RMweb Premium JDW Posted December 13, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2017 It might look OK (real steam is better than fake smoke at least) but apparently they were very difficult to control, and only really any good for roundy-roundy layouts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted December 13, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2017 As mentioned in my earlier post, smoke does not scale down! Even in 7mm it doesn't look right. The burning of smoke oil is both anti-social, harmful to the environment and a damned nuisance to everything it settles on in the immediate vicinity - including track. If a manufacturer like Realtrack were to consider a realistic smoke unit in a model, the first prioroty is safety and the second most important consideration is whether it looks like the real thing. It would need a considerable ammount of time investment, not to mention money, to research and get it to a prototype stage. It's why I made the suggestion of how theatre hazers work. I am involved in backstage work ( as one of my other hobbies ) and would state that the heating up of water to produce steam as a diesel exhaust ( I know, the irony isn't lost on me ) would be a more ethical and productive way to start some research. Then of course, you would have to insert the disclaimers of bioling hot water inside a model in case anyone gets burned......! In all seriousness though, steam is a lot finer than smoke and would look a hundred times better. I really know nothing of the mechanics of smoke gizmos in locos, but surely the heating element has to get quite hot to burn the oil anyway, so would a small scale kettle be any more dangerous - so long as it was encased in a suitable container. If said steam could be coloured to reflect different Diesel classes penchant for a particular type of exhaust, then that would also be most excellent. The smoke 'thing' would be the next game changer for modellers, the same as sound was. Whoever manages to crack this particular nut and patent it, would no doubt be quite wealthy. cheers Andy Existing smoke units don't burn the oil, they just vaporise it. After it exits the chimney it re-condenses onto whatever it hits; usually coach roofs or the track. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted December 13, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2017 Existing smoke units don't burn the oil, they just vaporise it. After it exits the chimney it re-condenses onto whatever it hits; usually coach roofs or the track. John Oh very trendy, vaping not smoking 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 I would say from a commercial point of view, forget DMUs ,EMUS, ......personally I think people would only pay a premium for trophy items like locos. So, in my view , the most popular types of loco that have been done in a mediocre fashion or could do with an upgrade. Step forward Class 31,37,47,50,66. Nothing really wrong with the bachy 37,47 but they could be a rolls Royce standard version. However what will the market bare for cost ? Bells and whistles I’d go to about £200.....and there’s the problem as Bachmann sound stuff already has an RRp over that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted December 14, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 14, 2017 I would say from a commercial point of view, forget DMUs ,EMUS, ......personally I think people would only pay a premium for trophy items like locos. So, in my view , the most popular types of loco that have been done in a mediocre fashion or could do with an upgrade. Step forward Class 31,37,47,50,66. Nothing really wrong with the bachy 37,47 but they could be a rolls Royce standard version. However what will the market bare for cost ? Bells and whistles I’d go to about £200.....and there’s the problem as Bachmann sound stuff already has an RRp over that. I doubt that £200 will get you bells and whistles. Look at the SLW Class 24. £170 now without sound, add that and you are pushing towards £300. I don’t see anything from Charlie being much less, if anything. Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 I doubt that £200 will get you bells and whistles. Look at the SLW Class 24. £170 now without sound, add that and you are pushing towards £300. I don’t see anything from Charlie being much less, if anything. Roy £300 with DCC Sound + SuperCap iirc now for the newer batch models. Plus extra if you want EM/P4 wheel option. I doubt adding smoke would come in less than £75-100 extra so likely nearer to £400 perhaps for all the bells and whistles. Is it worth it? eye of the beholder type question perhaps. Personally I don't think smoke can be made to work reliably and cleanly enough (do we really want moisture deposits on our stock and track with DCC going through it? perhaps fine if Radio Control was used in place of DCC though?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted December 14, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 14, 2017 £300 with DCC Sound + SuperCap iirc now for the newer batch models. Plus extra if you want EM/P4 wheel option. I doubt adding smoke would come in less than £75-100 extra so likely nearer to £400 perhaps for all the bells and whistles. Is it worth it? eye of the beholder type question perhaps. Personally I don't think smoke can be made to work reliably and cleanly enough (do we really want moisture deposits on our stock and track with DCC going through it? perhaps fine if Radio Control was used in place of DCC though?) Radio control with sound and smoke would put one hell of a drain on the batteries you can fit in an 00 model. I’ll stick to DCC and no smoke for now. Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 £300 with DCC Sound + SuperCap iirc now for the newer batch models. Plus extra if you want EM/P4 wheel option. I doubt adding smoke would come in less than £75-100 extra so likely nearer to £400 perhaps for all the bells and whistles. Is it worth it? eye of the beholder type question perhaps. Personally I don't think smoke can be made to work reliably and cleanly enough (do we really want moisture deposits on our stock and track with DCC going through it? perhaps fine if Radio Control was used in place of DCC though?) In some ways you already have remote control. Hook up your DCC controller like ECoS to a router for Wi-Fi and off you go. We were driving engines on mobile phones using a free app at the last exhibition. People were wondering how on earth things were moving when there was no one stood behind the layout! