Bachmann H1 Class Atlantic

[Edwardian]

Not sure. My guess is that with DP1 and CoT selling well, they got a bit cocky and ordered a few too many, which then sat on the shelves. Or maybe the fact that it wasn't the first time this loco had been available RTR was a factor? Dunno.

 

Thanks, so the guess is something like over-supply.  I picked up on this because I wondered if there had been some flaw in it of which I was unaware.

 

It is a great pity that Bachmann bottled producing their Period I coaches in pre-1933 lined livery, as they once showed these as part of a forthcoming train pack with a Compound.  I'd have bought that set just for the coaches!

[phil-b259]

Hamilton Ellis, in his history of the LBSCR, supposed that names after headlands were “alright”, but that Portland Bill sounded like a guest of Government in Dorset. I have never been to Portland, although my (English) near neighbour here in France moved there a couple of years ago. I am unlikely to be invited to visit, and pics of the place do not inspire.

 

Never mind the names, these look marvelous.

 

I thought the names on both the H1 and H2 classes were a Southern Railway invention and that the LBSCR generally hadn't bothered with names since the Marsh era.

[Edwardian]

I thought the names on both the H1 and H2 classes were a Southern Railway invention and that the LBSCR generally hadn't bothered with names since the Marsh era.

 

That is so.  Cooked up by the Southern's publicity department in 1925 and from then applied whenever an H came in for a repaint. RCTS has the dates upon which each assumed its new identity.

[Anglian]

But not for the cylinders, which seem to be the same as on the H2. On the H1 they seem smaller, with the top slidebar tucked inside the angle of the valence and running plate, which is quite a distinctive feature. I guess that would be impossible to model in anything other than sheet metal, so they've had to compromise. 

 

 

I've been doing a little research and it appears that only no 39 La France had the larger cylinders as were later used on the H2, which may be why Bachmann have chosen this locomotive to release as an H1.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Anglian

[Nick Holliday]

In that early format La France wasn't vacuum fitted so you need to do a little photoshop tweak.

 

I've just pre-ordered mine.

The Atlantics were fitted with steam heating, and pipework, very similar to vacuum brake equipment, would be installed for the season on the front buffer beam. This was located on the left side of the coupling hook, and it is difficult to see, from the only photo of it so far, just which side the standpipe is fixed on the model.

[Anglian]

Nick – thank you. I'll have to look at the images I have of the H1 again. Do you know when they were so fitted as I can't see any indication of a fitting point into buffer beam in the pre-war images I have been looking at.

[Nick Holliday]

Nick – thank you. I'll have to look at the images I have of the H1 again. Do you know when they were so fitted as I can't see any indication of a fitting point into buffer beam in the pre-war images I have been looking at.

As far as I know, they would have carried them almost from new. I can't find any particularly good images on Google, but two recent books on the topic, by English and Baldwin respectively have plenty of examples, including a fine front view of 39 itself, as La France, on page 105 of the Pen and Sword book, with a couple of less clear images of 39 around grouping, on page 56 of the Ian Allan book. The fitting looks pretty flimsy, as one might expect of a temporary arrangement, and the fitters were no doubt adept at making good the holes when the pipe was removed in the spring.

[coachmann]

My modelling instincts lead me to consider what the Brighton H1 would look like in unclean condition oozing oil and grime. Such a condition would certainly highlight the shapely curves and probably make the locos look larger than life. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by coachmann

[Anglian]

As far as I know, they would have carried them almost from new. I can't find any particularly good images on Google, but two recent books on the topic, by English and Baldwin respectively have plenty of examples, including a fine front view of 39 itself, as La France, on page 105 of the Pen and Sword book, with a couple of less clear images of 39 around grouping, on page 56 of the Ian Allan book. The fitting looks pretty flimsy, as one might expect of a temporary arrangement, and the fitters were no doubt adept at making good the holes when the pipe was removed in the spring.

 

 

I have the English book – I think I need to look harder! 

[Cor-onGRT4]

Here's some original technical information provided by the Southern Railway in a 70 page booklet from arround 1927/28

 

with nr  B 37 in Southern livery

 

BTW i've ordered one, such a beauty

Edited January 10, 2018 by Cor-onGRT4

[adb968008]

Thanks, so the guess is something like over-supply.  I picked up on this because I wondered if there had been some flaw in it of which I was unaware.

 

It is a great pity that Bachmann bottled producing their Period I coaches in pre-1933 lined livery, as they once showed these as part of a forthcoming train pack with a Compound.  I'd have bought that set just for the coaches!

 

Don't forget the Compound is an all round poor man out.

41157 and 40934 are still available at many places, at nearly half the original price, Hattons will sell you them for £80.

 

Its a strange one really.. they run really well, pull above their weight and are spectacularly well detailed... but they just seem to stick on shelves, LMS 1000 was no exception, only 1189 in Black seemed to go well.

