.

 

The burning of smoke oil is both anti-social, harmful to the environment and a damned nuisance to everything it settles on in the immediate vicinity - including track. If a manufacturer like Realtrack were to consider a realistic smoke unit in a model, the first prioroty is safety and the second most important consideration is whether it looks like the real thing. It would need a considerable ammount of time investment, not to mention money, to research and get it to a prototype stage.

 

It's why I made the suggestion of how theatre hazers work. I am involved in backstage work ( as one of my other hobbies ) and would state that the heating up of water to produce steam as a diesel exhaust ( I know, the irony isn't lost on me ) would be a more ethical and productive way to start some research. Then of course, you would have to insert the disclaimers of bioling hot water inside a model in case anyone gets burned......!

 

In all seriousness though, steam is a lot finer than smoke and would look a hundred times better. I really know nothing of the mechanics of smoke gizmos in locos, but surely the heating element has to get quite hot to burn the oil anyway, so would a small scale kettle be any more dangerous - so long as it was encased in a suitable container. If said steam could be coloured to reflect different Diesel classes penchant for a particular type of exhaust, then that would also be most excellent.

 

The smoke 'thing' would be the next game changer for modellers, the same as sound was. Whoever manages to crack this particular nut and patent it, would no doubt be quite wealthy.

 

cheers

 

Andy

[Mike Storey]

As mentioned in my earlier post, smoke does not scale down!

 

Even in 7mm it doesn't look right.

 

The burning of smoke oil is both anti-social, harmful to the environment and a damned nuisance to everything it settles on in the immediate vicinity - including track. If a manufacturer like Realtrack were to consider a realistic smoke unit in a model, the first prioroty is safety and the second most important consideration is whether it looks like the real thing. It would need a considerable ammount of time investment, not to mention money, to research and get it to a prototype stage.

 

It's why I made the suggestion of how theatre hazers work. I am involved in backstage work ( as one of my other hobbies ) and would state that the heating up of water to produce steam as a diesel exhaust ( I know, the irony isn't lost on me ) would be a more ethical and productive way to start some research. Then of course, you would have to insert the disclaimers of bioling hot water inside a model in case anyone gets burned......!

 

In all seriousness though, steam is a lot finer than smoke and would look a hundred times better. I really know nothing of the mechanics of smoke gizmos in locos, but surely the heating element has to get quite hot to burn the oil anyway, so would a small scale kettle be any more dangerous - so long as it was encased in a suitable container. If said steam could be coloured to reflect different Diesel classes penchant for a particular type of exhaust, then that would also be most excellent.

 

The smoke 'thing' would be the next game changer for modellers, the same as sound was. Whoever manages to crack this particular nut and patent it, would no doubt be quite wealthy.

 

cheers

 

Andy

 

Modern smoke oils are claimed to be non-toxic, being aqueous mineral oil solutions in the main.

 

But Hornby used the boiling water solution (via a miniaturised immersion heater) in their one attempt at this. It didn't really catch on, and when you watch the video, it is not hard to see why.....

 

[Clive Mortimore]

Bit late to this party and I think toy trains pushing out pollutants should be confined to their boxes along with those with their tinny sounds and X mas lights.

 

Anyhow back to Mr Petty's request.

1, 10800, before Heljan do it, but don't do it as Hawk.

2, LMS/BR 350 shunter (a class 11) and the WR 350s 15101-6

3, SR/BR 350 shunter (a class 12)

4, a class 48

5, Hunslet 156hp 0-4-0 shunter, both tram and unskirted versions.

 

I mentioned don't do it as Hawk, I don't know anyone who has a model of one. 

 

Oh look what I found

Edited December 13, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[Roy Langridge]

Am I the only person concerned that we have two near identical threads, from 2 small companies that are asking the same questions and both have said or have a track record of being well advanced before making announcements? Seems like a recipe for disaster that could severely damange one or both.

 

Roy

[crazynitwit]

Modern smoke oils are claimed to be non-toxic, being aqueous mineral oil solutions in the main.

 

But Hornby used the boiling water solution (via a miniaturised immersion heater) in their one attempt at this. It didn't really catch on, and when you watch the video, it is not hard to see why.....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLsDYvYDxD0

I actually think that looks alright.