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted December 16, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 16, 2017 (edited) I’d say a class 55, it’s one of the oldest rtr diesels still in the market, a popular one and ripe for picking. As for a Unit, i’d Imagine from a multiple unit research perspective, you probably have the highest amount of mkt research data available...i’d Look through your website, which lists a fantastic range of no longer available kits, and pick the one with most unfulfilled orders. Edited December 16, 2017 by adb968008 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted December 16, 2017 Author Share Posted December 16, 2017 I’d say a class 55, it’s one of the oldest rtr diesels still in the market, a popular one and ripe for picking. As for a Unit, i’d Imagine from a multiple unit research perspective, you probably have the highest amount of mkt research data available...i’d Look through your website, which lists a fantastic range of no longer available kits, and pick the one with most unfulfilled orders. BUT 3 Car Units would cost over £300.00. That's the problem. Charlie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted December 16, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 16, 2017 Just do the Deltic, then! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DRS Crewe On A Mission Posted December 16, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 16, 2017 I suppose the issue regarding units with more than two cars which is the majority of them is that with every additional car produced comes the added extra cost. I was looking at some photos of the new Class 345s the other day and they are nine car units. I then began to think about them in model form. There is no doubt that the price tag for one in OO Gauge would be into four figures. Then begs the question just how many people can afford over £1000 for one unit? A very very small minority most likely which I would think means that these types of units with more carriages won't be produced in RTR form anytime soon as the target market is so small, not because of the unit in question but because of the price tag. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigAndy Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 I suppose the issue regarding units with more than two cars which is the majority of them is that with every additional car produced comes the added extra cost. I was looking at some photos of the new Class 345s the other day and they are nine car units. I then began to think about them in model form. There is no doubt that the price tag for one in OO Gauge would be into four figures. Then begs the question just how many people can afford over £1000 for one unit? A very very small minority most likely which I would think means that these types of units with more carriages won't be produced in RTR form anytime soon as the target market is so small, not because of the unit in question but because of the price tag. Not until good quality 3D printers at an affordable price for everyone become available at any rate. Then it will be a case of 'purchasing' the 3D CAD work, downloading it and then printing off however many coaches you want. That will be the only viable and economical way that a manufacturer will be able to produce something like a 345, and of course the only way that most modellers will be able to own a complete set. Then of course you would still have wheels, motors etc to buy...... cheers Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted December 16, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 16, 2017 Not until good quality 3D printers at an affordable price for everyone become available at any rate. Then it will be a case of 'purchasing' the 3D CAD work, downloading it and then printing off however many coaches you want. That will be the only viable and economical way that a manufacturer will be able to produce something like a 345, and of course the only way that most modellers will be able to own a complete set. Then of course you would still have wheels, motors etc to buy...... cheers Andy But maybe not that bad. A Class 345 has only four different coaches I think, so one tooling may suit several coaches in a set. That may lower the cost. Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 But maybe not that bad. A Class 345 has only four different coaches I think, so one tooling may suit several coaches in a set. That may lower the cost. Roy As long as enough of that type of coach is produced! Look at the Hornby GWR green HST and the limited number of Standard class coaches produced, demand has outstripped supply so some of us are buying up First class coaches to turn into Standard class ones but the shops are left with Powercars, Buffets and TGSs because there are not enough 1sts or standards available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
25901 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 Why rehash rtr models already in existence when there are so many 'virgin' possibilities out there? The Ruston 88DS can appear in a variety of legitimate BR liveries, it's baby brother the 48DS is damn cute and comes with the option of early or late cabs, the North British 0-4-0 goes a step further with early or late pattern bodies and even has an outside frame variant, the list goes on and on. Big possibilities in the world of small diesels. The small shunters have a big problem, no space inside. A 88ds would be a super shunter for a lot of layouts and yes you can buy a kit but I fear many companies will miss this due to production issues with size. The same goes for any NBL shunter though one chassis will cover quite a few different 0-4-0's but the wonderful Sentinel has helped break the mould. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted December 16, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 16, 2017 As long as enough of that type of coach is produced! Look at the Hornby GWR green HST and the limited number of Standard class coaches produced, demand has outstripped supply so some of us are buying up First class coaches to turn into Standard class ones but the shops are left with Powercars, Buffets and TGSs because there are not enough 1sts or standards available. Only an issue if they are sold separately, which need not be the case. Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonC Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 I'd think it very difficult to pick a loco to replace which would be likely to sell enough where the current model The Bachmann Class 20 looks not too bad with lights fitted and they must already have sold a lot, but with them tooling up the 20/3 I'd be amazed if they didn't also tool up to fit lights to the original 20s. While they're unlikely to be improved to SLW standards, there could potentially be an opening there if you're really aiming for detail - widely used, good lifespan, lots of liveries. I'm not sure if I'd replace the Bachmann ones I already have unless its something special, perhaps sound features. Class 37 - does it need to be a whole loco - would producing WIPAC-lighted noses be an option for swapping onto Bachmann bodies and chassis? It does have longevity, geographical spread and a variety of liveries. Personally I'd rather have a selection of 37s in different liveries at the standard of the Bachmann one than spend a lot more on a few more detailed ones. Class 47 - I'm not keen on the Bachmann flush-fronted ones - the lights look too big and are recessed where the Heljan effort looked better in that respect. Class 55 - possible, but there was only 22 of them and there will have been a lot already produced by Bachmann in a more limited selection of liveries. The obvious way to trump the Bachmann model I'd think would be focussing on the sound features If it must be a loco I'd suggest Class 31 - the Hornby one has shape issues and they've hardly been prolific at producing earlier liveries after the first few batches had the self-destruct Mazak problems. Definitely room for improvement! BR Era 31/4's have been particularly thin on the ground and with the right tooling could you not also cover the earlier Class 30s too - are there sound recordings of those anywhere? or Class 86!!! But like many others, I'd suggest concentrating on DMUs ... Class 104 or 120 for me! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ColinK Posted December 20, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 20, 2017 I agree with the 31 but only really because of the mazak rot. I still think dmu’s are the best way forward for Charlie. I know that a TransPennine or Cross Country unit would be expensive (£300 plus for a 3 car set), but I don’t mind paying that for a good model that I really want. Maybe a similar approach to the APT project under discussion elsewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 ...Class 55 - possible, but there was only 22 of them and there will have been a lot already produced by Bachmann in a more limited selection of liveries. The obvious way to trump the Bachmann model I'd think would be focussing on the sound features ... It was the mention of an ambitious sound fit that pushed me toward the class 55 as the obvious target among the weaker apperance OO diesel models currently before us. The Bach model was designed before a sound fit became the thing to do, so the relatively large body shell with space to fit decent infinite baffle speakers cannot be exploited without rebuilding the mechanism completely. And when it comes to sound effects this one has the 'Weeeeow boom clang-a-bang' repertoire normally only found in pop recording studios. ... Class 31 - the Hornby one has shape issues and they've hardly been prolific at producing earlier liveries ...and with the right tooling could you not also cover the earlier Class 30s too ... That would be my no 2 vote because of the significant cab side window error which is difficult to correct, but it should be noted that it is the class 30 that is required for 'eartlier liveries' if by that is meant any applied between 1957 and 1965. There were no 31's built new, all are conversions of 30's by engine change following the trial install of the EE unit in 1964. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Jackson Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 my vote is for swindon 124 trans pennine dmu or the class 141 railbus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluo66 Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 After Bachmann has cancelled/suspended the retooled class 166 what about this DMU? Many variants (165,166,168,170) and liveries to produce. Just a thought... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium JDW Posted January 2, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 2, 2018 Funnily enough I just came back to this thread having had the thought "what about a 165?" Since the Bachmann retooled 166 is getting further and further away it seems, it would both complement that model and also maybe steal a march on it if it were released first, as well as pick up sales that way from people who don't know/don't care about the difference between a 165 and 166 who just want a "Turbo" DMU. (not to be confused with a Turbostar!). It would also give scope for the Chiltern units (Chiltern only having 165s) as well as the version of Thames Trains/FGW Link livery with green circles on the doors instead of the green S-shape on the 166s. And now under FGW the class will start to spread its wings further as the units are displaced to places like the Severn Beach route, giving a wider geographical sphere of operation. Plus they're quite nice looking units too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Funnily enough I just came back to this thread having had the thought "what about a 165?" Since the Bachmann retooled 166 is getting further and further away it seems, it would both complement that model and also maybe steal a march on it if it were released first, as well as pick up sales that way from people who don't know/don't care about the difference between a 165 and 166 who just want a "Turbo" DMU. (not to be confused with a Turbostar!). It would also give scope for the Chiltern units (Chiltern only having 165s) as well as the version of Thames Trains/FGW Link livery with green circles on the doors instead of the green S-shape on the 166s. And now under FGW the class will start to spread its wings further as the units are displaced to places like the Severn Beach route, giving a wider geographical sphere of operation. Plus they're quite nice looking units too. While I'm agreeing that this option just became a lot more feasible given Bachmann kicking off the 166 into touch, I think the other option mentioned would be the best unit for Charlie to be doing. Class 170s have become widespread, operate over many routes and have a host of liveries to choose from. They cover just about every region since privitisation. Personally, they would be my choice for the next unit that Charlie and the team attempted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonC Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 While I'm agreeing that this option just became a lot more feasible given Bachmann kicking off the 166 into touch, I think the other option mentioned would be the best unit for Charlie to be doing. Class 170s have become widespread, operate over many routes and have a host of liveries to choose from. They cover just about every region since privitisation. Personally, they would be my choice for the next unit that Charlie and the team attempted. Are the Bachmann Class 170s all that bad? Rather than duplicating would there not be more mileage in a newly tooled model that has no previous competition? Class 104? 120? 175? 185? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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