 

Even as a source of spares they are a bargain, if you take the DCC ready Fowler tender (which aren't the easiest spare part to find), and the 4-4-0 Chassis.. which if you remove the cylinders/redundant valve gear gives you a top of the range 4-4-0 chassis good for replacing those 1970's 4-4-0 triang kit conversions of which there are many many many to be found.

 

I picked up 3 from Warley last year c£50 each.. Tenders were swapped around to give me some variations on BR Hughes & Stanier Crabs, but maintaining the factory finish. Chassis will go under a North Staffs Railway 4-4-0 kit (converted from Triang L1 with course wheels picked up on ebay)... Body/Boxes for ebay, i'd expect £15-20 or so for them.

Edited January 10, 2018 by adb968008

[Richard Jones]

So, can anyone tell me what dates for,a) B421 being renumbered 2421, b) when it was named, and c) lowering of cab and boiler fittings to "composite" loading gauge?

Cheers

Richard

[chris45lsw]

So, can anyone tell me what dates for,a) B421 being renumbered 2421, b) when it was named, and c) lowering of cab and boiler fittings to "composite" loading gauge?

Cheers

Richard

Named February 1926.

 

Don't know when renumbered 2421 but it was after July 1931 but done by January 1933.

 

Modified to composite loading gauge February 1937.

 

Chris KT

[Nick Holliday]

There is unfortunately (and literally) a big problem with LBSC coaches, in that many of them were built to the limits of the Brighton loading gauge and were thereby precluded from working off their home system.

 

This meant that, when the Brighton was converted to 3rd rail electric operation, some of those coaches that would fit were converted to pull-push sets and others went to the Isle of Wight where they generally underwent significant change. Those that were out-of-gauge for other parts of the Southern, and surplus to requirements elsewhere on their home turf got scrapped, in many cases, long before they were life expired.

 

So the problem is not only complete unsuitability for BR era layouts, but any usefulness for the SR period being restricted to ones set in ex-LBSCR territory.

 

John

This isn't quite the true picture.

The Brighton was a very conservative line with regards to its coaching stock, and unlike other railways where there were considerable style and design changes at various times, the principles features of the majority of the carriages can be traced back to Stroudley's designs from around 1870. Fairly late to adopt bogie coaches, Robert Billinton managed to build around 500 such vehicles up until 1904, mainly based on 48' underframes. Following changes in management, there was the brief flowering period, of only two or three years, circa 1905, when the magnificent balloon coaches, built to the maximum of the generous LBSC loading gauge, were constructed. However, there were only about 125 of them made, including the earliest motor train trailers. The final wave of construction reverted to the archaic arc roof design, mainly because half the stock was formed by placing old 6 wheeler bodies on new 54' underframes. Some 250 rebuilds, and a similar number of new builds to similar designs, appeared before grouping, whilst apart from the original units for the South London line electrification, which were to a different style, the stock for the overhead electrification was similar to the loco hauled items.

So, at grouping, there would have been around 1,200 bogie coaches on the Brighton's books, only around 10% of them being balloon stock, and half of the rest were around 25 years old, as were the bodies of a quarter of the rest. Given their age, and the fact that over 300 were rebuilt, perhaps for a second time, on new underframes, to create a hundred emu's, it is not surprising that few survived unaltered beyond the thirties.

Some of the balloon coaches were formed into pull-push sets, which would have stayed in the Central district, but given the relative early electrification of the Brighton main line and the coastal lines, there wasn't much other work they could usefully do, and at thirty years old, they had probably earned their keep, and were sent to scrap, although quite a few ended up as service stock. The majority of the pull-push units were of the lower roof style, and they survived in BR days, and once the Westinghouse operating system was available elsewhere, a few gravitated outside the Central area onto the old LSWR and SECR lines, in addition to those coaches, none of them balloons, that had escaped to Vectis.

[Dunsignalling]

Thanks, so the guess is something like over-supply.  I picked up on this because I wondered if there had been some flaw in it of which I was unaware.

 

It is a great pity that Bachmann bottled producing their Period I coaches in pre-1933 lined livery, as they once showed these as part of a forthcoming train pack with a Compound.  I'd have bought that set just for the coaches!

ISTR reading somewhere (probably on here) that the tooling for the composite is kaput.

 

John

Edited January 15, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Edwardian]

ISTR reading somewhere (probably on here) that the tooling for the composite is kaput.

 

John

 

Leaving the way for Bachmann to produce some Bain clerestories then.

[Dunsignalling]

Leaving the way for Bachmann to produce some Bain clerestories then.

I think we are more likely just to see the brake turned into a Mess/Riding Coach to go with the forthcoming Breakdown Crane.

 

I've never really understood why the Compound (apparently in all its guises) seems to have been a slow seller. It's not my cup of tea, but it appears to be very well executed.

 

John  sorry.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[JSpencer]

I think we are more likely just to see the brake turned into a Mess/Riding Coach to go with the forthcoming Breakdown Crane.

 

I've never really understood why the Compound (apparently in all its guises) seems to have been a slow seller. It's not my cup of tea, but it appears to be very well executed.

 

John  sorry.

 

There is of course the old Hornby and Railroad ones so some people may have just been happy with that. Also the ex-Mainline 2P is a competitor.

[Dunsignalling]

There is of course the old Hornby and Railroad ones so some people may have just been happy with that. Also the ex-Mainline 2P is a competitor.

If I were a LMS fan, I don't think I could bear looking at a Hornby compound knowing that I could have something so much better.

 

In my own sphere that would equate to not buying one of Hornby's superb 21st century King Arthurs on the grounds that I already had a Sir Dinadan.......cringe.

 

 

John (till horribly     I'll stop now)

[adb968008]

 Also the ex-Mainline 2P is a competitor.

 

i'd say Hornbys railroad compound was the competitor.

 

The 2p is a different loco.

 

my thoughts are:

i. the Compound was the first to break the ceiling in todays high price climate, it had an rrp of £132 back in 2012, at a time when the Hornby O1 was just announced at £120...

ii. its a retooled loco and being a little less exciting than Truro, the GC Director etc, it didn't "wow"..

iii. being a smaller loco, and being more expensive than bigger ones, So it sat there for too long and ended in the bargain bins.

 

Once the bargain hunters had there fill... there was leftovers, and theres still too many now.

thing is i predict some day this could become sought after, as its unlikely more will be repeated for a long time.

 

But its a good source for replacement kit built 4-4-0 chassis's from the 70's.. easy to remove the cylinders and valve gear, its also useful for fowler tenders for other projects...i just used 3 for factory finished crabs with 41157's late crest/rivetless tender being useful for a 42700 model, and another swapped with 42969. I'm also going to use a 40934 tender for a Jubilee which will have an upgraded chassis and tender now.

Edited January 15, 2018 by adb968008

[JSpencer]

If I were a LMS fan, I don't think I could bear looking at a Hornby compound knowing that I could have something so much better.

 

In my own sphere that would equate to not buying one of Hornby's superb 21st century King Arthurs on the grounds that I already had a Sir Dinadan.......cringe.

 

 

John (till horribly     I'll stop now)

 

If you are a fan, however if there are more important things to buy, it will be delayed. Newcomers may feel less that wow and could easily settle for something cheaper.

 

When I started model railways as a kid in the late 70s, I went for diesels and tank locos (a grand total of 5 locos). Big steamers were more than twice the price and I needed something to pull trains.

The first tender engine was a secondhand Mallard!

 

Last year I brought 15 locos, all high spec (due to the glut of SR releases - which was accumulated over several years), this year another 15, thanks to Ps, B4s, class 07, Brighton Atlantics, 10203, Further H class variations, and one stranger, the  47xx.

Difficult to buy a Nelson on top (repeat model). Had the backlog not existed......

On the similar grounds the H1 is lovely but cannot run with any other RTR stock so will wait and see.

Edited January 15, 2018 by JSpencer

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 Many, many, relatively cheap Hornby 4P's sold over time I suspect. And Bachmann want the sort of money that will land a pacific for a piddly little 4-4-0?

 

Leaving the way for Bachmann to produce some Bain clerestories then.

 Something earlier than an LMS design to parallel the birdcages would seem sensible. There's one large collection of LMS group secondary power in their range to pull them around.

[Richard Jones]

Named February 1926.

 

Don't know when renumbered 2421 but it was after July 1931 but done by January 1933.

 

Modified to composite loading gauge February 1937.

 

Chris KT

Hi Chris,

 

Many thanks - currently on the other side of the world from my bookshelf so couldn't check, but it looks like I should hang on to my pennies and wait to see if Bachmann issue either the H1 or H2 in SR livery with the B - 3 digit number format - at least it saves me committing money I haven't got on a pre-order!

By the way, was the N class mogul ever issued in A-3digit number format?

Cheers

Richard

[GWR8700]

I think we are more likely just to see the brake turned into a Mess/Riding Coach to go with the forthcoming Breakdown Crane.

 

I've never really understood why the Compound (apparently in all its guises) seems to have been a slow seller. It's not my cup of tea, but it appears to be very well executed.

 

John  sorry.

Same here, an absolutely top class model

[Anglian]

So, can anyone tell me what dates for,a) B421 being renumbered 2421, b) when it was named, and c) lowering of cab and boiler fittings to "composite" loading gauge?

Cheers

Richard

 

Richard I've got a reference to the conversion work being done in mid 1935 but I defer to the information given above by Chris45 in specific reference to 2421. I think the references I have must refer to the work starting on the class in 1935 rather than all of them being done in a short period of time.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Anglian